IMF writes off poor countries’ debt

[gold4dinar]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9467859/

WASHINGTON - Eighteen of the poorest nations will have their debts to the International Monetary Fund wiped out after rich countries bridged differences on Saturday that threatened a pact first signed this summer.


African countries welcome deal
African nations welcomed the deal but wanted to ensure that there would be no extra strings attached to receiving the money, and called for more nations to become eligible.

“The devil is clearly in the implementation details,” said Cosme Sehlin, Benin’s finance minister.

The World Bank said the debt deal could boost receipients’ annual economic growth by half a percentage point.

“The deal that has been sealed by the Fund this weekend will provide urgently needed money for education and health care,” said Max Lawson, policy adviser at Oxfam.

“We’ve seen a real breakthrough on debt cancellation by the IMF. The stage is now set for World Bank shareholders to fulfil their part of the bargain tomorrow.”

[JR]

you forgot to add "again" to the thread title.

[Dravyk]

I want to be a country too.

[JR]

Originally Posted by Dravyk

I want to be a country too.

Thats not all you have to do to qualify. You also have to become very corrupt and spend a couple centuries proving that you can't even hold a goverment together for two years unless its a military dictatorship... make sure you have constant war (which is usefull - its like nuclear blackmail for undeveloped countries)... throw in some genocides here and there and show absolutely no hope for it to ever change in our lifetime... THEN beg for money non-stop by telling western powers what they want to hear... but once you get them to give you money, buy private jets and villas in spain with it. then complain later that those same people are fucking you on the interest and get them to waive that. THEN - get them to forgive the debt all together. Once all debt is forgiven, you are then free to start the process over again by telling everyone what they want to hear and make symbolic gestures indicating that you are evolving towards a free market and full democracy.... but make it clear that you just need a little financial help!

then, once everyone indicates that they are getting tired of your shit... start complaining to the WTO that you are poor because the trade rules are set against you and the west doesn't care about your problems... and start throwing around some anti american rhetoric as you launch your next genocide. you will be well rewarded for this behavior. guaranteed! racism helps too. make sure your country is not filled with white, anglo-saxon protestants - or you will have a hard time justifying the fact that your country is a basket case.

[PornoDoggy]

Oh, kee-rist in a sidecar. Save the fucking white people?

Yes, all of the problems that exist in Africa are purely African in nature. None of them could possibly have some of their roots in centuries of exploitation by white, anglo-saxon protestants - first through colonialism, then through neocolonialism and the cold war.

"Oh, by the way, blokes. Sorry to tell you the rules have changed - all that corruption that we encouraged for so many years is no longer socially acceptable. The distrust between ethinic groups that we found so useful when we needed to play one against the other so we could keep our control - fergitaboutit. Sure, it's a shame your entire continent is awash in weapons even though the struggle between the commies and the capitalists are over - not our problem. And while we're at it - don't ask the west to take steps against the multinational corporations that pay ten times more in graft monthly than they do in wages to your citizens annually - that's your problem to deal with."

BTW - I don't believe the above is all of the problem. It's merely the half that JR left off.

[JR]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

Oh, kee-rist in a sidecar. Save the fucking white people?

Yes, all of the problems that exist in Africa are purely African in nature. None of them could possibly have some of their roots in centuries of exploitation by white, anglo-saxon protestants - first through colonialism, then through neocolonialism and the cold war.

"Oh, by the way, blokes. Sorry to tell you the rules have changed - all that corruption that we encouraged for so many years is no longer socially acceptable. The distrust between ethinic groups that we found so useful when we needed to play one against the other so we could keep our control - fergitaboutit. Sure, it's a shame your entire continent is awash in weapons even though the struggle between the commies and the capitalists are over - not our problem. And while we're at it - don't ask the west to take steps against the multinational corporations that pay ten times more in graft monthly than they do in wages to your citizens annually - that's your problem to deal with."

BTW - I don't believe the above is all of the problem. It's merely the half that JR left off.

when does the past, whatever it might have been cease being an excuse for everything? every ethnic group on the planet can claim a similar grievence. when does a country finally have to make its own future and accept responsibility and stand on its own two feet economically? when do people become accountable?

when does it all stop being someone elses "fault"?

[Dravyk]

Originally Posted by JR

when does the past, whatever it might have been cease being an excuse for everything? every ethnic group on the planet can claim a similar grievence. when does a country finally have to make its own future and accept responsibility and stand on its own two feet economically? when do people become accountable?

when does it all stop being someone elses "fault"?

Both of you have points.

