"This is a moment for America to try to deal with this without any partisan politics. This is not about politics. This is about our country. This is about how we're going to be stronger." - Kerry

I beleive in The Art of War, one of the first lessons is that if your enemy is inflicting damage upon himself, don't interfere.

Bush is going to loose this election because of his hard headedness. The American people are going to want some heads to roll. Bush refuses to fire anyone he considers loyal to him.

Tenet should have been gone a LONG time ago.

Rumsfield is someone I was a fan of, but this abuse has occured on his watch. He is ultimately responsible for the problems.

I agree 100% with you Mike, WOW a first :)

I think if the new pics and videos that come out cause a big shit storm, which they will, Rummy might be gone anyways..

For the good news, we actually got our first Apology from Bush :(

Amazing how the libs were so hung up on the apology angle.

I do not think Bush owes an apology for 9-11 or for invading Iraq.

Mike,

I wasn't really looking for or expecting an apology about 911 or iraq, but I mean overall you know.

Clinton did apoligise quite a few time when his admin screwed up, and no I don't just mean monica :) LOL

Clinton would tell anyone whatever they wanted to hear. I know its hard to grasp the concept of leadership - leaders don't make their decisions based on polls.

Ahhh I see, so Rove and bush and company don't watch those polls closely and make decisions based on them??

Come on Mike, it goes both ways. All Politicians once accepting there office have already put a "litte devil" in there pocket :)

Todd, it's really very simple in Mike's world.

Bush is good.

Kerry is bad.

I do not think Bush follows polls at all. You can say a lot about Bush, but he does not pander.

He clearly stated his posistion on Iraq, and said he will follow it even if the polls are against him. He has staked his re-election on it. If he was following polls he would be apologizing, firing cabinent members, and pulling troops out ASAP. ( Remember Clinton and Somolia?)

Bush is a true leader. You may not like him, or think he is leading in the wrong direction, but he does not rely on polls and focus groups to direct his policies.

Todd, it's really very simple in Mike's world.

Bush is good.

Kerry is bad.[/b][/quote]
No PD, that is wrong.

Bush is a leader.
Kerry is a panderer who does what is politically expediant.

Kerry is trying to be like Clinton. Too bad there is a long voting record for him that people can track his flip flops. Kerry also lacks the charisma and smoothness Clinton has.

PD the difference between you and I is I can give credit where credit is due. You are so blinded by partisanship that you actually beleive Kerry is a leader!

Mike, Bush isn't a leader - he is the man at the front of a group of cronies pushing him forward. People aren't getting fired because they are the ones that put him in office to start with. he owes them. Talk about political expediency.

What you can pandering is what others call "following the will of the people" or "listening to the people". How frightfully democratic that is.

Alex

I don't find any particularly outstanding leadership qualities in Bush. I have heard the claim made, and have seen countless attempts to sell him as such - but I ain't buying.

Alex, PD I guess it it was too much to expect you guys to understand the definition of leadership.

I am sure you both think Clinton is a fine example of a leader.

Thank goodness we live in a Republic, it is people like ya'll who make the idea of direct democracy so scary!

I love it ... the same guy who was sure I'd blame the entire Iraqi prisoner debacle on Bush is calling me "blinded by partisanship." Bush has adopted some policies and taken some actions that you agree with on an ideaolgical basis, so you characterize him as a leader.

Who's being partisan here?

Leadership is an arbitrary quality that reasonable people can disagree about without it being partisan.

To take it down to a level you seem more comfortable with ... many of the men John Kerry served with in Vietnam have described him as a leader - while few seem to remember the President's service in the national guard.

Who's the leader?

This thread is a breath of fresh air :-)

Finally - I am reading things - I pray - that will be the downfall of this idiot.

"Bush is going to loose this election because of his hard headedness."

"Bush isn't a leader - he is the man at the front of a group of cronies pushing him forward."

I have been waiting for some time for something to come along - that would cripple the re-election of this man - and I hope finally - that this will do it.

Otherwise - America is fucked.

Who cares if it's Abraham Lincoln - or whomever - let's see who the running mate will be - at the convention in Boston this year.

And I'm a Bostonian - raised on the Kennedy - Kerry/Dukakis era. Christ - I remember when Kerry was L.Governor...........et al.

*********

Raw Alex - I met you once in '2000 in Vegas. Have you ever had any word about our friend Sharon Morgan??? And you are spot on - about Bush.

Colin - I missed you in '2000 in Lauderdale for lunch............you never showed - but just remember - "Father Time" - always stays in touch. Looking forward to when we can meet.

