Discuss :okthumb:

how come I am not shocked?

poor Canadiens....

In other news, more than 24,000 people in the US certainly died because they couldn't afford to see a doctor.

DISCUSS.

Alex

come on, alex ... wtf would you know about Canadian medicine?

Okay, I've read the article.

These problems exist in the Canadian health care system.

I can understand why people with a certain mindset would immediately leap to the conclusion that they are because of socialized medicine.

Pull the string, the dolly talks.

Personally, I think the fact that the American health care system doesn't threaten patient health nearly as much is an arguement against so-called tort reform.

Take away the threat of massive damages as a result of lawsuits, and I have no doubt that the medical-industrial complex will cut corners and get us competitive in this area with our Canadian neighbors in no time flat.

PD, I live in Canada.

I have friends I went to school with in the medical field.

Thankfully I haven't had to use our fine medical system for a while... but when an emergency happens, I know I will get in SOMEWHERE.

Alex

Canada is not the only country in the world with socialised health care.

In Australia we have socialised medicine and it has always had broad popular support.

I don't think you'd be able to find a single Aussie who thinks doing away with Medicare would be a good idea.

Besides, I think America has much to learn from the health care systems of other countries: http://www.chiff.com/a/HLFH703cost.htm



Last edited by Joe Sixpack at May 22 2004, 07:37 PM

If they cant even afford to go to the doctor, they obviously aren't contributing much to society.

DISCUSS

There you go thinking again :lol:

The costs stated in that article, do they take into account what is taken from residents of countries in taxes which are contributed to health care?

Does every country end up with a two tier health care system?

I've never had first hand knowledge with/of socialized medicine but I'm opposed to it,
why should I contribute out of my tax dollars any more than I already do for someone else's medical care?

socialized medicine sounds like taking someone else's problems and making them mine


Now I'll go smoke another cigarette on my way to lung cancer

If they cant even afford to go to the doctor, they obviously aren't contributing much to society.

DISCUSS[/b][/quote]
Is ignorance really bliss? Are you happy?

here is what I know about Health Care System in USA.

1) low income/no income citizens and (NO CITIZENS) who are eligable for welfare benefits, have FREE medical care.
(single mothers unable to work, males/females who can't work for medical reasons, regardless of their citizenships.
When I just came to USA 25 years ago, I dated a few single mothers who were on welfare and them and their children had FREE medical care

2) Elders, like my father, who are unable to work and don't have Medicare,
are the part of SSI system and have FREE medical care.

3) I was unemployed and living with the girl from Dominican Republic who, when I needed to see the doctor for routine check up showed me the clinic somehow subsidised by state for low income people where doctor's visit costed me...$6.95 compared to $120 to a usual yellow pages doctor

4) Emergency care:
NO HOSPITAL MAY REFUSE YOU EMERGENCY CARE due to your lack of ability to pay,
THIS IS A FEDERAL LAW.


I would safely deduce that OVERWHELMING majority of americans and legal residents have no problems obtaining reasonably priced medical care.


and to sum it all I'll use O-ren's quote:
"Now if any of you sonsabitches got anything else to say, now's the fuckin time.

I didn't think so."

That's not what I hear Serge:

http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/healt.../ns09302003.cfm
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/DrJohns...re031021-1.html
http://www.theolympian.com/home/specialsec...324/10626.shtml
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0123-01.htm

I could go on pulling links all night Serge but it is clear that US health care is in crisis.

That's not what I hear Serge:

http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/healt.../ns09302003.cfm
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/DrJohns...re031021-1.html
http://www.theolympian.com/home/specialsec...324/10626.shtml
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0123-01.htm

I could go on pulling links all night Serge but it is clear that US health care is in crisis.[/b][/quote]
Joe, as a matter of fact, you just confirmed my assesment of the status quo.

"Even so, 43 million Americans have no health-care coverage — including one in 10 children. " from the article you posted.

43 millions represent less than 15% of US population,
thus making my post that
"OVERWHELMING majority of americans and legal residents have no problems obtaining reasonably priced medical care"
solid as a rock.
85%+ IS an overwhelming majority.

and here is the article I quote from:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/DrJohns...re031021-1.html


I hope you won't mind if I use my head and won't blindly follow into the article and use my own critical thinking, would you?
;_))

"Americans already pay twice as much for prescription drugs as anyone else. The ramifications of all this are huge in the world's richest nation.
"
and what it ommits that Americans pay 1/2 of what the rest of the world pays for gasoline and what it mits that American tax rates are 1/2 of what the rest of the world pays to cover those 1/2 priced medecine.
at the end of the day everybody pay the same,
according to profit statements of the US based and Europe based pharmaceutical companies.

I know, I know, what I am about to say is more expected from Labret's mouth than mine,
but...I'll say it anyway.

