http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040402/D.../D81MMVJ81.html

MADRID, Spain (AP) - Police found a bomb Friday under the track of Spain's bullet train line between Madrid and Seville, the Spanish interior minister said. Bomb-disposal experts alerted by a railway employee found 22-24 pounds of explosive that might be dynamite about 40 miles south of Madrid, Interior Minister Angel Acebes said.

The explosives were connected to a detonator with a 450-foot cable, the minister told a news conference.

The track is used by Spain's Ave trains, which can reach speeds of 186 mph.

Acebes said it was not known who placed the bomb.

The bomb's discovery came less than a month after 10 backpack bombs ripped through four commuter trains in Madrid, killing 191 people and injuring more than 1,800. The focus of the investigation is a Moroccan extremist group with links to al-Qaida. The bombs were detonated with cell phones attached to the explosives.

On Thursday, police in northern Spain defused three letter bombs addressed to journalists in Madrid.

Acebes said the origin of the letter bombs has not been determined, although the mechanism of the bombs is "similar to those that have been used by anarchist groups on previous occasions."

savages...

Popular belief goes that the first bombing of a Spanish train moved the electorate to throw out the gov't who was supporting Bush and the US.

So the terrorist claimed a victory, and realized they could possibly bully the Spanish.

Now you can see the results. If you give in to terrorism, if you give them what you want, they will continue to push. The stated goal of Al Quada, and most Islamic terrorism is to destroy all non-beleivers, and world domination of their brand of Islam.

Maybe the Spanish people will find their BALLS, and get back into the game. The only way to win is to stay strong and DEFEAT the enemy!

Appeasement does NOT work - it only makes the problems worse!

Mikey, Mikey, Mikey ... gotta give you credit. Once you learn a song, you sing it for all it's worth.

First of all, you continue to equate the decision of the Spanish electorate to turn out the party in power to (in a wonderful high-school sports analogy) a "lack of balls." You refuse to acknowledge that it's just not that simple - that the patently false and pathetic attempts by the government to blame ETA in the face of the evidence probably played a major role in that decision.

Second, you must not know that Spain suffered 20 years of terrorist attacks from ETA before al Qaida was spun off the CIA proxy fight in Afghanistan.

Third, you apparently don't know that Spain's had on-again, off-again battles with anarchists since before the Spainish Civil War.

So ... perhaps your problem is that you are just too sophisticated to understand the situation in Spain. Unlike you, the Spanish people don't have enough appreciation of real politik to continue to support a government that a) engaged in a war that was unpopular with the majority of citizens, B) suffered an attack as a result of that decision, and c) tried to shift the blame for that attack away from the perpetrators for political purposes.

That's the pesky, annoying thing about democracy, Mikey - lying cocksuckers tend to become unpopular and get voted out of office by unsophisticated folks who expect at least a little bit of truth out of the mouths of their politicians.

The bombs may very well be alQaida. However, if you know anything about Spain - or the world - you will know that not all terrorists are alQaida.

Maybe the events in Spain demostrate that some of the opponents of the Iraqi escapade were right in the first place - that while Iraq had no connection to alQaida BEFORE the war, it would become an alQaida cause after it started.

Mike,

For the love of R-n , just give it up!!! ;-)))

PD: I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. There are many groups that had "struggles" with the government before. Every country that has seen a terror attack has had terror bombs from local groups before.

It isn't hard to draw a direct line from US actions to more terror actions. It is the same pattern that is seen in Israel today... the harder to government pushes, the more the other side resorts to drastic action. In both cases, the weaker group uses terror style attacks to keep things "even" as far as they see. In both cases, they use religeon as a motivating factor to make these attacks happen.

The tit for tat act / retaliation / retribution / payback / evening of the score / eye for an eye horsehit that has been middle east politics for as long as I can remember looks to be spreading to the entire world. Terrorists drag everyone down, and Bush is stupid enough to get engaged in a war that cannot be won until 100% of the other side is dead.

It sucks.

Alex

We can agree that it sucks, but ...

Now wait just a minute here, Alex. You are doing almost exactly the same thing as Mike - you are confusing the war in Iraq with the war on terror.

