For those who think the US needs to do it this way. I realize it's just one providence, but it does show that it's not as rosy as it's made out to be.

NO ONE in America is denied health care. Period. And most of those considered "middle class" who don't have health insurance spend that money elsewhere in the form of new cars, bigger homes, nicer electronics, etc.

Having a national health system, especially with the way the US government runs the other programs, would be a big mistake, IMHO. :(

Why then is socialised medicine so popular with the general public in those countries that have it, such as Canada and Australia?

I don't know about Australia, but when I worked for a Canadian company, every single person who could afford it had supplemental insurance. In addition, their tax rates were so much higher than ours that once you were making a decent amount of money, you could move to the US, make the same amount, and be able to afford top notch health insurance with tax savings.

In addition, those who used the national plan complained of delays. I know I can call my Dr. tomorrow and get an appointment w/in a day or so for a non-emergency visit. I know I can be seen immediately if it's an emergency. I know when I had a bleeding ulcer, I was treated within an hour at the hospital, even though it wasn't an emergency (or so they thought at the time.....).

Maybe those who like socialized medicine better don't know any different?

Or maybe, (shock, horror) it does actually work better than the alternatives.

Or maybe, (shock, horror) it does actually work better than the alternatives.[/b][/quote]
Again, maybe Australia's different, but if you look at the schools, social security, and most importantly, Medicaid and Medicare, it's quite clear to me that the US government will massively screw up national health care and I'd rather not sacrifice my health. :)

Personally, I couldn't care less if those who wanted the government to handle their health did so. They can be taxed higher rates, go to different doctors and hospitals, etc. But I want to be able to keep my private health insurance policy and pay for it myself and not pay higher tax rates for those dependent on the government. So far, I've not seen a plan that addresses this. :angry:

Again, maybe Australia's different, but if you look at the schools, social security, and most importantly, Medicaid and Medicare, it's quite clear to me that the US government will massively screw up national health care and I'd rather not sacrifice my health. :)

Personally, I couldn't care less if those who wanted the government to handle their health did so. They can be taxed higher rates, go to different doctors and hospitals, etc. But I want to be able to keep my private health insurance policy and pay for it myself and not pay higher tax rates for those dependent on the government. So far, I've not seen a plan that addresses this. :angry:[/b][/quote]
So what happens to all those in the U.S.A. without private health insurance if they need to go to the doctor or if they need hospital treatment?

Personnaly, I wouldn't want my Canadian health system to be any different. I am sure many wouldn't agree about it but I never knew any better than that so I wouldn't want to go for something else and may be deceived. I know that we wait a while in our hospitals, that we get appointments a few weeks later never the day after, but I like the fact that if I have a heart attack tomorow I won't pay 50 000$ in one shot out of my pocket. I love the fact that giving birth to my son at our best children hospital was free (at that time I couldn't have afford paying for it). My insurance plan covers some private care such as psychologist, private hospital room, chiropractician, physiotherapy etc. If something is urgent I'll use it otherwise I will use the public system and don't complain about it. There's also the fact that my insurance plan don't cost my family 300$ a month like many people down in the US do pay (or so I heard). What the governement takes off my paychecks doesn't feel that bad compare to dishing out a huge amount for every surgery that are required. And besides, even if it wasn't for that medicare I would still have to pay for taxes.

The most important about my health system is that everyone, rich or poor has access to it and can be treated and all the same way too! No preferences! :agrin:



Last edited by JulieJolie at Jan 27 2004, 02:55 PM

You are paying for your 'free health care' , no matter HOW you look at it.... your taxes are much higher than the US % wise.... The money to pay for the health care system has to come from some place.. it sure as hell aint out of the 'goodness' of the political system's heart.....

Yep. As in America, it's only those who don't make any money who get the TRUE "free" healthcare.....paid for by those who DO many money..... :(

They go to the doctor or hospital for medical treatment.

They go to the doctor or hospital for medical treatment.[/b][/quote]
Can you go and get treatment without handing over any money?

If so, are there any restrictions?

Yes, you can get treatment w/o handing over a dime. It is against the law to deny treatment because of lack of insurance or lack of funds.

Now, if you have to hand over money later is a different matter. If you're poor, then you're covered under Medicaid so you pay absurdly low co-pays ($2 a prescription, $2 office visit, etc) or you pay nothing. If you have money, then it's obvious you should have paid for health insurance in the first place, and you'll be billed.

Because Americans are becoming less and less personally responsible for anything, most who don't have insurance and don't qualify for Medicaid and have large bills just file bankruptcy on the bills, so they never pay them anyway.

Funny thing is, many of the people who "qualify" for Medicaid are driving nice cars, have wide screen TV's, gone on vacations, etc. It's just another example of a government system that's screwed up - much like national health care will be.

