"Almost half of all Saudis said in a poll conducted last year that they have a favorable view of Osama bin Laden's sermons and rhetoric"

Yep,

We really showed those Afghannis and Iraqis for what the Saudis did :blink:

This is old, old news. The poll maybe new, but the news is old. I think the poll is light. I would guess it is way more than half.

And here I thought you were smart Colin.

Colin, why did you single out the West? Islam is also at war with the Hindus(Indian Subcontinent), Buddhists (Orient), followers of Confucius (Orient), Christians (North Africa, Indonesia, Pacific Islands), Pagans (Africa), and Atheists (Everywhere). I'm sure I left out a lot, but you get the point.

A better way to say it would have been "Islam really is also at war with the West."

Dont fuck with the buffster when it comes to world politics:)

Poll gives results that poll gives... The question is: is there any significance to those results?

There are, in that order: lies, damn lies and then statistics.

Wow, now the Saudis are all of Islam!

Shame on you, Colin, of all people, quoting a statistic out of context! :rolleyes:

why cant we send some missionaries to go A-rab-it hunting ?

LMAO! Pearl nomination for Slav! :salute:

Dravyk, I quoted it exactly. It's completely in context. It's one more reason of many that I have given on this board for that statement. It's not a stand-alone. Please keep up with the threads.

----------------------------
TheEnforcer,

Argue with the historians.

"One of the basic tasks bequeathed to Muslims by the Prophet was jihad. This word, which literally means "striving," was usually cited in the Koranic phrase "striving in the path of God" and was interpreted to mean armed struggle for the defense or advancement of Muslim power. In principle, the world was divided into two houses: the House of Islam, in which a Muslim government ruled and Muslim law prevailed, and the House of War, the rest of the world, still inhabited and, more important, ruled by infidels. Between the two, there was to be a perpetual state of war until the entire world either embraced Islam or submitted to the rule of the Muslim state." - Bernard Lewis, historian


There is a "clash of civilizations" - Samuel Huntington, historian.

"The fault lines between civilizations are replacing the political and ideological boundaries of the Cold War as the flash points for crisis and bloodshed. The Cold War began when the Iron Curtain divided Europe politically and ideologically. The Cold War ended with the end of the Iron Curtain. As the ideological division of Europe has disappeared, the cultural division of Europe between Western Christianity, on the one hand, and Orthodox Christianity and Islam, on the other, has reemerged.. Conflict along the fault line between Western and Islamic civilizations has been going on for 1,300 years .. This centuries-old military interaction between the West and Islam is unlikely to decline. It could become more virulent." (1993) - Samuel Huntington, historian

"It is no good pretending that the peoples of the desert and the empty spaces exist on the same level of civilisation as those who farm and manufacture. They do not. Their attitude to the West has always been that it is a world ripe for the picking. When the West turned nasty, and fought back, with better weapons and superior tactics and strategy, the East did not seek to emulate it but to express its anger in new forms of the raid and surprise attack. September 11 was a declaration of war. October 7 was the declaration of a counter-offensive. The counter-offensive will prevail." - John Keegan. historian

Yes, that's it. They don't leave anyone out. Convert or die.

once i stopped reading the news and no longer watch television i have found that 99.999% of the bullshit in the world ceased to exist for me.

no more wars, no more famine, no more pestilence, no more suffering. i get along with everybody i meet, and everyone gets along with me.

life is fucking grand.

By that kind of loogic Christianity should have been wiped off the face of the earth when things like the Crsades and Inquisition were happening, which is just as bogus.

Any fool who believes they are doing God's, or any other imaginary friend they may have for that matter, will can find something in EVERY religion that can justify their murderous, hateful, and other evil actions. Doesn't mean the entire religion fells or acts in that manner.

Maybe you think you can sit down for a cup of coffee with your average Middle Easterner and try to relate to him. Maybe you think that by listening to him you will calm the savage beast. Maybe he'll tell you why Italians were recently kidnapped and held for ransom. Maybe he'll tell you why 11 French were killed in Islamabad in May of 2002. Maybe he can explain to you how US soldiers based in Saudi Arabia with the Saudi government's permission should lead to 3000 dead in New York city.

In reality, you would be lucky to walk away from your meeting alive in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or Syria.

There are more than 1300 years of history supporting my view and more than 1300 against yours.

so now we can just pick and choose what details we want from history?

how about we let somebody look back through the last 1300 years of christianity for some evidence of religiously intolerant actions?

c'mon colin. the very best you can hope for by trying to make this argument is that you will sound retarded. you need to let this go.

Maybe you think you can sit down for a cup of coffee with your average Middle Easterner and try to relate to him. Maybe you think that by listening to him you will calm the savage beast. Maybe he'll tell you why Italians were recently kidnapped and held for ransom. Maybe he'll tell you why 11 French were killed in Islamabad in May of 2002. Maybe he can explain to you how US soldiers based in Saudi Arabia with the Saudi government's permission should lead to 3000 dead in New York city.

