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Solar Billing · 02-21-2004

Right now, you have no card product, correct? -

Correct, although we will have ATM withdrawal in the next 6-9 months, at least that is our plan
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Next, on to the Paypal/ePassporte scenarios you are describing. First I dont think you have a grasp of how funding for either of the two works. Paypal is funded from a bank account, or in some merchant cases, the use of someone's credit card in order to make a purchase. ePassporte is funded either via wire for the commercial accounts, or through a credit card for personal accounts. Your system will work with neither, without even bringing up the fraud control issues that are very real, one of the reasons why neither ePassporte nor Paypal accepts cross transactions from the other, nor ever will most likely, under the current banking rules and card association regulations. The fact that they are competitors is irrelevant in this matter, I will point out. -

Incorrect. Our system works with PayPal right now, and we are adding ePassporte as well. Our system is funded through all of the methods you mentioned, wire transfer, credit card, bank account, and also 900#, checks, and perhaps Western Union if we decide to implement it, etc. As I said, we have internal fraud control procedures that we have worked on with the bank and Visa, which occur after an account is funded. Now granted, I suppose if a persons PayPal account is a complete fraud, and they then use that fraudulent account to fund their Solar Billing account, there may be an issue, however, there would now be multiple levels of protection – the methods put into place by PayPal, or whomever, coupled with ours
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Next, can you please explain this again?
"ANSWER: As long as the surfer has funds in his account, we don't need the passkey to do a rebill. It will automatically come from his Solar Billing account. If there are insufficient funds, the system is set up to automatically make an ACH transfer to fund the account. "

What you appear to be saying is surely not what you are saying -- which I read to mean that if a surfers card gets a soft decline, you will initiate an ACH from his bank account to reload his Solar Billing account. Perhaps American Express can get away with something like this, but then again they are Amex and not Solar Billing and they control their own cardholder base exclusively. I am referring to their ExpressPay product for anyone who just got lost in that reference. –

You interpreted that correctly, and again, we have the full blessing of the involved companies to do it.
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And of course, last but not least, your continued reference to importing databases from IBill and CCBill. Perhaps with all your previous billing experience you have come to realize that IBill and CCBill are the owners of record of those consumer databases, and that site owners do not simply instruct them to move the rebills over to someone else. A few of the larger companies out there have agreements with their processors saying that IF their processor cannot run their transactions for some reason, they will be given access to their database to move it to another legitimate IPSP, provided the merchant banks who handle the IPSP business agree -- that is the only instance of which I am aware that someone using an IPSP model is allowed to move their database under the current Visa/MC regulations. I would also like to see the statement that IBill made that gives you cause to say they will not be in adult processing any more please. Perhaps you are confusing Intercept and IBill, but surely not, since you must know who's on first and what's going on in the outfield and the locker room? -

I realize that the aforementioned companies are the owners of the databases you are referencing, and the complications that arise from that, and you are on the right track as to how we plan to do it. For the IBill issue, I do not have a statement directly from Ibill stating that they are getting out of the adult biz. My previous statement was that I had heard that to be the case – not from anyone directly at IBill, but from an individual involved in marketing of that particular industry. I did not mean to imply that his word is gospel on the topic, I was merely stating that were that to be the case, our strategy would be different than that of CCBill, for example, and that we have already devised a way to handle that situation if necessary.

While I understand your reluctance to share with us your 'methods' of porting rebills, you need to understand the reluctance of webmasters to use your service when you can't explain to us how it works - and I personally don't believe its possible - therefore its up to you to get me to believe this works if you want me as a customer. This is the fine line you have to play between marketing and development ... we all understand how difficult that is ;-)

You explained on air something about taking control of the IBill account on the behalf of your clients - but i'm still confused about how that will help get rebills OUT of that processor. Based on your explanation, my first thought is that you want the account in your name so you can steal my rebills - I can't see what the advantage is going to be for me -

The only way, as pointed out earlier, to get the rebills out of the processor is through an agreement to do so. However,, your second guess is sort of correct. For people that don’t want to, or can’t afford to, pay the extra fees, and don’t want to risk losing their rebills, we will handle them for them. Not in our name, but as a joint agreement, where we would in effect, hold the rebills in trust for the individual. We would pay the fees that they didn’t want to pay, thereby eliminating the risk of cancellation, and the trust account prevents anyone from “stealing” your rebills. Now as I said earlier, if the info I have regarding IBill is accurate, this trust agreement will not be necessary in that instance.

