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You would have to know far more than is taught in today's schools to truly understand. 'The Stars and Bars' has actually nothing to do with racism in most cases except what is in the eye of the beholder. The Civil war had little to do with slavery and everything to do with states' rights. It was a good thing that it ended slavery; but that was not the reason it happened. Further, what actually happened during 'Reconstruction' was so unjust that it created a separate group of states that felt that they were bastard stepchildren of the U.S. For that reason, many people today still want to fly that flag to say something like, "We have not forgotten.".
In fact, there is a hell of a lot less racism in the South today than in the North; but certain people, using isolated anecdotal cases, keep making it seem otherwise. The flap about the flag is one of those cases. Keeping in mind that the SCOTUS has ruled that flag-burning is a protected form of speech, are the people who wish to FLY that flag second-class citizens?
I have not forgotten What the Japanese did...I don't discriminate against them; but I shall never forget. Does that make me racist?
I am happy we in the US celebrate Lincoln's birthday and not Jefferson Davis'.
As far as the confederate flag, I think it is not a necessarily a racist symbol or rather it is only one when interpreted as such. It obviously is to many people but the "South" is also symbolic to some people of a way of life. [Lynyrd Skynyrd, cheap beer, and a pickup truck?].
Here's a pre-world war II symbol used by Coca Cola. What do you think?
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Originally posted by Torone@May 12 2003, 07:02 AM I have not forgotten What the Japanese did...I don't discriminate against them; but I shall never forget. Does that make me racist?
That's MY $0.02...
You must be older than I thought. I wasn't even alive then.
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Originally posted by Colin@May 12 2003, 04:04 AM Forest,
I am happy we in the US celebrate Lincoln's birthday and not Jefferson Davis'.
As far as the confederate flag, I think it is not a necessarily a racist symbol or rather it is only one when interpreted as such. It obviously is to many people but the "South" is also symbolic to some people of a way of life. [Lynyrd Skynyrd, cheap beer, and a pickup truck?].
Here's a pre-world war II symbol used by Coca Cola. What do you think?
colin Torone
Every Single person I have met down here BAR NONE who flies the reb flag uses the N word like the breath they air. and there is a HUGE population of people like that here.
It is VERRRRY disturbing to me and I constantly tell anyone who uses that word NOT to use it around me in ANY context
Now maybe there are people who fly the flag and think otherwise but to date this has not been my experience
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Originally posted by Torone@May 12 2003, 07:02 AM The Civil war had little to do with slavery and everything to do with states' rights.
I would argue that the Civil War was about both state's rights and slavery but more about slavery. There were no other issues that were that hotly contested.
All the states in the Confederacy were states where slavery was legal. All the states in the Union had abolished slavery. If the Civil War were more about state's rights than slavery the states that seceded wouldn't have all been slave states and vice versa. Slavery was THE dividing issue. Slavery DEFINED North and South.
One of the two documents that came out of South Carolina's secession convention was addressed to the "Slaveholding States of the United States". Pretty clear it was important to them.
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Originally posted by Torone@May 12 2003, 07:21 AM I wasn't kidding when I said that I actually heard the first broadcast of FDR's 'a day which will live in infamy' speech.
How old are you, Torone?
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BTW, have we reached the point where 'free speech' is only for certain people, when there is a list of proscribed words? It does seem that way to me. When that becomes policy, you can expect the list to grow dramatically. Let's see...
The n-word
Jap
spic
Communist
More to be added when the C-word's control is stronger.
Like I said, I don't believe in racism because I am a 'half-breed' (part Indian, part white); but free speech has to be for everyone, or it will be for no one.
As for the swastika, before Hitler stole it for his symbol, it was a religious symbol...
"Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.
Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings. During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II. "
As for my age, it is a part of my mystique, which is mostly all that remains of what (and who) I once was...
I went to school in the South before Political Correctness was heard of; and yes, I have heard that 'history is written by the victors'. If that is true, then what is taught in today's schools becomes even more frightening by virtue of its' connotations.
The civil war was about many things, but State Rights - the 10th Amendment which has been ignored since then - was at the top of the list. How else can you explain the entire South fielding huge armies and making sacrifices when only 5% of the population actually owned slaves?