The United States is engaged in a war on terror that cannot be won until 100% of the other side is dead, and that is NOT George Bush's fault. I have absolutley no problem with fighting that war whatsoever. I would be more than happy to put the fire out on the dead burning bodies of the members of alQaida and like-minded groups by pissing on them on al Jezera television. I promise to chant an "ohmmmmm", sing kum-by-yah and feel guilty about it afterwords, but that's what it will take to win that war.

As much as I think Bush is the root of all evil, I cannot blame him for that war. He wasn't anywhere near the federal government when that war started. The war on Islamic fundamentalism is very real. The fools that blather on about creating a democracy in Iraq don't seem to realize that some of the governments in the Islamic world that were making steps toward implementing democracy have had to scale those efforts back because of attacks from Islamic fundamentalists. They are every bit as mistaken as those who think we just need to understand them (the terrorists) better, "atone" for our past sins, or whatever the current peacenik rhetoric is.

The war on terror and Islamic fundamentalism is very real. In the war on terror, Iraq was a colossal mistake - comprable to attacking Hitler's nominal ally, Spain's Franco, in 1945, rather than invading France.

PD: the war on terror and the war in Iraq are two different things (one is always needed, the other one a total sham). However, if you back up a couple of steps, you can see that the Bin Ladin situation is an outcrop of the first war in Iraq. Bin Ladin's excuse for hating the US is that the infidels have troops in the Saudi territories. That is where this really starts.

As for Spain, well, without the war in Iraq, I doubt that the bombings would not have occured in the manner they did. It isn't to change the outcome of the Iraq conflict, but rather to isolate the US and make allies less likely to support future actions of any sort.

Alex

Not sure you can handle this, Mike.

I may have to tear my "liberal" card into tiny pieces now.

I again find myself agreeing with you.

I think that's as niave an assumption as the idea that you can turn Iraq into a democracy and use it as a base for further operations. You can no more simplify the matter down to that than you can assume that all Muslims are Islamic fundamentalists. Even you refer to the infidel intrusion into Saudi as an excuse. If not for that, it would be something else.

What the Islamic fundamentalists want is to turn the Islamic world into Afghanistan. Even the mullahs in Iran fear these folks. Morocco has had to scale back attempts to democratize due to attacks from Islamic fundamentalists.

The clash between the West and Islamic fundamentalists is inevitable. How we fight it, and where we fight it, is the question that needs to be debated.

At it's widest point, the Straits of Gibraltar that separate Spain from Morocco is 1/3 the distance between Florida and Cuba. Spain has economic interests in Morocco that would have lead to the conflict involving them regardless of their participation in the Iraqi diversion. I have no doubt that this was part of the muddle-headed thinking of the Spanish government when it got involved in the war - the American right are not the only people with their head up their ass.

Again, the war in Iraq was merely a pretext to carry out attacks that would have taken place anyway - if not now, then soon enough.

Trust me, I am not known for taking an opportunity to blame Bush for something (I think Mike AI would serve as a reference) - but the war with Islamic fundamentalists is not his fault. I don't dispute that the war in Iraq is an unnecessary diversion that has set the real war back considerably, but a discussion based on defending as factual the pathetic excuses offered by the terrorists as justification for their acts does not contribute to the debate over where/whom/when to fight the battles that will have to be fought.



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Apr 2 2004, 02:31 PM

Oh yeah, I just wanted to add this:

Appeasement and Attack are two extremes of a very long road. In between those two points is an assload of grey, including politics, and external pressure. Appeasement (or all out war) is an extreme answer, and in this situation, extreme answers are proving not to be good answers.

I think it sad when the situation can only be discussed and thought of in these extremes. The real answer lies somewhere away from the poles, I suspect.

Alex

Got any suggestions Alex?

You can say that about everything and always make some point about some hypothetical cause and effect relationship. that does not change the fact that religious fundamentalists have always existed and they advocate the destruction of the west. That is the foundation of their teachings. To rally people, you need a cause and en enemy. That enemy to the poorest and most primative nations on earth will always be the most successful and most prosperous.