My other concern is your carefree attitude about chargebacks ... being that you are holding a merchant account at deutchbank (i think?) which you then give your clients a 'sub account' off that merchant account - you seem to have absolutely NO intrastructure in place to handle this very important chargeback issue. Your explanation that there can't be a chargeback due to the way the service is purchased is naive ... Having had conversations with reps from deutchbank very recently it appears to me that we both have very different information on what is allowed and not allowed through their bank. –

Your assumption as to how our system is set up is flawed. We are in no way allowing anyone to use our merchant account, other than us. There are absolutely no sub-accounts off of our account. That system is an aggregator system, which we are not. I posted on the other board that first they thought we were a bank. Then they thought we were an aggregator. Then they thought we were 3rd party. Finally, they realized that we are none of these, and that we are a new animal. On that other post I also said how one of the main people at the bank fought very hard to get us approved for one reason. So that once we were out there, he could offer the same services to all the copycats that will be coming after us! Perhaps you just didn’t get in touch with the right people over at the bank. ;-)

What type of volume have you put through this system up until now? I want to know how many tens of thousands of transactions you have processed without a chargeback - not a guess of what you think will happen or should happen but an actual proven system with numbers to back it up. –

Obviously we have not run tens of thousands of transactions through – we just launched!

Have you run multiple sub merchants off this merchant account which solar billing holds yet? –

Again, there are no sub-merchant accounts allowed, nor are they needed.

What type of clients are you going to accept into Solar Billing? Spammers? Beastiality sites? Who will you be processing along side my sites which also have the same billing descriptor? –

There will be no kiddies, animals, or spammers. We will look at them, and have the final say, not because we want to censor anyone, but because we will not process those sites that are universally considered illegal. As for spam, personally we just hate it.