In reality, you would be lucky to walk away from your meeting alive in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or Syria.

There are more than 1300 years of history supporting my view and more than 1300 against yours.[/b][/quote]
I think you might be missing something here. Actually when you cut through the crap, this is not a religious war. It is, like most wars, economic. They want what we have. They think we are stealing what they have. That is why the World TRADE Centre was destroyed. It was an economic symbol, not a military or cultural symbol.

I don't know where you are going with that.

Islam started a war with "the west" in the 7th century AD. Maybe you can tell me why Muslims occupied Spain for 700 years and were not completely driven out until 1492 . Maybe you can tell me why Muslims were at the gates of Vienna in 1683. Fortunately, the Muslims were taught a lesson by a rising west and went home defeated. The crusades were a part of that long history. The first crusade began because Byzantine was under attack by the Turks and requested help. The Muslim Turks had already conquered much of Byzantine and were headed toward the capital, Constantinople. The pope at the time took his army, called for others to be formed, and counter-attacked.

Prior to the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648 the nation-state system in Europe did not exist in the same way as it does today. A king might raise an army, a feudal lord might raise an army, and yes, even a pope might raise an army. So there ya go.

Of course "the west" has been no better. At the time of World War II, Africa was completely occupied by western colonial powers. I'd say that the west was at war with Africa for a long time. That despite the fact that many westerners were opposed to colonial occupation and only a small minority actually participated in the colonialism. Maybe some Africans claimed they weren't at war. Maybe some colonialists claimed they weren't wat war. What else would you call it?

There is a fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam though. Christians have to twist or ignore the New Testament in order to conquer in the name of their religion. Muslims have to ignore the Sharia and the Koran not to. How can a state of war between Islam and everyone else be said to not exist when it's holiest books and laws preach killing all the infidels and when many, many millions of Muslims believe in those tenets? How do you separate the "good Muslims" from the "bad ones"? Sort of like trying to separate the good Germans from the bad ones during world War II.

I don't believe most wars are economic. Ever read Thucydides? I think he had it correct 2400 years ago. Wars are fought mostly for honor and out of fear. Man's nature does not change. Both of these ideas are encapsulated neatly in the concept of balance of power.

Let's not rely on "somebody"? We can do that ourselves. Christianity has been religiously intolerant on the whole. It's been intolerant both of others and of itself. Consider some of the fighting during the Thirty Years between Catholics and Protestants. I agree with you there and I don't believe you are making a point which counters mine.

I agree with the historians quoted above.

Are you going to sit there dumbfounded at your keyboard and call me retarded or are you going to start making some counterpoints?

The inquisition was a blight on christianity, but it didn't last very long. The Crusades were a response to the Muslim conquest of the "holy lands." The thing about Christianity is that while it might be annoying, it was born in peace with a message of love thy neighbor. Islam was born in war with conquest by Mohammed and company and has never settled down.

Muslims emigrate, become 3 to 5 percent of the population somewhere, and start a separatist movement so they can live under the Sharia.

so now we can just pick and choose what details we want from history?[/b][/quote]
No, I believe the general theme that Islam is at war with the infidels is well-supported by 1300 years of history. I don't believe details are being picked and chosen in order to support that view. You can read about it in its formative years in the Koran, you can read about in the Hadith in its developing years, you can read about it in the sharia devloped over the years and you can read about it in the general history of Islam. War against Dar al Harb is part of Muslim tradition and history. Mohammed warred, the caliphs that followed him warred and the same is true of many others that followed him.

In fact, the spread of Islam to the west can only be explained as a long state of war, can it not? Muslims did not just peacefully walk into Spain and say "Hey, Muslims here. We're going to be in control now". No, they came with sharp swords, heavy axes, long lances, bows and crossbows. They came on horseback on camelback and by ship. They came with fire flinging catapults and gate destroying battering arms.

What Islam didn't anticipate is the rise of the west from those long ago dark ages. What Islam didn't count on is western openness and scientific inquiry. They didn't count on the west building much more terrible weapons than they could. They didn't count on the west inventing battle tactics that they could scarcely comprehend. This is why they were beaten in Spain in 1492. This is why they were beaten in Vienna in 1683. This is why Israeli armies continually triumph over Islamic ones - whether that be with Soviet weapons, French weapons or US weapons doesn't matter. This is why 100 hours of ground war against a western army is enough to destroy much of the Iraqi army and send the rest fleeing northward to hide the remaining hardware wherever they can. This is why western armies can occupy Islamic capitals in less than 21 days and change the government.

They didn't count on the ferocity of our counterattack.



