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Originally posted by SykkBoy@Mar 5 2004, 03:08 PM Hmmm, if I can hire a competant Indian programmer for $16K per year at the same skillset level as a US-based one and save that kind of money, I can buy more clothes (that are most likely produced in third-world countries via cheap labor) and buy more electronic goods that are most likely built via cheap foriegn labor (perhaps Mexico) and I can brag about being a good American while waving my US flag that is probably made in China by cheap labor...
the only thing you could brag about in this scenario is that you would be Labret's poster boy for the indoctrinated consumer.
on the contrary, you could save the money, use it to invest in other aspects of you business or in other businesses.
the businessmen and women making the outsourcing decisions do not contemplate such fanciful uses for the proceeds.
On one hand, I'm tired of American dollars going to other countries. My knee jerk reaction is cut everyone off cold except for the handful of countries that supported the Iraq war. Everyone else can go to France and Germany for their handouts.
However, historically inhibiting free trade has NOT improved the overall economy.
The current trends with India also give me some practical concerns. Outsourcing help desk and call centers to India....do we really want the same level of communication with someone who is supposed to be helping us that we get while ordering at Dairy Queen or asking for a Cherry Slurpee at the Quickie Mart? Customers will vote with their feet...
On the technical side, it generally takes a team of 2-3 indians to do the job of one experienced American. They require specific instructions and specs and cannot look at the big picture or be creative. Aministrative and project management chores almost always have to stay here, they're not very good at that either. Also, the company who lets all of the engineering expertise end up in India or anywhere else outside the U.S. is doomed. Intellectual property must also be kept here, it isn't easily defended elsewhere.
With all of that said, outsourcing has it's place. As usual though with any innovation, American business has a tendancy to over do it while blindly looking at the bottom line. When there are repercussions with lost customers and other problems, they typically pull it back to a reasonable level.
Originally posted by Mike AI@Mar 5 2004, 09:16 AM Serge, I am not sure how I feel either. Part of me agrees with WIG, this is the part that beleives in true market capitalism.
However, I have some potential issues with National Defense, and loyalty to fellow Americans.
In todays world, it is legal, so thus businesses almost have to outsource to remain competative.
we're turning into a global economy faster than we expect. I figure the US will catch on in about 6 months then open more doors for US to genrate rev. until then the whole nation will suffer and lose ground on global market share
So, why are people complaining about how other countries are taking their jobs? Why not look at your own country and ask - what can it do to create NEW jobs, and WHY have almost every politician in the western world not done this yet?
Our forefathers did not create the world we live in by complaining - they went out there and fought for it!
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
It's very simple.
An Indian can live on $200/mo for full-time work.
An American can not.
It has nothing to do with the gov't, with governors deciding whether stuff gets outsourced or not, blah blah blah...
American workers are more expensive. Period.
There are no doors to open or even doors to shut... until the current haven of outsourcing (India) starts getting used to the income and things start getting more expensive over there, making the workers there demand more money, folks with the ability to do so are going to hire an Indian for less than 1/4th that they'd pay for an American to do the job.
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Originally posted by Rolo@Mar 6 2004, 05:01 AM So, why are people complaining about how other countries are taking their jobs? Why not look at your own country and ask - what can it do to create NEW jobs, and WHY have almost every politician in the western world not done this yet?
Our forefathers did not create the world we live in by complaining - they went out there and fought for it!
What are they supposed to do?
Tell me please, what can the politicians do to create more $80k per year jobs? Jobs that no one in India/China/Russia can duplicate for their $16k per year salaries?
All of the tax breaks in the world won't help.
New York gave tons of tax breaks to its businesses and still they're leaving in droves (Fulton has been devastated since Nestle picked up and left), same with California and tons of other states... why pay 100 workers $10/hr when you can pay 100 workers $1/hr somewhere else? You'll save yourself $900 per hour by simply moving elsewhere.
What are the politicians supposed to do to combat that?
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What are the politicians supposed to do to combat that?
My short answer would be "Change EVERYTHING", however lets realize a few things:
- jobs which moves from a expensive country to another country will not come back as long as the first country is more expensive. If you want to have new jobs, then you have to CREATE them.
- no matter how cheap labour is in one part of the world, then there are still extra costs, which has little to do with the cheap labour - ex. transportation costs, telecommunication costs etc. those extra costs are following world pricing, and not the local price. This means not all products are good to import - ex. if you need to have made 1.000.000 units in china, then you still need to add transportation, and insurance getting them to the US - sure most of them will still be cheaper, but the bigger the final product is - the more likely it would cost just as much to produce closer to the consumer in a fully automatic factory.