02-21-2004	#22
Solar Billing Members Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 12	Right now, you have no card product, correct? - Correct, although we will have ATM withdrawal in the next 6-9 months, at least that is our plan ----------------------------------------------------------- Next, on to the Paypal/ePassporte scenarios you are describing. First I dont think you have a grasp of how funding for either of the two works. Paypal is funded from a bank account, or in some merchant cases, the use of someone's credit card in order to make a purchase. ePassporte is funded either via wire for the commercial accounts, or through a credit card for personal accounts. Your system will work with neither, without even bringing up the fraud control issues that are very real, one of the reasons why neither ePassporte nor Paypal accepts cross transactions from the other, nor ever will most likely, under the current banking rules and card association regulations. The fact that they are competitors is irrelevant in this matter, I will point out. - Incorrect. Our system works with PayPal right now, and we are adding ePassporte as well. Our system is funded through all of the methods you mentioned, wire transfer, credit card, bank account, and also 900#, checks, and perhaps Western Union if we decide to implement it, etc. As I said, we have internal fraud control procedures that we have worked on with the bank and Visa, which occur after an account is funded. Now granted, I suppose if a persons PayPal account is a complete fraud, and they then use that fraudulent account to fund their Solar Billing account, there may be an issue, however, there would now be multiple levels of protection – the methods put into place by PayPal, or whomever, coupled with ours -------------------------------------------------------------- Next, can you please explain this again? "ANSWER: As long as the surfer has funds in his account, we don't need the passkey to do a rebill. It will automatically come from his Solar Billing account. If there are insufficient funds, the system is set up to automatically make an ACH transfer to fund the account. " What you appear to be saying is surely not what you are saying -- which I read to mean that if a surfers card gets a soft decline, you will initiate an ACH from his bank account to reload his Solar Billing account. Perhaps American Express can get away with something like this, but then again they are Amex and not Solar Billing and they control their own cardholder base exclusively. I am referring to their ExpressPay product for anyone who just got lost in that reference. – You interpreted that correctly, and again, we have the full blessing of the involved companies to do it. --------------------------------------------------------- And of course, last but not least, your continued reference to importing databases from IBill and CCBill. Perhaps with all your previous billing experience you have come to realize that IBill and CCBill are the owners of record of those consumer databases, and that site owners do not simply instruct them to move the rebills over to someone else. A few of the larger companies out there have agreements with their processors saying that IF their processor cannot run their transactions for some reason, they will be given access to their database to move it to another legitimate IPSP, provided the merchant banks who handle the IPSP business agree -- that is the only instance of which I am aware that someone using an IPSP model is allowed to move their database under the current Visa/MC regulations. I would also like to see the statement that IBill made that gives you cause to say they will not be in adult processing any more please. Perhaps you are confusing Intercept and IBill, but surely not, since you must know who's on first and what's going on in the outfield and the locker room? - I realize that the aforementioned companies are the owners of the databases you are referencing, and the complications that arise from that, and you are on the right track as to how we plan to do it. For the IBill issue, I do not have a statement directly from Ibill stating that they are getting out of the adult biz. My previous statement was that I had heard that to be the case – not from anyone directly at IBill, but from an individual involved in marketing of that particular industry. I did not mean to imply that his word is gospel on the topic, I was merely stating that were that to be the case, our strategy would be different than that of CCBill, for example, and that we have already devised a way to handle that situation if necessary. While I understand your reluctance to share with us your 'methods' of porting rebills, you need to understand the reluctance of webmasters to use your service when you can't explain to us how it works - and I personally don't believe its possible - therefore its up to you to get me to believe this works if you want me as a customer. This is the fine line you have to play between marketing and development ... we all understand how difficult that is ;-) You explained on air something about taking control of the IBill account on the behalf of your clients - but i'm still confused about how that will help get rebills OUT of that processor. Based on your explanation, my first thought is that you want the account in your name so you can steal my rebills - I can't see what the advantage is going to be for me - The only way, as pointed out earlier, to get the rebills out of the processor is through an agreement to do so. However,, your second guess is sort of correct. For people that don’t want to, or can’t afford to, pay the extra fees, and don’t want to risk losing their rebills, we will handle them for them. Not in our name, but as a joint agreement, where we would in effect, hold the rebills in trust for the individual. We would pay the fees that they didn’t want to pay, thereby eliminating the risk of cancellation, and the trust account prevents anyone from “stealing” your rebills. Now as I said earlier, if the info I have regarding IBill is accurate, this trust agreement will not be necessary in that instance. My other concern is your carefree attitude about chargebacks ... being that you are holding a merchant account at deutchbank (i think?) which you then give your clients a 'sub account' off that merchant account - you seem to have absolutely NO intrastructure in place to handle this very important chargeback issue. Your explanation that there can't be a chargeback due to the way the service is purchased is naive ... Having had conversations with reps from deutchbank very recently it appears to me that we both have very different information on what is allowed and not allowed through their bank. – Your assumption as to how our system is set up is flawed. We are in no way allowing anyone to use our merchant account, other than us. There are absolutely no sub-accounts off of our account. That system is an aggregator system, which we are not. I posted on the other board that first they thought we were a bank. Then they thought we were an aggregator. Then they thought we were 3rd party. Finally, they realized that we are none of these, and that we are a new animal. On that other post I also said how one of the main people at the bank fought very hard to get us approved for one reason. So that once we were out there, he could offer the same services to all the copycats that will be coming after us! Perhaps you just didn’t get in touch with the right people over at the bank. ;-) What type of volume have you put through this system up until now? I want to know how many tens of thousands of transactions you have processed without a chargeback - not a guess of what you think will happen or should happen but an actual proven system with numbers to back it up. – Obviously we have not run tens of thousands of transactions through – we just launched! Have you run multiple sub merchants off this merchant account which solar billing holds yet? – Again, there are no sub-merchant accounts allowed, nor are they needed. What type of clients are you going to accept into Solar Billing? Spammers? Beastiality sites? Who will you be processing along side my sites which also have the same billing descriptor? – There will be no kiddies, animals, or spammers. We will look at them, and have the final say, not because we want to censor anyone, but because we will not process those sites that are universally considered illegal. As for spam, personally we just hate it.