I firmely believe he was just following orders, and I am appalled that our governemnt let him be the sacraficial lamb like they have...

if anyone deserves jail time it is Rumsfeld...

I am neither surprised or appalled, it is standard operating procedure. They stated day one that it was just a small group and that they were going to take them down and stop there and they pretty much showed that they could not care less about any evidence to the contrary.

I am however, disgusted.

what sucks is these lower level soldiers will get buttfucked and those who gave the orders will get off scot free and probably write a book 25 years from now telling how they made an error in judgement...

let's be honest, the only mistake these soldiers made was photographing their exploits...

this is why adult conventions have actually mellowed out...too many fucking cameras around...

There was no excuse for what they did. None. Zero. The orders came from above and they too should be pilloried. There was no excuse for what they did. None. Zero.

They are all as guilty as sin and I mean that literally. Rumsfeld is a dangerous man. But then so is his boss.

He was following orders and didn't do anything worse than most HS and college fraternity hazings.

Now Nick's going to tell me again how I lack compassion :P

WTF are you thinking? College hazing? These were prisoners of war. Not willing participants. Humiliation well beyond the norm. What is pathetic, though, is how many Americans will die because of this "HS prank". How many more fighters were recruited because of what happened. If he was following orders, he should have got them in writing if he was being ordered to break the Geneva Convention. Even in war, crimes are still illegal.

WTF are you thinking? College hazing? These were prisoners of war. Not willing participants. Humiliation well beyond the norm. What is pathetic, though, is how many Americans will die because of this "HS prank". How many more fighters were recruited because of what happened. If he was following orders, he should have got them in writing if he was being ordered to break the Geneva Convention. Even in war, crimes are still illegal. [/b][/quote]
have you ever been in the service?

what if YOUR fellow soldiers or what if YOUR family were being held by these people? would you be nice and throw them a tea party?

so what would YOU do? probably just cower in a corner and cry in a puddle of your own piss

have you ever been in the service?

what if YOUR fellow soldiers or what if YOUR family were being held by these people? would you be nice and throw them a tea party?

so what would YOU do? probably just cower in a corner and cry in a puddle of your own piss [/b][/quote]
Not too likely on the final comment, Sykk. Yes I have been under fire. Yes I have been pinned down by incoming. Yes I have seen the devastating results of a truck bomb that killed 42 american marines. Yes I have been under airstrikes and seen people killed and have been blown off my feet. Not sure about wtf you ever did, but you are way, way out of line.
Yes I did serve in the Army militia, but saw no service because we were not at war.

Now. Following orders is no excuse. You have to understand that those prisoners have also seen what the Americans did to them and their people. I am sure that shock and awe was not lost on them either. Not sure how many of the guard's families were being held prisoner so how that is relevant.

The Geneva Convention was enacted for a reason.

edit: your turn sykk....how about a couple of when we war stories?

Not too likely on the final comment, Sykk. Yes I have been under fire. Yes I have been pinned down by incoming. Yes I have seen the devastating results of a truck bomb that killed 42 american marines. Yes I have been under airstrikes and seen people killed and have been blown off my feet. Not sure about wtf you ever did, but you are way, way out of line.
Yes I did serve in the Army militia, but saw no service because we were not at war.

Now. Following orders is no excuse. You have to understand that those prisoners have also seen what the Americans did to them and their people. I am sure that shock and awe was not lost on them either. Not sure how many of the guard's families were being held prisoner so how that is relevant.

The Geneva Convention was enacted for a reason. [/b][/quote]
so, you're saying you would have refused an order by a superior?

if you knew that those 42 lives could have been saved by gathering intelligence (even if it had meant "pushing" for that evidence) would you have done it or stood around reciting Geneva convention ordinance and let them die?

I've made it very public that I've ben against this war from day one, but we're over there and have to do what we can to ensure our troops make it home.

I don't doubt this is the first time those tactics have been used and it won't be the last....they just weren't stupid enough to take pictures of it

The timing for them to come out was bad because we also had a PR war going on and that helped lose that war...

I used to hold your feelings about the geneva convention, etc. then spent some time with Vietnam war vets (several years now), many of which were POW's and the stories they had to tell...it changed my perspective...

I still understand the geneva convention and it's purpose, but when it comes to saving soldiers' lives, it's hard to defend...see, I don't see our troops as disposible...

so, you're saying you would have refused an order by a superior?

if you knew that those 42 lives could have been saved by gathering intelligence (even if it had meant "pushing" for that evidence) would you have done it or stood around reciting Geneva convention ordinance and let them die?

I've made it very public that I've ben against this war from day one, but we're over there and have to do what we can to ensure our troops make it home.