Right now I pay for private insurance. If national health care kicks in, I'll not only be paying for private insurance, but MY taxes will be raised to pay for those who want someone else to pay for them. As long as you don't make much money, it's a great deal. :(

Yes, you can get treatment w/o handing over a dime. It is against the law to deny treatment because of lack of insurance or lack of funds.

Now, if you have to hand over money later is a different matter. If you're poor, then you're covered under Medicaid so you pay absurdly low co-pays ($2 a prescription, $2 office visit, etc) or you pay nothing. If you have money, then it's obvious you should have paid for health insurance in the first place, and you'll be billed.

Because Americans are becoming less and less personally responsible for anything, most who don't have insurance and don't qualify for Medicaid and have large bills just file bankruptcy on the bills, so they never pay them anyway.

Funny thing is, many of the people who "qualify" for Medicaid are driving nice cars, have wide screen TV's, gone on vacations, etc. It's just another example of a government system that's screwed up - much like national health care will be.

Right now I pay for private insurance. If national health care kicks in, I'll not only be paying for private insurance, but MY taxes will be raised to pay for those who want someone else to pay for them. As long as you don't make much money, it's a great deal. :([/b][/quote]
Here in Australia everyone is entitled to a basic level of health care. However those who want more than basic care can get health insurance and many Australians, particularly those with families, do so.

To encourage people to take up private health insurance the government allows you to deduct 30% of the cost of private health insurance from your gross taxable income. This incentive helps to take some of the burden off the public system.

Overall, things work quite well. No system is perfect and this one is no exception but opinion poll after opinion poll shows that most Australians, left and right wing alike, want the current system to remain.

Just out of curiousity:

What is the income tax percentage on, say $100K salary a year?
What is the sales tax?
How much would a family pay for a $1000 deductible health insurance policy and what would it cover, i.e. does it just cover what the government doesn't or is it completely separate?

See that's mostly referring to Ontario. The system in Ontario is VERY fucked up, because the last Premier did a bang-up job putting the province so far into debt that it may never come back. Provinces like Alberta, which have essentially no deficit, are in a better position to pay their physicians more, and they are more likely to stay. Where I live there is a shortage of doctors and everyone feels the pinch, but in an emergency I have *NEVER EVER* been denied excellent health care. Sure I might have to wait an extra week or so for an appointment to see my MD, but I still can't complain, all in all.

The system CAN work, but like any system, it requires proper guidance to prosper.

But...what is your income tax rate? And isn't there like a 12% sales tax?

Just out of curiousity:

What is the income tax percentage on, say $100K salary a year?
What is the sales tax?
How much would a family pay for a $1000 deductible health insurance policy and what would it cover, i.e. does it just cover what the government doesn't or is it completely separate?[/b][/quote]
If you paid tax on the full $100,000 you would be taxed about $35,350.
An additional 1.5% medicare levy is also payable.

Sales tax in the form of a GST is a flat 10% on most items.

For information on private health insurance go here: http://www.medibankprivate.com.au/

But...what is your income tax rate? And isn't there like a 12% sales tax?[/b][/quote]
The tax here is something like 15% (GST and PST combined). As for tax, this might give you a better idea..
http://www.ccra-adrc.gc.ca/tax/individuals...003_rate-e.html
http://www.utoronto.ca/hrhome/tax2003.htm

Having a home-based business (An Alberta Incorporation which gives me phenomianal tax benifits) helps in a big way.

YIKES! Federal income tax for a single person here would be $28K on the full $100K, leaving plenty of difference to pay for damn good quality health care here in the states. :unsure:

Sales tax in GA is 3%. Counties and cities can add to that, but we live in one of the highest rated counties and it's 7% and there's no state sales tax on food and prescriptions.

Even WITHOUT including the extra cost of private insurance in Australia, based on someone making $100K a year, it would cost less to have private insurance coverage and pay whatever the plan didn't pay in the states than it would to get "free" coverage in Australia. Like I said, many in socialized medicine countries don't know any different. :(

YIKES! Federal income tax for a single person here would be $28K on the full $100K, leaving plenty of difference to pay for damn good quality health care here in the states. :unsure:[/b][/quote]
You make the assumption that Australian citizens do not see additional benefits in other areas from the extra tax that they pay.

Edit: Also, not very many Australians make over $100,000 a year.



Last edited by Joe Sixpack at Jan 27 2004, 06:59 PM

You make the asumption that Australian citizens do not see additional benefits in other areas from the extra tax that they pay.[/b][/quote]
True with Canada too..

Can you go and get treatment without handing over any money?