I dont agree at all that there is any situation that would make terrorism go away other than the complete and total destruction of terrorists, terrorist networks, funding, save havens etc. I think its extremely naive to believe that if someone would just appease extremists, they would go away. These are flawed people by nature and others exploit them.

Bin Laden... did this... Bin Laden did that because... So what? My opinion is that Bin Ladens original declaration of war against the US is a symptom. Not the problem. If it was not US troops in Saudi Arabia, it would be Isreal or some other situation that gives them a spring board to rally impoverished people behind twisted religious beliefs to fight a losing idealogical battle.

just his usual "the US sucks" , "republicans suck" , "Bush sucks"... "and thats all i have to say"

:P

Sea spot run. See Dick run. See Jane run with Dick. You really need to get a more sophisticated view of the real world, Mike. You been living in gated communities for far too long. You truly have no idea of the law of consequences do you? Here is a test. This happened in Russia, M. Gorbachev cut back on Vodka production. All of a sudden people had no bread to eat. Vodka laws were relaxed, bread appeared. I am sure you are puzzled as hell. The world does not function like Florida you know. It is slightly more complex. You really should think, before you post such simplistic bombast. At least get your hood drycleaned first so it sounds plausible.

just his usual "the US sucks" , "republicans suck" , "Bush sucks"...

:P[/b][/quote]
Two out of three ain't bad ... :D

Its ok, mikey. You can use your real name. I hope I didn't hurt your feelings that badly.

JR, as always, you are all seeing and all knowing. I bow to superior intellect and total understand of all in the world.

Vick: I don't have specific suggestions. I feel deep down that the current extreme paths (attack! attack! ... and my favorite "we will force you to be free!" vs do nothing, appeasement, ignornace, etcc) are not going to find answers, but with rather cause more of the same to occur.

More importanly, the current trends show the US getting more and more isolated, and the terror / muslim / arab groups becoming more powerful and more influencial. It isn't obvious, but they do have their hands on many of the levers of power now, at least indirectly. The move by OPEC to reduce oil output at a time of high prices is possibly one of those levers, pulled from far.

I don't have any good answers, I wish I did.

Alex

Alex - I don't think there are any good answers

But given the situation as it is (we, the USA at war) I really wish we would be more aggressive

If you make the commitment, you have to follow up

and of a lot of challenging choices, the war we are in now may be the best of a bad lot.

I don't know that economic sanctions or other political solutions would leverage enough pressure to solve the challenges. I don't know that anything can solve the challenges of terrorism

Do we face an enemy of extremists that will have to be eradicated or they will try to eradicate us?

PD I understand Spain's history, especially with the Basques. My best friend is from the region.

That is why Spain should know that giving into al quada, is only going to encourage ALL groups who want their agenda's heard and acted upon. Spain's actions will not only embolden al quada, but also the Basque's, anarchist, communists, fascists, and anyone else who has an axe to grind.

Appeasement only encourages these people. There will be more terrorist attacks in Spain.

I know PD and Alex your brain's cannot comprehend these ideas...

yes, please bow and do not rise until given permission to do so.



Last edited by JR at Apr 2 2004, 12:51 PM

i think people can't grasp this. they have to be crushed. societies and groups function as organisms. terrorists groups are organisms. they are people rallied behind a body of beliefs that serves as the cohesive force, that binds them together and gives their lives meaning and purpose. any organisms first priority is its own survival... for a terrorist group, that only means 1 thing... committing acts of terrorism. they do not want anything specific. when it serves a purpose, they rally behind specific causes if a reasonable cause exists in their eyes that will serve their own purpose, when not, they rally behind broader ideas of "killing the infidels in the name of Allah" and so on.

fucked up people are born everyday and many would aspire for power at any cost. even the murder of innocent people... even at the cost of their own citizens. its been happening since the dawn of civilization. it's a horrible idea to believe that "if we would just do.... xxx, they would go away". its like believing that if you run from the barking dog... he will leave you alone. the opposite happens, he feels emboldened and he attacks at the first sign of weakness.




Last edited by JR at Apr 2 2004, 12:59 PM

Ahem, I'd just like to remind everyone that "an eye for an eye" is in the Old Testatment which is used by and shared by Christians, Muslims and Jews alike.