Let's go back and study the mother Nature.
Mother Nature ALWAYS trys to regulate the world's population in the interests of...Mother Nature.
Bubonic Plague was taking millions to reduce world populaon,
plague was conqured, to be raplaced by tubercoulesis, viral infections taking millions in mass epedemics.
When this was conquered, the AIDS/cancer/heart desisses came to replace an old "Mother Nature's" self controling world population mechanism.
As far as Mother Nature is concerned:
I, my wife, you Peaches, PD, and everubody else who procreated, raised new generation of procreators, are absolutelly useless and serve no purpose,
thus getting rid of us is quite high on Mother Nature's priority list.
Like it or not, but this is Nature's way to get rid of it's unproductive elements.

Socirty works in a very much similar fashion,
and when society TRYS to implement the laws or develops against the mother Nature,
Mother Nature backfires with the vengence.

What if this higher mortality rate is the way of the society to FOLLOW the laws of the Mother Nature and get rid of it's outmost unproductive part?
Self Regulated genetic cleansing?

I am patiently await the retorts.....

Canada is not the only country in the world with socialised health care.

In Australia we have socialised medicine and it has always had broad popular support.

I don't think you'd be able to find a single Aussie who thinks doing away with Medicare would be a good idea.

Besides, I think America has much to learn from the health care systems of other countries: http://www.chiff.com/a/HLFH703cost.htm[/b][/quote]
Had you read the article you would have seen that Australia was one of the countries with WORST statistics of medical errors than Canada. The US healthcare system IS in crisis and IMHO, one of the main reasons is because we take care of anyone who walks in the door with the very best care regardless of if they will ever pay a dime towards it.

Except for the rare cases of people who are uninsurable (and they are uninsurable due to their own decisions - most didn't pay for health insurance when they were healthy and now that they're ill, can't get it) every person in the US that I know who doesn't have insurance either makes so little money that they qualify for free or highly discounted medical care or it is THEIR CHOICE not to have health insurance. Those who have made that choice spend more on non-essential items per month than health insurance would cost them. :zoinks:

You KNOW I agree with you :awinky:

Think of the millions spent keeping older people alive, most in severe pain. Think of the millions spent on fertilization procedures when the major don't product a baby. Think of the millions spent on 1 pound premmie crack babies who will be mentally and physically handicapped with no parent who wants to take care of them and the government pays for their care for the rest of their lives. Think of the millions spent on "free" healthcare for people in this country illegally. :(

I know, everyone feels that's mean. And I don't advocate stopping money from flowing to these causes. But IMHO, take the government out of the equation. If you want to contribute to these causes, do so out of your own pocket either individually or through churches, charities, etc.

I like paying 40% more than CAnucks for the SAME MEDICINE
thank you BIG MED CORPS who have Congress in their pockets

how come everytime I see a post from one of the southerner's I hear fiddles?

Meni,
you hear lots of things in your head...we know, we know.

Actually, in some cases it's NOT the same medicine :awinky: In addition, there are many generics in the US that aren't available in Canada and conversely, many generics available in Canada that aren't in the US.

And surely you've read a newspaper in the past 18 months - you're free to buy it in Canada. Ergo, if you're paying 40% for the same medicine, you're CHOOSING to do it, you're not being FORCED to do it. Back we go to "personal responsibility" :)

I long ago stopped trying to figure out what makes you "hear" things. :okthumb:

Meni,
do you also wanna pay CAnucks tax rates?

Talk to Nick, what would he rathe rhad,
our pills costs or his tax rate?
;-)))

JINX!
;-)))

Serge, 85% is a pretty good score on a final exam in university, but it isn't very good when it comes to health. Imagine, if you will, that 15% of days you woke up and couldn't move. You had to spend the entire day trapped in one place. That 15% would really suck. Imagine that 15% of your bowel movements got stuck for a week. Now that would be fun, wouldn't it?

Also, that 85% is americans with "some coverage". The number with decent full coverage is much lower.

Hellpuppy: When a family of 4 is paying out $12-$20k per year for coverage WITH a big deductible, PLUS drugs, PLUS no coverage for catastrophic long term care, you being to wonder.

The cost of heath insurance for a family of 4 in many states is much higher than the "official" poverty line. Does that mean that poorer people don't deserve to live?

Social medicine is average medicine. Average is way better than NONE.

Alex

Alkex, stop preaching, and keep on reading.
Mother Nature post is a MUST for you before you try retorting

I call bullshit. Unless there are preexisting conditions, there is NO WAY a family in the US is paying $12-20K a year AND has a large deductible AND is paying for prescriptions. If they are paying that much they have a low deductible policy with doctor and prescription co-pays.