Again, to take it down to a level you can understand - you ought to move to Canada, because you are the opposite side of the coin from everything you accuse Alex* of being.

or me, John Kerry, John McCain, CNN - actually, anyone who questions the Gospel According to Rove

That Adolf Hitler sure was an effective leader
Charlie Manson? incredible leader
No one second guessed Genghis Khan on the battlefield

PD, I have read accounts by those who served with JK, they were not that flattering.

I beleive there was a public letter written and signed by over 20 people who servered directly under or above Kerry in Vietnam and all of them said he was unfit to be President. Many of the people who signed this letter are apolitical, some are even democrats.

Bush is a strong leader. Is he effective? Has he made mistakes? Is he hard headed? These are all issues that are on the table.

I know its easier for you to beleive he is a mindless robot controled by special oil interests.

Little is a gross understatement


Gratitude usually has a very short shelf life

Fuck all your politicians, they all sucks eggs - of the rotten variety

Go ahead and vote for the lessor of evils again - how fucked is that concept

I'm quite sure you have read ONLY those reports about John Kerry that portray him in a negative light, Mike. How much of that letter (which I have read) is due to politics, disapproval of him taking the option to leave after the 3rd time wounded, or his actions when he returned from and began to publicly oppose the war, will never be known. There are just as many who say differently.

Still haven't found anybody who remembers dubya while he fulfilled the valiant role of defending the souther border of the United States from the Mexican Air Force, however.

I realize that in Mike's world this whole thought may just be too complex, but I don't believe that George Bush is mindless, and while I believe he, like most any politician, dances to the fiddlers that are playing at his dance (oil industries being one of several), I don't see his administration as one vast conspiracy.

Let me put it to you this way ... I believe that my opinion of GW is far more complex than your opinion of John Kerry.

As far as "effective" goes - if he isn't effective, he isn't a leader regardless of how strong he may be - in that case, strong just suggests pigheadedness. I'm sure the leadership of the Polish horse cavalry that charged Nazi tanks in September, 1939, had strong leaders. I am quite sure that George Armstrong Custer was a strong leader.

Of more importance to the issue in Iraq, the French politicians and generals who ordered offensive after offensive in World War I were strong leaders - and it cost them the next war.

So, enlighten me, Mikey. What (besides the fact that Ari McClellan/Scott Fliescher/every talking-point-programmed Republican has been repeating it for three years now) makes George Bush stand out as a "strong" leader? Of what value is strong leadership if it is ineffective?

And more important ... when did "strong" replace "focus?" as the word to be repeated so often by the Republicans as to make one want to break something whenever you hear the word?



Last edited by PornoDoggy at May 10 2004, 04:41 PM

Little is a gross understatement


Gratitude usually has a very short shelf life

Fuck all your politicians, they all sucks eggs - of the rotten variety

Go ahead and vote for the lessor of evils again - how fucked is that concept[/b][/quote]
One clown or another will be performing.

Picking the clown who will offend you the least makes a lot more sense to me than to be too smart, too hip, too sophisticated, or too cool to vote.

Just MHO ...

How about just too fucking disgusted, appalled and revolted

How can anyone accept either of the clowns trying to get the big job is beyond me

Fucking sheep, thinking there are no other choices

and I'm too much a lazy sod to lead (or follow) the charge for reform, or even a sensible choice


What if there was an election .....

..... and nobody voted


Edit - both the top contending clowns offend me too much to be considered for the position of Dog Catcher, much less leader of the Free World

Out of 290,000,000+ people Bush and Kerry are the best we can do - that is incomprehensible



Last edited by Vick at May 10 2004, 05:00 PM

There is just something about Bush that looks shifty to me. As a lifetime Republician, I have not figured out what it is. I like his plain talk, but maybe it is the eyes..... I just don't trust him. Like he is trying to be something he isn't.

Not sold on Kerry either..... there were several others that I would have opted for before Kerry.

Ummm, Damn. I'm confused. I thought it was the other way around. Maybe I was high. ;-)

Colin: I was going to eat lunch with you, then I got high... :-)

neilski: remind me... the name sounds SO familiar, my mind isn't what it use to be (cold canadian winters...)

sharpie: when I see Bush speak, I am always put off by a combination of his eyes always shifting, and that almost smirk he seems to have on his face all the time... I always feel that he is trying to pull a fast one, and is about to stop and say "HA! I got you with that one!"... but he is always "serious".

PD: Mike hates it when I say this, but he drank the koolaid. He has bought the Bush / republican line 105% and has had the anti-truth deflectors installed around himself to avoid any unwanted facts from getting in and distrubing his views on the matter. It is actually fun to watch. You are spot on when you talk about "pigheadedness" often being mistaken for leadership. That is just being the first lemming off the cliff, rather than the last. Big shit, your still a dead lemming!