And it was among the first laws codified by Hammurabi and in use for thousands of years prior to the establishment of any modern religion.


This has been today's Retribution Fun Fact! :rolleyes:

Mikey, Mikey, Mikey ... can't you read, or don't you? I disagree with Alex as much as I disagree with you.

I think your entire understanding of the situation indicates that you are the one with a "...brain...[that] cannot comprehend" the real situation.

I know you like the world simple and nice and simple and neat and simple and tied up in a handy little package and simple - but it just doesn't work that way.

The decision to unilaterally invade Iraq was a major mistake in the very real war on terror. Yes, I know they are Arabs, and I know they are Islamic - but it WAS a sideshow to the war on terror until we merged the two issues. It has seriously damaged the credibility of the United States. It has weakened the governments of those allies that backed, and strengthened the opposition in some of those countries. It has given the alQaida types another cause to rally around.

Spain will continue to fight ETA, anarchists, facists, and the natural animosity of Islamic terrorists that they face just because of their proximity to Morocco. If they face a tougher fight, you cannot just blame the terrorists - the pathetic attempt to shift blame to ETA has to bear some responsibility. If anyone served the purposes of the terrorists, it was the lying cocksuckers that tried to blame ETA.

I know, I know ... it's not nearly as easy to digest as "European pussies sucumb to Islamic terrorists." Sorry about that, but the world is just a little more complex than that.

Mikey, Mikey, Mikey ... can't you read, or don't you? I disagree with Alex as much as I disagree with you.

I think your entire understanding of the situation indicates that you are the one with a "...brain...[that] cannot comprehend" the real situation.

I know you like the world simple and nice and simple and neat and simple and tied up in a handy little package and simple - but it just doesn't work that way.

The decision to unilaterally invade Iraq was a major mistake in the very real war on terror. Yes, I know they are Arabs, and I know they are Islamic - but it WAS a sideshow to the war on terror until we merged the two issues. It has seriously damaged the credibility of the United States. It has weakened the governments of those allies that backed, and strengthened the opposition in some of those countries. It has given the alQaida types another cause to rally around.

Spain will continue to fight ETA, anarchists, facists, and the natural animosity of Islamic terrorists that they face just because of their proximity to Morocco. If they face a tougher fight, you cannot just blame the terrorists - the pathetic attempt to shift blame to ETA has to bear some responsibility. If anyone served the purposes of the terrorists, it was the lying cocksuckers that tried to blame ETA.

I know, I know ... it's not nearly as easy to digest as "European pussies sucumb to Islamic terrorists." Sorry about that, but the world is just a little more complex than that.[/b][/quote]


I am not going to defend any politician in Spain, I understand that he tried to divert the blame, as well as launched a flawed investigation. There are millions of nueances that came into play - HOWEVER, the broad lesson that terrorists have taken away from this is that Spain is weak, and can be pushed around through violence. Terrorists of all stripes are paying attention to this.

As far as Iraq and the war on terror - you know my posistion. Iraq is a great base of operations to put pressure on all countries in the region - especially Saudi Arabia. We can pull our troops from the Kingdom and have them stationed in Iraq.

Iraq is now the center playing field for terrorists, I would much rather have the US Marines fighting terrorists in the streets of Baghdad then the NYPD and thousands of innocent civilians in Manhatten.

I think Bush has not been agressive enough, the problem is he cannot win with people like yourself. If he is not agressive nad prepaired he gets blamed for dropping the ball. Yet when he acts decisively with military action, the liberals cry we are hurting our standing in the world, blah blah blah.

We should be putting much more pressure - indirect and direct on Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia.

What I have never been able to figure out about you Mikey is why you post so much about stuff you have no idea of. I thought that maybe it was just to drive traffic and make a buck or two. But then you bragged about being wealthy, so that couldn't be the reason. I mean you do drive an Escalade as we all know. I guess too many cool cars would be a little hard for you to sueeze into. But then I started to think that maybe you actually do believe this shit you post. You are a prime example of an American who is armed with a deadly weapon that you really should have no right to use....the vote.