- in time technology will remove more low paying jobs, then what 3rd world countries will take. Ex. If you build a fully automatic factory, which runs 24/7 with a minium of staff, then you can produce cheaper, than any factory employing hundreds of chinese. If you build a fully automatic factory in china, then you would still have to add transportation etc. cost to the final product, so it would make more sense to have that factory placed close to the market.
- raw materials are plenty on most continents, no matter if you live in China or the US you have access to them. And just like factories it pays to have fully automated the process of getting them.
- tax is a local issue, however its a world wide problem... this means that if goverments stop their uncontrolled desire to get taxes, then money will start to move to their regions, and not away as it is now. This would mean more investments local = more local low paying jobs.
- education is one of the best ways to get the tools to learn new things - so why do most of us only attend education in the first part of our life, when we know that world is changing all the time? If your skill is no longer needed, then you need to learn a new skill.
etc.
There are tons of other issues to think about, and a long answer will be that - long.... so I will stick to my short answer - "Change EVERYTHING"
Last edited by Rolo at Mar 6 2004, 06:27 AM
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
I hate to say it but a lot of Americans priced themselves out of jobs.
I remember going to visit colleges with the kid and being told over and over again that a graduate in CS would be making around $80K a year. Yes, it was a sales pitch, but I know for a fact there were many who were making $60-80K their first year out of college. Add in medical insurance, vacation, profit sharing, 401K and you're looking at a ton o' expenses per employee. When the economy was booming, no one blinked, but obviously when the screws are tightened, you have to find ways to save. The ones in those jobs had already foolishly ramped their living expenses to match their income and those graduating took it as an insult to accept a $30K a year job.
Ditto with the manufacturing business. Unions have their members making $20 an hour to put tab A into tab B. Plus the benefits and again - a sector which literally priced themselves out of jobs.
The recent grocery strike in CA was a perfect example of workers completely unwilling to make concessions in order to keep their jobs. Some of cashiers were making $10-15 an hour, plus benefits. This is for unskilled labor! I don't remember the exact number, but they were being asked to pay more into their health insurance and the amount they were asked to pay would have been a dream figure for those of us who pay for our own insurance. But they didn't care - they didn't want things to change and screw anyone who argued with them. I strongly suspect if these jobs could have been shipped offshore they would have at that point....maybe talk on the phone to your cashier?
Fewer and fewer people are going to be getting degrees - colleges are raising their prices at an
extraordinary clip and I know here in GA, the number of elementary, middle and high schools being built is phenomenal, but the colleges aren't expanding to prepare for these kids when they graduate. The very rich with $$$ and the very poor with good minds will be the ones attending college in 10-15 years, IMHO.
Going through the AF situation has been an eye opener. They are meeting their recruiting goals in record time. There are college graduates going in as enlisted. They've graduated with a technical degree, can't find a job and the OCS is filling up at incredible rates. Even then, I know from experience it's VERY hard to get into the AF. In addition, the AF is currently experiencing a 67% reenlistment rate - that's almost unheard of but these guys and girls are realizing getting a guaranteed income, free medical care, food and housing is better than what their counter parts are getting in the private sector.
Again, this is obviously IMHO, but from the outside looking in, it looks like most of the blame can be put on the American worker who wants it all and is unwilling to budge until it's too late.
Originally posted by Rolo@Mar 6 2004, 05:01 AM Our forefathers did not create the world we live in by complaining - they went out there and fought for it!
Originally posted by Peaches@Mar 6 2004, 09:29 AM Again, this is obviously IMHO, but from the outside looking in, it looks like most of the blame can be put on the American worker who wants it all and is unwilling to budge until it's too late.
So, the American Worker demanding higher wages is causing the problem ??
Not the American "bosses" demanding to hold on to more of the profits ??
If you check around, you will find that when a U.S. company begins outsourcing, they don't generally lower their prices. Which means that the owners are paying less for their product and selling it for the same or higher price to the consumer and pocketing a higher return on their investment.
Originally posted by sarettah@Mar 6 2004, 08:03 AM Let's declare war on India !!!!
When we are done with the Middle East, and have secured oil prices + dollar as the world currency, then we can make a few strategic factory bombings in Asia.... Bush needs your vote to make it happen
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
American workers demanding higher wages is ok... hard to blame evolution on anybody in particular, but its ok to blame those who refuses to adapt. The cat is out of the bag...
__________________ "Chaos is the law of nature, order is the dream of man."
~Henry B. Adams (Historian) 1838-1918
03-05-2004
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