I'm 42 years old and the insurance companies still consider me "child bearing" which means I have some of the most expensive rates out there. I pay $282 for a $500 deductible, $20 office visits, $25 prescriptions with a $2mil payout. I can go to any doctor or pharmacy I want. I don't have to get any referrals to go any doctors or hospitals. I can call tomorrow and get a plain basic check up within 48 hours and if I have a problem, I can see a doctor tomorrow - today if I want to go to the hospital.

I can get a catastrophic plan for less than $100 a month. I can get a family catastrophic plan for less than $300 a month. Find me a family that can't afford $300 a month and I'll show you a family that qualifies for free/reduced free care or has full cable TV, new cars and eats out 4 times a week.

Peaches,
it's probably the same family which spends $350 a month on electrical bill without AC
;-))))

Let's all give it to Goebbels who was one of the first to notice that the more unbelivable the lie is-
the more people beleive it
;-))

at least people like Alex
;-)))

Just for fun, I went and looked at some rates with BCBS of GA (my insurance company and one, if not the, most expensive and best ones out there).

The parameters were a 42 year old female, her 42 year old husband, their 21 year old female student daughter and a 14 year old son.

The HIGHEST rate for this family was $528 a month. $500 deductible, $20 copays. They are all non-smokers, BTW :awinky:

There must be a reason that the US is the #1 destination in the world for people who are sick and need the best treatment in the world.


Our system has some flaws, and they are getting worse, but gov't intervetion and socializing medicine is not the solution.

I have never met anyone who has been denied medical service in the US, even those who are uninsured.

Interesting that you should mention Gobbels ... he and his cronies created a short-term society with much more efficient ways to "get rid of it's outmost unproductive part."

The first big lie I saw in this thread is the idea that the article "proves" anything about Canada's health care system, and it seems that as many people are buying that lie as are buying anything that Alex (or I) are spreading. I repeat what I said before - the article supports the idea that the threat of litigation improves the quality of health care in the U.S. every bit as much as it supports the idea that it is systemic to a socialized health care system.

Are you suggesting malpractice lawsuits don't exist in Canada and they have no threat of litigation?? :zoinks:

What "lie" are you referring to? I posted a link to an article from Canada about their healthcare system. Are you suggesting Canada is lying about their own healthcare system? I'm confused. :unsure:

Interesting that you should mention Gobbels ... he and his cronies created a short-term society with much more efficient ways to "get rid of it's outmost unproductive part."
[/b][/quote]
their way was against the Mother's nature ways.
Getting rid of the Jews, which WAS their #1 priority,
is against mother nature's way and it's selection of the genetical pool selection, and you know the results.

Mother Nature dispersed Jews all over the world for a reason....to give the nations back what the nations lost due to
1) wrong government policies
2) deseases which kill indiscriminatly*, even the smart ones

Israel has so many problems because Mother Nature meant for Jews to be dispearsed and keep on blessing the nations with their wisdom.

NOTHING you attmpted to retort disproves my point, sire.

* - Jews were less subject to mass epidemias, because they were living in Ghettos, thus minimizing contacts with locals.

What "lie" are you referring to? I posted a link to an article from Canada about their healthcare system. Are you suggesting Canada is lying about their own healthcare system? I'm confused. :unsure:[/b][/quote]
The lie is the assumption that the article somehow proves that the problem it identified and discusses is related to the fact that Canada has a national health care system. It did identify and discuss a problem within that system; it NEVER specualted on the causes of the problem. Linking it to the evil boogeyman of socialized medicine is your conclusion - one I suspect you had prior to reading the article.

I'm not even arguing that the problems AREN'T related to that system. I'm simply pointing out that there is nothing in the article that links the problems it identified to the fact that Canada has a national health care system.

Unfortunately that may well be true.. and it was one of the things that came to mind as an Australian reading that article..

There has been a lot of press on our "hospital crisis" for years now.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/21/...5120114413.html


I still like the idea of public funded health care... most people need hospitals the most when they have children and when they are old... this is also the time in life many people can afford it least. These two groups of people are the ones public health is really meant to help most imho... and I for one think they are 2 of the most important groups in a society worth caring for.

It does appear there might be an issue with public health systems resulting in a poorer overall care... but problems may also may show up more in public systems as everyone gets medical treatment for everything that goes wrong.. rather than putting off treatment for simple things on financial grounds... just a maybe on that idea though.

From an unnamed 1992 study. Some up to date statistics would be nice.

Like I said, the system is very popular here in Australia. Why? Because it works.

Nobody in this country will ever be stuck with a $100,000 hospital bill.



Last edited by Joe Sixpack at May 23 2004, 01:03 PM

Peaches, certain states have issues regarding doctors, malpractice, and other problems that have lead to huge medical expenses and as a result, high insurance rates. The state of Nevada is one of those states.

Just for fun, ask your insurance company how much you would pay if you moved to Vegas.

Your 282 a month, that is for one person, right? How much for a family?