I don't doubt this is the first time those tactics have been used and it won't be the last....they just weren't stupid enough to take pictures of it

The timing for them to come out was bad because we also had a PR war going on and that helped lose that war...

I used to hold your feelings about the geneva convention, etc. then spent some time with Vietnam war vets (several years now), many of which were POW's and the stories they had to tell...it changed my perspective...

I still understand the geneva convention and it's purpose, but when it comes to saving soldiers' lives, it's hard to defend...see, I don't see our troops as disposible... [/b][/quote]
"if you knew that those 42 lives could have been saved by gathering intelligence "

Two days before it happened, I told an American Colonel that I thought the gate to the MAU was underfortified and anyone could have driven straight through. No concrete embuttments. No tear strips. Two marines with empty rifles. He did not listen. So I did my freeking part.

Now after insulting me by telling me I would have pissed my pants. Step up to the plate son and tell me exactly where you served and what you have done. I am sure you were very brave and I have no doubt gallant. I would just like to hear a little about it.

"if you knew that those 42 lives could have been saved by gathering intelligence "

Two days before it happened, I told an American Colonel that I thought the gate to the MAU was underfortified and anyone could have driven straight through. No concrete embuttments. No tear strips. Two marines with empty rifles. He did not listen. So I did my freeking part.

Now after insulting me by telling me I would have pissed my pants. Step up to the plate son and tell me exactly where you served and what you have done. I am sure you were very brave and I have no doubt gallant. I would just like to hear a little about it. [/b][/quote]
I was a "casualty of war" so to speak
I had a father who was tunnel rat in vietnam and came home with his brains so scrambled and fucked up, I lived with a father who for the first 15 years of my life, I was unable to wake up in the morning without fear of having my neck snapped

I was unable to join the military due to some medical issues I rodeod in high school and have had bad knees and a bad back since I was about 14), but had I gone in, I probably wouldn't have got to mount my mighty steed and warned an american colonel that he was an idiot and I was this brilliant military mind...I scored straight 98's on my ASVABs and was being recruited by the air force for their pilot program...I was also too honest when I went to MEPS to get my exams and it cost me.

Looking back, I probably wouldn't have been a good soldier as I had this issue with blindly following orders and always had this fear I could turn out like my father and have nightmares several years after the fact...

"I probably wouldn't have got to mount my mighty steed and warned an american colonel that he was an idiot and I was this brilliant military mind."
That is not how it happened. You just don't have a clue.
So from what I understand, after insulting me, you really know shit from shinola about this whole thing. 'nuff said Sykk. Go back to webmastering where at least you haven't shot your street cred in the foot.

as my dad used to say "Shit rolls downhill"

surprised? no.

too harsh, not at all. whomever was found guilty deserves it.

as my dad used to say "Shit rolls downhill"

surprised? no.

too harsh, not at all. whomever was found guilty deserves it. [/b][/quote]
Too true, but they gotta dig a little deeper in the shit to see who shoveled it in the first place.

I agree, but the punishment fits the crime. Who committed the crime is another story.

The punishment fits for sure. The story will be told. Remember Watergate. It all came crashing down in Nixxon's second term.

then how did it happen?
you act like you were this big hero giving a warning that went unheeded, like you were this brilliant military mind...

"So from what I understand, after insulting me, you really know shit from shinola about this whole thing."

nice brush off when you can't defend your own (in)actions
your typical style, I would never expect anything less of you

then how did it happen?
you act like you were this big hero giving a warning that went unheeded, like you were this brilliant military mind...

"So from what I understand, after insulting me, you really know shit from shinola about this whole thing."

nice brush off when you can't defend your own (in)actions
your typical style, I would never expect anything less of you [/b][/quote]
"you act like you were this big hero giving a warning that went unheeded, like you were this brilliant military mind..."

Bullshit. You brought it up in the first place. You asked me, remember?

I brushed nothing off. You insulted me and wound up with egg all over your sorry face.

"you act like you were this big hero giving a warning that went unheeded, like you were this brilliant military mind..."

Bullshit. You brought it up in the first place. You asked me, remember?

I brushed nothing off. You insulted me and wound up with egg all over your sorry face. [/b][/quote]
riiiiiiight
typical, dude, so typical...

"I can't think of anything to say, so I'll claim victory and spin like a top"

riiiiiiight
typical, dude, so typical...

"I can't think of anything to say, so I'll claim victory and spin like a top" [/b][/quote]
Not at all. No need to spin this one. You lied. You lost. You look like a wanker. And then to finish it all off, you lied one more time. Kid, you are pathetic. Too many war movies. Too many porn movies as well, I think.

Once again I suspect you are the only one who thinks you "won".