Back to the flag - it is a flag that represents many things, including the brave soldiers who fought during the Civil War - many who fought honorably. ( Infact I could make the arguement that the South fought more honorable then the North, especially when the North was losing.)
It is flag - people really should get over it.... but political correctness is interferng into everything....
I personally like the CSA main flag, which has the stars in a blue field in a circle, and a few red/white stripes - called the Stars and Bars. It is all a peice of history.... one cannot outlaw history....
We as a nation have MANY more things to worry about then a stupid flag....
And as far as racism goes, I have seen MUCH more of it up North and out West then I have down South.... especially in New Orleans... of course New Orleans is different and even before the Civil War had many "Free Blacks" - some who were wealthy and actually owned slaves....
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Do they want to outlaw this one as well? Or only the battle flag?
Maybe we should outlaw the American Flag as well since slavery was legal befroe the civil war under that flag.... and of course eve afterteh Civil War - the Ammancipation Proclomation was a fraud - it only freed slaves in those States who have rebeled - not in the north, not universaly in the United States. It was a PR move.... to pump up the North who was getting its ass kicked by Lee and the Southern Armies....
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These same arguments come up every time, when we have this discussion.
Let's see, someone will undoubtedly accuse someone else of being too "politically correct" (this is Torone's claim to fame).
Someone else will say that the flag is not a symbol of racism, because that is not what it represented 150 years ago.
Someone else will say that "free speech" is only for some people (this is usually said with a sarcastic tone).
Here's my take...I don't think it should be outlawed in any way shape or form. Do I think it is a symbol of racism and bigotry? Yes, and I doubt anyone would disagree that is how the "Rebel Flag" is used today.
If people want to fly the "Rebel Flag", fly the damn thing. If people want to use the "n" word, use it...I don't give a shit. I don't want anyone telling me how to live, think, or believe.
I know this will probably not go over well, but if you want to burn the "Rebel Flag" or the US Flag...burn away. It is a form of protest and as long as you are not infringing on someone elses rights, I don't see a problem with it. And you never know when you may feel it is necessary to protest against the United States for something you feel very strongly about.
Originally posted by Mike AI@May 12 2003, 09:32 AM
Do they want to outlaw this one as well? Or only the battle flag?
Maybe we should outlaw the American Flag as well since slavery was legal befroe the civil war under that flag.... and of course eve afterteh Civil War - the Ammancipation Proclomation was a fraud - it only freed slaves in those States who have rebeled - not in the north, not universaly in the United States. It was a PR move.... to pump up the North who was getting its ass kicked by Lee and the Southern Armies....
It was more an attack on the South's economy... The southern economy was based on cotton and the economics of cotten, much like the economics of Southern California farming today was based on slavery (today we call them migrant farmworkers, but the economics is basically the same). By pronouncing the slaves in the rebel states as "free", it was hoped that the south's economic back would be broken. With no slaves, there would be no cotton harvest.. That combined with the Union's control of most of the manufacturing capability of the time ensured that the south would have no viable means to raise money.
As far as the flag goes. I was born and raised in New York, I have lived in New York, California, Florida, North Carolina and Missouri. I was raised to believe that all people are the same, doesnt matter race, creed, nationality, etc... I take each individual person at a time and attempt to never prejudge. I have absolutely no problem with the confederate flag. It is part of the United States of America's history. An extremely important part. If a certain population of our country choosers to identify itself witrh this flag, that is their choice. If other portions of our population choose to hate those who identify with the flag (and vice versa) that is their choice. The USA is all about choice, is it not?
But to outlaw the confederate flag, in any manner, is a direct abridgement on the free speech rights of those who choose to display the flag. The same with swastickas, crosses, mangers, international flags or any other symbol of a persons affiliation with any group or cause.
To try to get rid of the confederate flag is also an attempt to rewrite history. History should not be open to change, it either happened or it didn't. Interpretation of history should always be open to change, but interpretation should never be presented as fact. So, what the confederate flag means should always be open to discussion.
The descendants of those that rode and fought under the confederate flag should be allowed to be proud of what their forefathers did and who they were. These were also brave Americans. They fought and died for what they believed was a better course for their states to be taking. For a person to be proud that their ancestors fought bravely and proudly, no matter what the cause they fought for, is a right.