Alex

You pay $282 a month for insurance and you STILL pay $20 to go and see a doctor?

Sorry to hear about that.



Last edited by Joe Sixpack at May 23 2004, 01:38 PM

You pay $282 a month for insurance and you STILL pay $20 to go and see a doctor?

Sorry to hear about that.[/b][/quote]
oh my...what you completely missing is that entire world comes to USA when they need super duper surgery/treatment,
and NOBODY goes to Australia for this, even if they live in Singapore.

Why?

because of your inferior medical technology,
that's all.

eat shit, Joe
;-)))

funny we pay an "extra" fee to increase the coverage on our Canadian office workers... b/c they said the basic coverage is crap?

We have Parkland hospital here in Dallas.. where they deliver like 75 kids a day or some crazy number.. all whom are born on the State tax dollar...

funny how people can afford to buy beer, cigarettes, and fuzzy dice.. but they can't afford insurance?... or better yet.. the special edition $200/pr Nike shoes and a $100 fubu jersey...

Actually, in some cases it's NOT the same medicine :awinky: In addition, there are many generics in the US that aren't available in Canada and conversely, many generics available in Canada that aren't in the US.

And surely you've read a newspaper in the past 18 months - you're free to buy it in Canada. Ergo, if you're paying 40% for the same medicine, you're CHOOSING to do it, you're not being FORCED to do it. Back we go to "personal responsibility" :)

I long ago stopped trying to figure out what makes you "hear" things. :okthumb:[/b][/quote]
Well i noticed a reputable news org
did a story on that
so you like how the big med companies fuck us?
as for the fiddle? oprano's rednecks make me laugh
100 years ago
you owned slaves
right?
like I'll listen you guys?

another thing never made sense either...


for simple numbers...
say you make $100K a year.. in Canada..I believe they would tax you 45%or $45K

in the US you would be taxed about $26K a difference of almost $19k...

what else does Canada supply for that difference? b/c it aint a military!!!

Read my next post - I said exactly how much it was for a family :) BTW, ditto with BCBS of GA that same family can get a $3500 deductible policy for less than $250 a month. :okthumb:

OK, I did the same quote search in NV with the same parameters. $760 a month was the most expensive with $15 office visits and NO deductibles, no lifetime max.

For $228 a month, $2000 deductible, $30 office visits. $5mil lifetime maximums with prescriptions $10 for generic, $25 for name brand.

Seriously, when someone in the US tells me they CAN'T afford health insurance, looking at the facts will almost always show they WON'T afford health insurance. :awinky:

As with anything, there are exceptions to the rule. If you let your insurance lapse and you have a pre-existing condition you could easily find yourself uninsurable but most states have plans for the high risk pool they offer to cover this group. Many times they don't cover for a pre-existing condition or there is a delay. When I first got an individual policy, the least expensive companies wouldn't ever cover my migraines. BCBS had a 12 month waiting period (for coverage on the migraines only) so even though it was a little more, it was worth it for me to get it and they've been covering my migraine stuff ever since. :)



Last edited by Peaches at May 23 2004, 07:10 PM

You pay $282 a month for insurance and you STILL pay $20 to go and see a doctor?

Sorry to hear about that.[/b][/quote]
Why would you be sorry? Remember when we played the "how much in taxes do other countries pay" game? I would be paying a LOT more than $282 a month in extra taxes in Australia for my "free" healthcare! :lol: :lol:

BINGO on all three of these things!

fiddle

So, Meni, do YOU have health insurance? If so, how much do you pay and what are your benefits? If not, WHY NOT? B)

So, Meni, do YOU have health insurance? If so, how much do you pay and what are your benefits? If not, WHY NOT? B)[/b][/quote]
he didn't have medical insurance BEFORE President Bush took the office
;-)))

what an irony!
;-)))

Why would you be sorry? Remember when we played the "how much in taxes do other countries pay" game? I would be paying a LOT more than $282 a month in extra taxes in Australia for my "free" healthcare! :lol: :lol:[/b][/quote]
You contribute to the medical system here through a levy on your gross income.

You would have to have a yearly gross income (after deductions) of well over $200,000 to pay more in taxes for health care here then you (you personally paying $282 a month) do in the US.



Last edited by Joe Sixpack at May 23 2004, 04:15 PM

I'm not sure you understand how a progressive tax system works.

Just because the top rate is 45% that doesn't mean you pay 45% of ALL your income in taxes.

"WASHINGTON—A new report shows that the nation’s health care system is riddled with "quality gaps" that prevent millions of Americans from receiving "best practice" care. These gaps, the result of factors such as poor use of technology and irrational payment systems, lead to more than 57,000 avoidable deaths each year."

http://www.ncqa.org/Communications/News/sohc2003.htm

Pot meet kettle.

ah, Joe, sorry you couldn't find retorts to my taking apart your articles
;_)))