Once again I suspect you are the only one who thinks you "won". [/b][/quote]
Peaches, your opinion is always the same. So it matters not what I say. You think a snot nosed kid with big fantasies, who insulted me with no substance, then asked why I did not pass on intelligence, then insulted me when I explained I did, won some sort of pissing match?

[quote]Originally posted by rhymer11@Jan 16 2005, 01:09 PM
[quote=SykkBoy,Jan 16 2005, 12:56 PM]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhymer11,Jan 16 2005, 03:42 PM Quote: Originally Posted by Peaches,Jan 16 2005, 12:36 PM He was following orders and didn't do anything worse than most HS and college fraternity hazings. Now Nick's going to tell me again how I lack compassion :P

I agree with rhymer on the fact that I truly think Bush's actions has put us all in more harm. Over 100k civilians killed in Iraq.

That prolly means there is a 2m children , teenagers , or young adults that will now have a very strong reason to loathe the west.

On the 1% law thats a lot of potential terrorist.

On the toturing...

"Trust a wop to bring a knife to a gunfight"

The dumb thing that was getting caught.

I think the whole matter should have been hushed up , real quick.

I would have dropped the charges to "conduct unbecoming" simply for being dumb enough to take pictures and taken the heat.

If Bush stood up and said "Fuck it.Its a fucking war.They tortured a few of them.In the schmeme of things I don't give a fuck."

He would have lost 6 maybve 10 votes total. ;-)))

I had two friends in the SAS in Britain.They both at different times inferred to me if you hear of an IRA bomber that was "blown up by his own bomb" ....nawwwwwww ;-))))

The SAS killed suspected terroists in Gibralter.Walked up t them all in black and shot them.Tried in Britain as "Lt.X" and "Sgt.Y". Found not guilty.

I was specifically asked , going through the selection process in England for a Regular Commission in the Army.

""You are the commanding officer of a tank squadron , and have captured an enemy officer that you strongly believe has information concerning your objective , that may affect the welfare of your command.What action do you take?"

My answer was along the lines of...The welfare and safety of my men are tantamount.I would extract the information I need by any means necessary to ensure the welfare of my men.

I was accepted.


.....


Oh and rhymer,

""Yes I have been under fire. ""
where?

""Yes I have been pinned down by incoming. ""
ummm where?

""Yes I have seen the devastating results of a truck bomb that killed 42 american marines. Yes I have been under airstrikes and seen people killed and have been blown off my feet. ""
where?

Not at all. No need to spin this one. You lied. You lost. You look like a wanker. And then to finish it all off, you lied one more time. Kid, you are pathetic. Too many war movies. Too many porn movies as well, I think. [/b][/quote]
you're going senile, gramps

you're going senile, gramps [/b][/quote]
All show no go kid. At least I am successful at what I do and you, according to yourself, can barely keep it together and by the sound of it, will not actually make it. It shows in your posts.

All show no go kid. At least I am successful at what I do and you, according to yourself, can barely keep it together and by the sound of it, will not actually make it. It shows in your posts. [/b][/quote]
you better double your dose of geritol grandpa

you're the biggest case of all show no go I've ever seen...
I used to think it was your board personna, but now I think maybe you really are as senile as you come across

"Hey, you kids, get off my lawn. No, you can't have your ball back"

Nice try, loser. LMFAO. Peaches will help you out.

Rhymer,

You are going back to your old self again , huh?

Not too likely on the final comment, Sykk. Yes I have been under fire. Yes I have been pinned down by incoming. Yes I have seen the devastating results of a truck bomb that killed 42 american marines. Yes I have been under airstrikes and seen people killed and have been blown off my feet. Not sure about wtf you ever did, but you are way, way out of line.
Yes I did serve in the Army militia, but saw no service because we were not at war.

Now. Following orders is no excuse. You have to understand that those prisoners have also seen what the Americans did to them and their people. I am sure that shock and awe was not lost on them either. Not sure how many of the guard's families were being held prisoner so how that is relevant.

The Geneva Convention was enacted for a reason.

edit: your turn sykk....how about a couple of when we war stories? [/b][/quote]
so if yu saw no service, and were not at war, explain exactly where all this hostile incoming cam from and how you witnessed what you claim, and in fact I call bullshit

give us the EXACT details, and place so we can check your story.