I agree with PD, it doesn't happen overnight. Here's a list of when African nations declared independence. http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/ch...ependence2.htm Notice the bulk are in the 60s and 70s. One or two in the late 50s. None before. Zimbabwe was 1980.

India is just starting to get parts of its country on its feet and that was mid 40s. Japan, with a similiar time, got on it's feet comparitively quickly. But factor in that the countries didn't get that kind of money Japan got (war reconstruction versus colonial empire leaving) and of course the greatly smaller land area and population of Japan vs. India.

So we do have with the above some sort of "time line". Yes, there comes a point where it has to stop. But judging from experience (above) of other countries and how long it takes, we're not there, JR, to close the door and say, fine, now it's your problem. (In fact, you can thank the colonial powers who left them with nothing behind FOR the problem to begin with.)

[Dravyk]

Oh yeah. One more thing. If and when we get to the stage where enough time has actually passed ... and we say you're now on your own ... and at that point they have no cleaned up their act ...

I'm sure some future "Bushian" will happily declare all the countries in Africa as having WMDs, go in, pick a side, kill everyone they can off on that side, and then help the other side create a democratic country with their own constitution, declare victory, and then invade the neighboring state and start the entire process down the line until all countires are hit.

[PornoDoggy]

JR, if you read what I wrote you will see that I said

I don't believe the above is all of the problem. It's merely the half that JR left off.

If you still think your question is valid after reading that statement, there is no possible way we can communicate on this issue. The end of colonialism in much of Africa occured within my lifetime. While stationed in Portugal (76) I met career military men who'd spent 15-20 years fighting in Africa; I met retired Belgians when I was in Spain who'd spent even longer.

If you think that the cumulative effects of centuries of explotation can be overcome in the matter of a few decades, then I'll drop out of the conversation gladly.

I have no desire to attempt to engage in a conversation based on Randian philosofantasy.

[JR]

Originally Posted by PornoDoggy

JR, if you read what I wrote you will see that I said

If you still think your question is valid after reading that statement, there is no possible way we can communicate on this issue. The end of colonialism in much of Africa occured within my lifetime. While stationed in Portugal (76) I met career military men who'd spent 15-20 years fighting in Africa; I met retired Belgians when I was in Spain who'd spent even longer.

If you think that the cumulative effects of centuries of explotation can be overcome in the matter of a few decades, then I'll drop out of the conversation gladly.

I have no desire to attempt to engage in a conversation based on Randian philosofantasy.

PD, i read what you wrote. you made the comment that there are other cause and effect relationships and i question the validity of those remarks a little.

why can't that be discussed?

it has nothing to do with anything other than the current reality that exists and that political correctness will not allow us to address in an open and honest way.

i dont think the "cummulative effects of centuries of exploitation" have any role whatsoever. was that what drove two tribes to slaughter each other causing 2,000,000 deaths? is that what is causing Sudanese to do the same thing today? i dont believe that.

its a lawless and corrupt place. the entire continent. what can't we just call it that... why can't we start calling it what it is? why do we have to keep tap dancing around the issues by throwing money at people who will never benefit from it?

i can argue all day long that i killed my dad because i did not get a pony when i was 8... but i still have to accept responsibility for what i did and the only one who can answer for what i became as a result of whatever "cause" is ultimately me. giving me a pony after the fact as a nice token "feel good" gesture is not going to solve the problem or address my real issues... or make me a better person. at that point, i am a murderer and psychopath.

[PornoDoggy]

I don't recall apologizing or defending the Africans who exploit their own people. I offered what I thought were some pretty rational reasons why they might exist.

Centuries of economic and political exploitation did not create the animosities between the Tutsies and the Hutus. (Perhaps when Africa is further along, it will be able to obtain the efficincies of scale in slaughter that white protestants did 60-some years ago.)

One could rationally argue, I suppose, that political oppression and fiscal/political explotation prevented the evolution of the sort of regional governmental infrastructures that could have acted to stop it before it got to 2,000,000 slaughtered.

Not, however, with someone who trots out psychobabble about his daddy and a pony. As a veteran of a discussion or two over the last thirty-odd years, I recognize a rugged individualist when I see one.

The key word is rational. It seems to me the height of irrationality to argue that centuries of oppression are irrelevant to contemporary situations, be it African geopolitics or American sociology.

I'd sooner argue the relationship of Jesus to God with an Orthodox Rabbi, a Jesuit, and a Shitte Iman.

[gold4dinar]

no reports about protestors, but they have been there


About 100 people (activists) delayed IMF and World Bank delegates from getting to their meetings on time this morning by blocking traffic at intersections surrounding the Renaissance Mayflour Hotel where the delegates were staying.


they know something that we dont but media wont report this.