If so, are there any restrictions?[/b][/quote]
Why the hell do you think the illegals flock here? Liberals are:
(1) just plain stupid
or
(2) just plain dishonest

Why the hell do you think the illegals flock here? Liberals are:
(1) just plain stupid
or
(2) just plain dishonest[/b][/quote]
Hey dickhead, I am not American. What can you tell me about Australia's system of public health?

By the way, illegals flock to my country as well. What does that have to do with the subject under discussion?



Last edited by Joe Sixpack at Jan 27 2004, 07:04 PM

Then educate me! What else would someone who makes $100K a year in AUS get for that extra $8K a year in income taxes and the additional 5%+ in sales tax that an American doesn't get here? I'm seriously asking - not trying to be a smartass. :)

And the $100K I'm using because it's a round number and I work better with those. :awinky:

Try to follow along - he was answering YOUR question, i.e. the illegal flock here because they can get "free" health care. Of course, it's NOT free, tax payers cover it. :angry: But that's how the government handles it.....Maybe NOW you understand why we don't want the government taking care of our health? :unsure:

Then educate me! What else would someone who makes $100K a year in AUS get for that extra $8K a year in income taxes and the additional 5%+ in sales tax that an American doesn't get here? I'm seriously asking - not trying to be a smartass. :)

And the $100K I'm using because it's a round number and I work better with those. :awinky:[/b][/quote]
Less than 5% of people make $100,000 a year. On lower incomes you would find the difference to be much less.

How much tax do you pay in the USA on $20,000 a year?



Last edited by Joe Sixpack at Jan 27 2004, 07:15 PM

Try to follow along - he was answering YOUR question, i.e. the illegal flock here because they can get "free" health care. Of course, it's NOT free, tax payers cover it. :angry: But that's how the government handles it.....Maybe NOW you understand why we don't want the government taking care of our health? :unsure:[/b][/quote]
Why did he assume that I would know anything about your governments policy on medical care for illegal immigrants?

Does he know anything about ours?

$4150 on $20K a year - and I was actually incorrect on the $100K- that person would actually pay $22,746, not $28K. :)

And your 10% sales tax doesn't go up and down depending on your income, does it? :unsure:

He assumed you DIDN'T know, which is WHY he answered your question. Geeze. :unsure:

He assumed you DIDN'T know, which is WHY he answered your question. Geeze. :unsure:[/b][/quote]
Then why did he say I was either:

1) Stupid or:
2) Dishonest

$4150 on $20K a year - and I was actually incorrect on the $100K- that person would actually pay $22,746, not $28K. :)

And your 10% sales tax doesn't go up and down depending on your income, does it? :unsure:[/b][/quote]
You see, here in Australia the income tax payable on $20,000 is $2380.

And no, the GST is a flat 10%. It doesn't change.

I lied (I actually subtracted $7K from $20K and got $23K..... :( ), the taxes on $20K would be $2650. But understand that's the Adjusted Gross Income - this person would, in reality, be making closer to $25K+ in order to have an AGI of $20K, which is what these tax amounts are counted on.

Open-heart surgery in the States costs in the neighborhood of $200k and up. Here you get it free, and if it's am emergency procedure it gets done immediately, if not you get booked in, waiting times vary from place to place.

Is it really "free"? No, it's built into our taxes of course, but we don't have to fork out a couple of hundred K for a hospital stay every time we get a major medical situation in the family. And don't try to deny it, I've known way too many Amercans that have cried the blues over their HUGE medical bills, several of them webmasters.

That's the rated tax on someone making $20k.
In reality though, through tax credits and such, most likely they'd pay nothing.
Americans get $1k per child tax credit, a credit if you're married filing jointly, tax breaks if you own a house, blah blah blah.

Most webmasters don't bother to take part of their income and set it aside for insurance or emergencies.
Hell many of them don't set aside money for taxes, either.

I was under the impression that the general tax rate in Canada was 50%?
Like if you made $100k, you'd actually bring home $50k.

Exactly. For instance, if I had $200K worth of surgery, my bill would be my $1000 deductible, then $2500 out of pocket. Period. At 42, I pay $282 a month for this. BTW, I make that $282 back almost immediately since I pay $25 each for 2 packs of Imitrex a month which are normally $165 each. :)

These webmasters who complain about large medical bills aren't capable of managing their money correctly. Even when I was a VERY struggling single mother, I still bought catastrophic health insurance for me and the kid. For most of these young male webmasters, that would run them less than $70 a month. But then they couldn't go to Vegas, get the new Ricer modified, go out partying every other night, etc., etc., etc.