:nyanya:

Already asked him ;-)))

See above :)

Yes, 10 years for being stupid enough to get caught - if you are going to break the Geneva convention, then please do a better job of hidding the evidence :ph34r:

haha I noticed, I didn't finish the thread I saw is bullshit and went straight for the typing LOL

Rhymer

gives us the details on your service record please, and I also would like dates of these events

what is the problem kid? all show and no go? :biglaugh:

No, Nick. But if you follow the thread, you will find that SykkKid was itching for a fight.

so if yu saw no service, and were not at war, explain exactly where all this hostile incoming cam from and how you witnessed what you claim, and in fact I call bullshit

give us the EXACT details, and place so we can check your story. [/b][/quote]
Joe, I have no reason to explain anything to you re: my record. What have you actually done? I don't put you in that spot either. If you actually thought about it, you could put two and two together and figure it out. It is not rocket science. You think the military are the only ones in a war zone? Oops, I guess you have actually not been in one. Would I be correct in this assumption?

Just re read it , both this thread and the thread of Vick's thats been affected.

IMHO , its you.

Do me a favour and lighten up.

Can we all debate issues without bringing this ass into it?

haha I noticed, I didn't finish the thread I saw is bullshit and went straight for the typing LOL

Rhymer

gives us the details on your service record please, and I also would like dates of these events

what is the problem kid? all show and no go? :biglaugh: [/b][/quote]
Joe, your bullshit detector is obviously not particularly well honed. Sorry, but your inexperience is showing at the moment. No offense, but it is.

rhymer,

Both Joe and myself asked you to explain how you found yourself in these situations.

Why is it so hard to elaborate on?

I would love to Nick, but he just jumped in.

edit

" have you ever been in the service?

what if YOUR fellow soldiers or what if YOUR family were being held by these people? would you be nice and throw them a tea party?

so what would YOU do? probably just cower in a corner and cry in a puddle of your own piss"

You think this has any relevance in a serious disucssion nick? Do you not think this deserves a retort?

No, Nick. But if you follow the thread, you will find that SykkKid was itching for a fight. [/b][/quote]
not at all
you just come off with your pompous bullshit and when someone calls you on it, you start spinning like a merry-go-round

OK,...please elaborate , rhymer.

Guys , let him explain himself , then.

Joe, your bullshit detector is obviously not particularly well honed. Sorry, but your inexperience is showing at the moment. No offense, but it is. [/b][/quote]
your right once I read your bullshit, my detector went crazy ( sorta like you CRAZY!)

put up or shuut up kid, we want the details....

BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT

remember this is a NO spin zone

Because that is a past life. You do watch television don't you? Who the fuck do you think takes pictures of wars? I have even posted this here before. It was my job.
Now this snot nosed kid winds me up about pissing in my pants wtf do you think I am going to say?

your right once I read your bullshit, my detector went crazy ( sorta like you CRAZY!)

put up or shuut up kid, we want the details....

BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT

remember this is a NO spin zone [/b][/quote]
Joe, sorry, but I really think you need to rethink some of your posts. Logic not being your long suit. I will not sit here and be swarmed without a response. I have to post six times for every one of you who fire blanks.

ok....ya know....

I hate to say it , I believe ryhmer on this.

A photog might well have been in those situations.And it is his background.

Ok , gentlemen.

This is an interesting thread , can we go back to the discussion in hand now?

I understand how things ccan get heated , but though it may be entertaining to see a full scale piss , it is just as entertaining to see a piss over issues and subjects without it falling into the trap of personal attacks.

show me some of the pics, I am from close to missouri and seeing is believing...

who were you working for at the time?
details

is that so hard to believe that someone wants to se without you geting all defensive?

Thank you. I have no problem debating issues. I have no problem debating politics. I have a long history of being in shit both literally....wars and disasters...and figuratively...in discussions. But I will not tolerate being attacked for telling the truth. Especially by those with no experience in what they speak. I have great respect for those who have put it on the line for whatever reason. I have zero tolerance for those who pretend. Just remember, I tell the truth. If I say I have met Jimmy Carter, I have. I have said my piece on this one.

I'll piss myself if he does!!! LOL


Ok...now I want a clean break gentlemen.


;-)))

Fuck right off Joe. I have nothing to prove to you, no matter where you come from. You have not even proven yourself in this business.

The rule of thumb in the military when it comes to "legal vs illegal orders" is to obey the order first and then question it... It is patently obvious that they "small group" at the prison was following orders.. Several of them questioned the orders and were basically told to shut up..

The commanding officer is ultimately responsible for all actions of any personnel within their command.

Thus the CO should go down, all officers involved should go down, and any of the enlisted personnel who did not question what were obviously illegal orders should perhaps serve some punishment.

That is not what will happen, but it what should happen.

I'll piss myself if he does!!! LOL


Ok...now I want a clean break gentlemen.


;-))) [/b][/quote]
It will never happen. I still have attachments in that industry that make me a lot of money. I have no need to intertwine the two at possibly great expense to amuse a newbie like Joe.