What I have never been able to figure out about you Mikey is why you post so much about stuff you have no idea of. I thought that maybe it was just to drive traffic and make a buck or two. But then you bragged about being wealthy, so that couldn't be the reason. I mean you do drive an Escalade as we all know. I guess too many cool cars would be a little hard for you to sueeze into. But then I started to think that maybe you actually do believe this shit you post. You are a prime example of an American who is armed with a deadly weapon that you really should have no right to use....the vote.[/b][/quote]


Yep life is great.... to be a citizen of the most powerful nation in the world.

Now it is clear to my why you are insane.

so people who "should" vote are people that share your political views and opinions? in case you missed it, the Soviet Union collapsed and the wall came down, Mousillini was killed and Hitler was defeated.

Yep life is great.... to be a citizen of the most powerful nation in the world.

Now it is clear to my why you are insane.[/b][/quote]
Oh and Escalade is really owned by GM.... they gave me 0% financing for 5 years!

I like using other peoples money for my personal benefit!



:D

Yep life is great.... to be a citizen of the most powerful nation in the world.

Now it is clear to my why you are insane.[/b][/quote]
You just keep telling yourself that Mikey. Feel safe and secure behind your gates and Escalade. You are living in a dream. On 9/11 the most powerful nation in the world got their asses kicked. It just showed the US is not the smartest nation in the world. That is your biggest weakness. We all know it can happen again and maybe even much worse. The world has changed. And after your last moronic response, my argument about you being allowed to vote stands.
That attitude gets your citizens killed. And it will get worse before it gets better because of this. And remember dude, you were only born there, you have nothing to do with building it.

You just keep telling yourself that Mikey. Feel safe and secure behind your gates and Escalade. You are living in a dream. On 9/11 the most powerful nation in the world got their asses kicked. It just showed the US is not the smartest nation in the world. That is your biggest weakness. We all know it can happen again and maybe even much worse. The world has changed. And after your last moronic response, my argument about you being allowed to vote stands.
That attitude gets your citizens killed. And it will get worse before it gets better because of this. And remember dude, you were only born there, you have nothing to do with building it.[/b][/quote]


Murdering 3,000 innocent civilians is not a stroke of brilliance, to me it is an act of desperation. It finally woke up the "sleeping giant" and now we will mop up all those who wish us harm.

Glad to know what side you are on.

Be thankful that we engage our enemies in a civilized manner, or else we could turn the entire middle east into a modern Carthage... Our enemies benefit from our compasion and humanity.

Murdering 3,000 innocent civilians is not a stroke of brilliance, to me it is an act of desperation. It finally woke up the "sleeping giant" and now we will mop up all those who wish us harm.

Glad to know what side you are on.

Be thankful that we engage our enemies in a civilized manner, or else we could turn the entire middle east into a modern Carthage... Our enemies benefit from our compasion and humanity.[/b][/quote]
I really feel like I am talking to a six year old here. You have no idea whose "side" I am on.
The sleeping giant has been awoken, but has no idea how to kill little David. The jury is still out on present strategy. Personally I think the US is shooting itself in the foot. Remember....Iraq has nothing to do with terror. Any thinking person now knows this.

Your enemies do not all benefit from your "compassion and humanity". Did you bomb, kill and devestate Cambodia with compassion? Did you roast and maim Viet Namese with napalm in a compassionate manner. I won't even mention that compassionate American weapon of choice in SE Asia....agent orange. I am just pointing out that you are no better than those you have chosen as your enemies. And you did choose them.

Now before you get precious and apoplectic, I don't hate Americans. I only think that at the present time you live in a misguided nation. The world is not as simple as you would like it to be. Your simple "solutions" get your fellow citizens killed. You are strutting through the world with a big "Kick Me" sign stuck to your back. Leading with your chin.
It is sad to see a great nation afraid of its own shadow.
Your opinions, like your vote are ill informed and dangerous. But talking to you truly is like talking to a moron. You never will get it until something happens in your own back yard and trust me I don't wish that on anyone, not even you.

I don't understand why this is important. It's like the kid at school who brags about how his dad is the richest or the toughest.

Who really cares?