I'm from a area where the battle flag is part of our culture, most folks who are "From" here have relatives that fought in that war, my great,great...grandfather walked from Virginia back to miss after server 4 years, plus a ton of other family members(my dad is a family tree nut and proud southern) My family was mainly sharecroppers who were barely more than slaves themselves but fought for there country(south at that time) not for slaves they never had or could afford. If the flag wasn't used by various hate groups in the late 1800 early 1900 then we wouldn't have this thread.
No I don't have a flag hanging off my truck, I do have one on my arm that serves to remind me of my family and heritage that I'm very proud of
no hate here, just pride
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Originally posted by T-Rav@May 12 2003, 11:25 AM Is someone trying to outlaw the Rebel Flag or something? That keeps coming up.
I seriously doubt that someone is trying to get it outlawed, that sounds silly to me.
They are trying to remove it from the SC flag. They already removed it from the GA flag, which caused a lot of grief because they did it in private and all of a sudden, we had a new flag flying. What's so hypocritical about it is that the new flag actually HAD the rebel flag ON it!
Now there's yet a THIRD flag that started flying last week.
The rebel flag is also not on clothing (T-shirts) in most schools, but it's on Confederate license plates.
It's a mess. No one I know that likes the "rebel" flag is racist, just proud of their heritage. I blame the big stink over it on all the yankees moving here.
I wonder how people would react if any state in the nation with a strong Germanic population decided to adopt a state flag with a swatztika as part of it? After all, the Nazi era was only 30 years or so, and it has it's roots in German mythology.
Yes - I know the example is extreme - at least, it's going to seem extreme to some white folks in denial, and it will be portrayed as extreme by folks who either don't have or don't want to use a little simple common sense. This arguement doesn't have a fucking thing to do with the Civil War, no matter how hard try to put it into those terms.
I come from a border state, and there were more rebels than Yankees on my mother's side of the family, including folks who rode with Quantril. My father's great-grandfather was part of the militia that protected the Armory in St. Louis and kept Missouri in the Union. I've heard every fucking argument possible about this question.
My Southern friends proclaiming their heritage seem to want to forget what that flag has been used for over the last 70-80 years. It's all well and good to recall the glories of the confederacy - unfortunately, like the mystic origins of the Swatstika in ancient German mythology, it's been more than obscured by recent events.
Most of the states that include the stars and bars in their state flags did so in the 40s and 50s - in response to efforts to desegregate. When most people today see the confederate flag they see George Wallace standing on the schoolhouse steps. They hear Trent Lott's hero proclaiming that desegregation will have to be imposed on the South. They think of Bull Connor and church bombers and the KKK and the White Citizens Councils, "night riders" and militias.
Even in the most begnin analysis, all the historical arguements regarding "heritage" leave out the fact that the flag has been something other than what it originally was.
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@May 12 2003, 10:42 AM I don't know why I bother, but ...
No one is trying to outlaw it. They are trying to remove it from various and sundry state flags.
Well, I'm glad you bother PD...and I agree. I think that flag is, if nothing else, very disrespectful.
Where it on your shirt, put on your truck, fly it at your house...who cares. But I think the state should at least consider the fact that it represents racism.
Which it sounds like they are doing. I don't see how that can be a bad thing.
PD, I agree with T-Rav, I do apprecaite that you do bother.... It would be boring without you!
Having said that.... you are right the battle flag has been taken over my some racists, but so have many other harmless icons. We should educate people about the flag and the war, and not let a bunch of skin heads destroy Southern Culture.
Also, as far as having it on State Flags, I think the statee should have elections and vote.... simple as that.... There should still be some reminents of State rights...
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Originally posted by PornoDoggy@May 12 2003, 11:42 AM I don't know why I bother, but ...
I wonder how people would react if any state in the nation with a strong Germanic population decided to adopt a state flag with a swatztika as part of it? After all, the Nazi era was only 30 years or so, and it has it's roots in German mythology.
Let's note that GA didn't JUST decide to adopt it. It's been flying for decades. It's just been in the last few years that there have been complaints and this rush to get it taken off.
Personally, I don't care either way. I don't see why people get all bothered over "symbols". And as I said before, I'm not sure why states even NEED flags.
Originally posted by Colin@May 12 2003, 07:37 AM All the states in the Confederacy were states where slavery was legal. All the states in the Union had abolished slavery.