Last edited by Colin at Jun 13 2004, 01:24 PM

I don't believe most wars are economic. Ever read Thucydides? I think he had it correct 2400 years ago. Wars are fought mostly for honor and out of fear. Man's nature does not change. Both of these ideas are encapsulated neatly in the concept of balance of power.[/b][/quote]
honour = wealth = power = honour = wealth
Honour is another representation of wealth. If you want to humble a man, remove his wealth. Threaten his infrastructure and his family, his way of life.

Gilgy,

I like your reading your posts. Your writing is great but your math needs work ;-) ;-)

Gilgy,

I like your reading your posts. Your writing is great but your math needs work ;-) ;-)[/b][/quote]
I know. Math was never my long suit. But around here it doesn't matter. It seems 2 + 2 can = 5 without argument at Oprano.

i didn't say you were retarded, i said that arguing this point would make you sound retarded.

and rather than "sitting dumbfounded at my keyboard" i spent this beautiful sunny june day riding my bicycle and smiling at the pretty girls.

i can't think of a more pointless thing to do with my life than argue religion and politics on a message board, especially on a sunny sunday afternoon.

You were not insulting me by stating that I "sound retarded" if I make a point which - as you know - I had already made? That's a strange sort of anachronism. Don't ya think?

I've written a good ten paragraphs or so on the subject I'm sure. Why don't you sleep on it and see if you can think of something worth writing by morning. I'll be here.

Showdown in type. Will you fight for honor?

no thanks, i'm not interested in proving anything to anyone.

as far as using the term "retarded", that was inappropriate and i apologize.

even though i pop in and give you shit every now i hope you don't view that as disrespect. you are one of the few people in this business whom i do respect.

search the oprano archives and see how many other poster's threads i post in. most often when you see me posting in reply to you it's because i'm suprised that my perception of you is greatly divergent from your post.

in this particular instance i'm surprised that you voice any other opinion than the whole islam vs. the west cultural war is a sham, a plotline in the script the powers-that-be have written to obfuscate reality.

we can choose to perpetuate the myth or we can choose not.

take care.

Sorry, Colin. I'm too busy working to read every post and every thread on every board (or even on one board) everyday. So if something doesn't stand alone or is part of an ongoing multi-month mult-threaded discussion, I'll have to require annotations from you in the future, my friend. :D

There is no secret plot between statesmen to convince us of a cultural war.
In fact, the western statesmen of the world say the exact opposite.

"Islam, as practiced by the vast majority of people, is a peaceful religion, a religion that respects others. Ours is a country based upon tolerance ... and we welcome people of all faiths in America. And we're not going to let the war on terror or terrorists cause us to change our values." - George Bush

"I think this comparison is nonsense and have no truck at all with those who suggest the Islamic and Western worlds are somehow mutually exclusive and inevitably in conflict." - Tony Blair

Instead it is a number of historians and sociologists who have been pointing to the cultural war and they have been doing it since well before 9/11. Islam is not just a religion. It is an ideology that is killer at its very center. It is an ideology that has advocated killing non-Muslims for over a thousand years. What is a sham, instead, is the idea that all ideologies are equal. People who act under that dark umbrella would have to admit that nazism is an acceptable ideology and that the best way to deal with such killer ideologies is de'tente.

How can it not be so? This is a world where power struggles between ideologies has always been the rule. From Athenian vs. Spartan to Soviet vs. American and from Catholic vs. Protestant to Republicanism vs. Communism. As always, many millions wish to follow the example of the prophet Mohammed and "make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme". This is a world where a large segment of the Muslim population agrees with the rhetoric of Osama bin Laden, a Mohammed like warrior who has said "Let us say that there are two parties to the conflict: The first party is world Christianity, which is allied with Zionist Jewry and led by the United States, Britain, and Israel; while the second party is the Muslim world. " Yet another ideology that wants to take over the world and kill all the jews.

All throughout the 1990s - with Soviet power waning - the number of militant Islamist groups titled with such descriptors as Islamic, Armed, Combat, Combatant, and Jihadist grew. So conflict between Muslim and non-Muslim rages in Chechnya, Kashmir, Afghanistan, Algeria, Azerbaijan, Daghestan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Ethiopia, Sudan, Israel, the Phillipines and Iraq while civilians are murdered in the streets of New York, Jakarta, and Madrid while Russians, Americans, Italians, and French are kidnapped, held ransom, bombed or executed on television and even today - the followers of Ali kill the followers of Abu Bakr, Shi'ite vs Sunni.

"The conflict in the world today is a conflict between belief and unbelief. The war in Palestine, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Algeria, in Chechnya, and in the Philippines is one war. This is a war between the camp of Islam and the camp of the Cross, to which the Americans, Zionists, Jews, their apostate allies, and others belong." - Abu Ibrahim Mustafa, a leader of the Salafi Group for Da'wa

Don't worry about the Arab street. After the next attack on US soil they can worry about the American street.



Last edited by Colin at Jun 14 2004, 06:25 AM