Here is a good question:

Outside of attacking Iraq and afgahnistan, exactly WHAT has Bush lead the US to? Higher deficits? More Government employees? More fear? More Paranoia? I am being really honest here, tell me what has been on the agenda that has gotten done. I am at a loss.

Alex

I keep expecting W. to sell me a lemon of a car and have me leave the lot with a big smile on my face

I keep expecting Kerry to sell me a car but give me the wrong warranty and when I try to help him correct his error, he changes the whole warranty except for what was wrong and then tell me ther was nothing wrong with the warranty in the first place.

I'd still never trust either one of these bozos to mow my grass or watch my kids, but sadly, I have to make a choice in November between which of these cocksuckers will fuck me less...

Sun Tzu afficionado you say ?

Kerry and Bush both being members of the Skull and Bones secret society, and taking into account that Bush put 5 of his S&B pals in top positions, I think that what is happening is not Bush against Kerry but S&B major operation to run the country.

"One who knows in advance the Tao of the circuitous and direct is victorious"

and

"One skilled at battle takes a stand in the ground of no defeat.

And so does not loose the enemy's defeat.

Therefore, the victorious military is first victorious and after that does battle.

The defeated military first does battle and after that seeks victory."

This guy is a leader? I'm getting the strange feeling Cheney is calling the shots and this guy, when seeking advice from his father or anyone; asks his "higher" father...

I don't like anyone that holds blindly to faith, whether that be religion, science, political ideals - but the notion of the person leading the most absolutely dominant military force the world has ever conceived seeking advice from his "higher" father...is frightening.

Why do I have flashbacks from that shitty movie "Escape From LA".

isn't that the script from a Simpsons episode?

if both stock and bond market keep on falling, while the only market rising is oil-
they BOTH gonna lose the elections
;-)))

Gee, Vick ... you make me realize I miss my dad and my grandparents.

First time I heard your rap was by my maternal grandfather, when Nixon (cocksucker'd call his mother a Commie to get two votes, and will get us into a war just because he'll piss Kruschev off) ran against Kennedy (he won't give all the country to the Pope, just what the niggers don't want).

Next time I heard it was from my own father, when Nixon ran against McGovern. That replaced "get a haircut and a real job" as Sunday dinner conversation one time, when his mother reminded him that her father said essentially the same thing - about Roosevelt/Landon.

The giants of history and their opponents (Lincoln, both Roosevelts, et al) were heaped with the same sort of disdain in their day that you invoke today ... and the country seems to have muddled through quite well.

Hell, I'm pretty optomistic that we'll even survive Bush. :D



Last edited by PornoDoggy at May 11 2004, 03:18 AM

I forgot about that song ;-)

I do not think Bush follows polls at all. You can say a lot about Bush, but he does not pander.

He clearly stated his posistion on Iraq, and said he will follow it even if the polls are against him. He has staked his re-election on it. If he was following polls he would be apologizing, firing cabinent members, and pulling troops out ASAP. ( Remember Clinton and Somolia?)

Bush is a true leader. You may not like him, or think he is leading in the wrong direction, but he does not rely on polls and focus groups to direct his policies.[/b][/quote]
Bush is a true leader?
ahhahahhahahah
are you joking
cheney hold my hand
i stutter in speeches
i'm not that bright
i ruined my first couple of businesses
My daddy saved my ass
a leader?
what the fuck has HE Done?
90 days vacation?

I fail to see how anyone wouldn't see either Kerry or Bush as leaders. Might not agree with where they have/would lead us but still.

I'll keep saying it

I can't believe that out of 290,000,000+ Americans Bush and Kerry are the best we can do

Neither is fit to be elected Dog Catcher

Colin I don't see either as a leader, at least not someone I would follow

Fuck all your politicians

and for you Meni, Fuck your Stern too!

PD - great story!

But neither Kerry or Bush can compare with Nixon or (gasp) Kennedy
Just keeps getting worse




Do you remember, your President Nixon?
Do you remember, the bills you have to pay?
Or even yesterday?
Have been the un-American?

Just you and your idol sing falsetto
'bout Leather, leather everywhere, and
Not a myth left from the ghetto
Well, well, well, would you carry a razor
In case, just in case of depression?

But the freak, and his type, all for nothing
He misses a step and cuts his hand,
but Showing nothing, he swoops like a song
She cries "Where have all Papa's heroes gone?"

All the way from Washington
Her bread-winner begs off the bathroom floor
We live for just these twenty years
Do we have to die for the fifty more?"