Do you think we all want to be citizens of the "most powerful nation in the world? I'm happy being Australian. I would prefer living in Europe than America.

Not everyone likes or wants to live by American values... and why is that Canadian and Australian cities are always considered the most livable?

Your Americanism is as blind as any other religion.




Last edited by Joe Sixpack at Apr 2 2004, 04:03 PM

What is really happening is the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". As the US makes more enemies, they end up with stronger and more organized resistance. "the friends of my enemy are my enemy"... and if they are weaker or more easily exploited, then let's attack them. So Spain gets it... the price of having 1500 TOTAL troops on the ground in two countries.

Alex

I really feel like I am talking to a six year old here. You have no idea whose "side" I am on.
The sleeping giant has been awoken, but has no idea how to kill little David. The jury is still out on present strategy. Personally I think the US is shooting itself in the foot. Remember....Iraq has nothing to do with terror. Any thinking person now knows this.

Your enemies do not all benefit from your "compassion and humanity". Did you bomb, kill and devestate Cambodia with compassion? Did you roast and maim Viet Namese with napalm in a compassionate manner. I won't even mention that compassionate American weapon of choice in SE Asia....agent orange. I am just pointing out that you are no better than those you have chosen as your enemies. And you did choose them.

Now before you get precious and apoplectic, I don't hate Americans. I only think that at the present time you live in a misguided nation. The world is not as simple as you would like it to be. Your simple "solutions" get your fellow citizens killed. You are strutting through the world with a big "Kick Me" sign stuck to your back. Leading with your chin.
It is sad to see a great nation afraid of its own shadow.
Your opinions, like your vote are ill informed and dangerous. But talking to you truly is like talking to a moron. You never will get it until something happens in your own back yard and trust me I don't wish that on anyone, not even you.[/b][/quote]

Your posts remind me of why I live in a gated community!

:lol:

I don't understand why this is important. It's like the kid at school who brags about how his dad is the richest or the toughest.

Who really cares?

Do you think we all want to be citizens of the "most powerful nation in the world? I'm happy being Australian. I would prefer living in Europe than America.

Not everyone likes or wants to live by American values... and why is that Canadian and Australian cities are always considered the most livable?

Your Americanism is as blind as any other religion.[/b][/quote]


Joe, I respect your opinion. I would not expect you to think otherwise....

Countries that take sides have enemies.

Countries (including the US at the start of WWII) that don't participate have enemies.

So gee I guess it's either do something and get hit, or do nothing and get hit, or be proactive and hit first.


.. Btw, if Canada ever were to have a terrorist attack on it's soil from outside, which two countries would it call first and expect aid and to join them in battle?

No, don't answer; the question is purely rhetorical.

Your posts remind me of why I live in a gated community!

:lol:[/b][/quote]
I bet it does, Mikey. You guys who have never walked it like they talk it and pay others to do their dirty work. Imagine if you ever had to lay your life on the line. Or as you say in America...put yourself in harms way. Please tell us about how you have ever risked your neck for your country. You talk large. Now impress us with your freekin courage and what you have ever done. Purple hearts go to the front of the line. This should be rich.

Edit: Please let me know if you think other people's kids lives are less valuable than yours. I have a feeling you do.



Last edited by theduderocks at Apr 2 2004, 05:34 PM

What an unmitigated load of fucking moronic horseshit. We were attacked by terrorists, not invaded. The action in Baghdad, which is periphial at best to the action against alQaida, more that likely has driven more formerly undecided people into the hands of alQaida and not done a FUCKIKNG thing to make the people of Manhatan, San Francisco, L.A., Chicago, Des Moines, or Bum-Fucking Alabama one BIT safer. Rhetorically it has a certain appeal to the brain dead and the incurably idiotic - but if you are stupid enough to believe it, then maybe asswipedude has a point about the danger you present at the ballot box.

Maybe another lesson that should be learned from this is that politicians who lie to the people - whether it be about why they go to war or who is attacking them - ought to be very concerned for their jobs.