I was wrong about that. Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, and Missouri were slave states that did not secede.
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Originally posted by Torone@May 12 2003, 10:51 AM Please note that Pd completely blew off the free speech issue...
Torone - if you want to fly the loser's flag, feel free to do so. No matter how hard you try and spin it, that symbol means the same thing to millions of Americans that the Nazi symbols mean. As a matter of fact, the modern Nazis and the skinheads and the other bottom-feeders are quite fond of it themselves.
If you are comfortable associating yourself with what that flag has come to represent, I have no problem with it.
My comments ONLY addressed the inclusion of the "stars and bars" on State flags and state insignia.
And Mike, while in theory I agree with
Quote:
We should educate people about the flag and the war, and not let a bunch of skin heads destroy Southern Culture.
I think you are far too late - you have no more chance of overcoming the stigma that those folks have put on the stars and bars than you do explaining the cultural importance of the Swatztika to the Anti-Defamation League.
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Living in Maryland (south of the Mason-Dixon and considered a "border state") I've always seen the Rebel flag to represent the Southern way of living. More congenial and slower paced than the (perceived) Northern pace of life.
Being a Marylander gives a good perspective between the North and South as Baltimore is a big city with somewhat Northern ways while our Eastern Shore is very Southern
Bottom line is I think it's fine to fly a Rebel Flag as long as it's for the right reasons
Edit - right reasons being to represent a heritage and a way of life
If someone flies the Rebel Flag to represent prejudice and hatred they're a sad fucking idiot and should be treated as such
Last edited by Vick at May 12 2003, 11:23 AM
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The large view political principle that caused the Civil War was state's rights. The particular issue that caused the Civil War was slavery. South Carolina's secession was a response to Lincoln's election because he was an abolitionist and this was probably the last straw for them on the whole issue of state's rights. Confederate men fought largely because they were being invaded and that's the usual response to such things. Many Union men fought to preserve the Union. Quite a few were drafted and didn't care. Everyone fought for freedom.
Symbols mean different things to different people. To many people, the rebel flag is a symbol of racism and to many others it's a symbol of the Southern way of life. Some people are very offended when they see it. Others are offended when they are told it is wrong for them to fly it. Everyone is right.
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Personally, the only flag I fly has 13 stripes and 50 stars; but I believe that, as I posted earlier, if freedom of speech and expression is not for everyone, it is for no one. I took an oath to protect, preserve, and defend the Constitution; and no one ever released me from that oath.
If we must allow every idiot out there to have his/her say, even if it is calling me either a 'honky', a 'half-breed', or a 'chauvinist'; then so be it; but I feel that the other side MUST have the same freedoms, or those freedoms mean nothing.
Now, go ahead and pick THAT apart, for by so doing, you are attempting to subvert and destroy our Constitution; and I can think of nothing more Anti-American than that.
Originally posted by Torone@May 12 2003, 02:26 PM If we must allow every idiot out there to have his/her say, even if it is calling me either a 'honky', a 'half-breed', or a 'chauvinist'; then so be it; but I feel that the other side MUST have the same freedoms, or those freedoms mean nothing.
I couldn't agree more. Sometimes dealing with idiots, morons, and others is a bit of a pain in the ass, but all things considered I believe the pros outweigh the cons.
The price of freedom isn't always cheap.
One of the many things that make this country great.
Originally posted by Colin@May 12 2003, 08:37 AM Why the debate? Everyone is right.
The large view political principle that caused the Civil War was state's rights. The particular issue that caused the Civil War was slavery. South Carolina's secession was a response to Lincoln's election because he was an abolitionist and this was probably the last straw for them on the whole issue of state's rights. Confederate men fought largely because they were being invaded and that's the usual response to such things. Many Union men fought to preserve the Union. Quite a few were drafted and didn't care. Everyone fought for freedom.
Symbols mean different things to different people. To many people, the rebel flag is a symbol of racism and to many others it's a symbol of the Southern way of life. Some people are very offended when they see it. Others are offended when they are told it is wrong for them to fly it. Everyone is right.
Well said.
You basically summed up what I was thinking as I read this thread. Very well put Colin. Lots of good points made on this topic folks.
05-12-2003
What's so hypocritical about it is that the new flag actually HAD the rebel flag ON it! 
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