I recognize that the Bush government wants us to believe that - but I have serious doubts. IMHO, a far more dangerous (and unfortunately, far more likely) turn of events is that we have unleashed very domestic forces within Iraq. So, sure, there may be alQaida forces at play in Iraq - but if you think they are all there, and if you think that the Iraqi excursion is making us any safer, then I fear you are seriously deluding yourself.

Just so you know, I'm typing very slowly in the vain hope that you can keep up with me. I do not blame Bush for 9/11. I will also agree that he took decisive military action.

Attacking Iraq did not do one single thing to weaken alQaida. Attacking Iraq did nothing to make the United States safer. When the United States fought a two-front war the last time, we defered action against the initial aggressor (Japan) in order to confront a greater danger (Germany). We did not respond to the attack on Pearl Harbor by invading facist Spain. We did not respond to the attack on Pearl Harbor by invading the South American countries friendly to the Axis.

Decisive action is fine - but the decisive action should be related to the real threat.

Right ... let's just make those countries as stable as we've made Iraq.

BTW ... alQaida (remember alQaida - they're the nasty people who murdered all those New Yorkers you claim you're so concerned about) is operating from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia, and a host of other places - not Iran, Syria and Saudia Arabia. So gee ... let's take some MORE decisive action, huh?



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Apr 2 2004, 08:35 PM

"We should be putting much more pressure - indirect and direct on Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia."
You already have. Your influence is obviously not what you think. They already think you are a bunch of wankers and you are proving them right. Instead of diplomacy, America flexes its weakening muscle.
What I do think is interesting, is how obvious this whole thing is and how blind morons like Mikey are.
It is as plain as day. The outcome is obvious. Unless.....the United States stops acting like a bunch of Mike AI's and Serge Opranos and shows some sensitivity in dealing with the majority of the planet which, can sink the US faster than a Led Zeppelin.
Jingoism is not an American long suit. You have to be British to pull that off.

For hitting Afghanistan, I give Bush an "A". (Yeah, you heard me!)

For hitting Iraq ... I applaud it ... but mostly in theory. For the lame reason given to go in, an "F". For not planting WMDs (let's be real, goverments have done far worse), an "F". For still being there, an "F-".

Mike, Iran has American and (some) international armies on both sides of it now. Iran is contained. Syria has us on one side of it now, but too much travel room for terrorists, ditto the Saudis who like to play clean on the outside, while funding terrorists under the table when they think no one is looking.

Joe it appears anti-Americanism is your religion.

PD, for reasons menitioned already above I mostly disagree with the first part of your comment there. However most of your points on the latter part I am in somewhat agreement with.

We already have a presence in the Afghani and Paki regions, thankfully, dipolomatically and militarily to some degree. Indonesia is the big wingnut that has the potential to fly off into a South Pacific-wde "'nother 'Nam" and we should tread lightly there.

We need better intelligence (no jokes please, seriously) and better diplomacy and better secretive strike teams and yes (a liberal thought!) a much better understanding of how we are viewed negatively, and what we can do to fix that and to understand others. So yes, a combination of diplomacy, communications, understanding and strike forces, not large military strikes, are the answer IMHO.




Last edited by Dravyk at Apr 2 2004, 08:55 PM

I bet it does, Mikey. You guys who have never walked it like they talk it and pay others to do their dirty work. Imagine if you ever had to lay your life on the line. Or as you say in America...put yourself in harms way. Please tell us about how you have ever risked your neck for your country. You talk large. Now impress us with your freekin courage and what you have ever done. Purple hearts go to the front of the line. This should be rich.

Edit: Please let me know if you think other people's kids lives are less valuable than yours. I have a feeling you do.[/b][/quote]


I would put myself on the line as fast as you do sport...

Envy is such a diffuclt thing to over come.

That was a very thoughtful response. I don't agree with all of it, but at least you are informed.

" Indonesia is the big wingnut that has the potential to fly off into a South Pacific-wde "'nother 'Nam" and we should tread lightly there."

America has no real influence in Asia any more. Asian countries pay tribute to China.
That is the challenge for America in the next 50 years. In a war of attrition with the PRC, the US loses. That is probably the biggest reason that America is not the most powerful country in the world. If they are, it will be short lived so what is the point of banging that drum?