The MAIN problem with the health care situation in America is that those of us who DO have insurance and pay our taxes are paying for those that don't. If national health care gets implemented, all that will happen is lower services and higher taxes. But hey, if you're not paying taxes anyway, what's the worry? :angry:

Of course I pay for my "free health care" it's obvious but I would still dish out a good amount of money in taxes so taking a few more bucks for seeing a doctor for free whenever I am or my family is sick is a great deal!

Taxes pourcentage goes accordingly with your wage, situation etc. If you are a single guy, big salary you pay 25% of your salary in taxes. A family with kids pays between 20-30% (on 2 income), a single mother pays 12% but still gets child benefits. The amount of taxes that is paid monthly in my household is low enough. I always ask for the maximum being take off my pay checks, as if I was a single guy so at the end of the year, usually, I get around 1-2K back. So at the end, giving roughly the same amount for an insurance plan or giving it to the governement. At least I know when I need money because I'm sick I won't have to go through the process of asking the insurance, them making sure all is fine and maybe denying me from it...

I still say that it's important that everyone gets the right to the same surgery, same cares, poor or rich. That's why I don't believe in having a care system where it would be different according to the luck you have in life... I'm still traumatised by a movie I've seen that happened in the US, the guy had a heart attack, company didn't give him and insurance plan, he made a minimum wage, he had a heart attack and the whole family ended up in the street.
:cryin:

I have lived both with and without a national health service and I would now never want to be without one. Yes, there are problems and no it is not free. It is free at the point of delivery. I won't pretend to know how we differ from Canada but I know for a fact that just the appointments my husband has had to have this year would have put me in a horrible financial position without the NHS. Not to mention what has been done for me.

First Off - I do not believe in Socialized anything, but there are certainly a lot of problems with the US healthcare system.

The last time I was in the hospital the bills after insurance were in excess of 4 grand, fortunately I am far from poverty stricken, but stick that bill to the average 2 job working American family raising 2 kids and there goes Christmas.

Watching my Grandmother pay 50% of her retirement income for perscription drugs, or sitting in the Valley Hospital ER watching not one, but 2 elderly people moaning in sever pain, not even getting a place to lie down until their insurance coverage in verified (we are talking about a town where the average house is 750 grand) don't even think that the level of care is the same for insured versus non insured people.

Watching Schering Plough sell Claritin at 6 dollars a pill in the US and 6 dollars a Box in Canada (making profit in both places)

At the same time research into AIDS, cancer, etc is next to nothing because it is not profitable but the drug companies are hard at work making pills to make your dick stay hard, grow your hair back, melt the fat off of us, and make us not fart after we eat too much broccoli.

As for taxes, we in the US pay one hell of a lot more than we think we do, the hidden taxes in the shit that we buy probably comes close to what we see them steal from us, might be more if you are a big consumer.

Funny part is most of the problems with the health care in the US was caused by insurance companies and lawyers. Doctors have to charge 250 an hour since they are paying insane malpractice rates, an OB in NJ pays 100 grand a year for malpractice because when some crack whore gives birth to a 3 eyed baby it is somehow the Doctors fault and some panel of people too stupid to be able to get off jury duty is going to award 5 million.

I have to pay full price for my prerscriptions on the NHS because I don't claim any sort of gov't aid (being over a certain age or disabled, etc) that would exempt me from having to pay. I was told it was going to be a very high price. Turned out to be £6.20 a prerscription.

I have to pay full price for my prerscriptions on the NHS because I don't claim any sort of gov't aid (being over a certain age or disabled, etc) that would exempt me from having to pay. I was told it was going to be a very high price. Turned out to be £6.20 a prerscription.[/b][/quote]
From what I read about the Australian system, prescriptions are also not covered there.

Yes, Lawyers have caused many of the problems with rising costs, doctors retiring, etc. My Mom is a midwife and the number of OB's leaving their practices due to massive malpractice insurance rates is frightening. There needs to be some sort of reform in this.

However, the "free" health care that many get in the US is also to blame. If it cost a hospital $200K for each heart surgery and if 1/3 the people don't pay (I'm basing this on an article I saw where 62% of all visits to the doctors office are by those who have no insurance and the liberals saying 45% of those in the US aren't covered by insurance and I'm giving credit for those who pay for it personally), then where do you think that money comes from to cover those who DON'T PAY? Here's a hint - the hospitals are NOT printing money in the back room. :(

If those who COULD afford insurance would get it, there would be a HUGE decrease in costs for those of us who pay our bills. Right now, insurance is paying out higher and higher amounts to compensate for those who don't have insurance (and don't pay) and again, since they don't print money either, they pass that $$ off to those who have insurance. Almost every single person I've talked to who doesn't have health insurance in the US (and isn't qualified for Medicaid) HAS the money to pay for insurance if they would not eat out every night, buy new cars, new TV's, etc., but since they KNOW they can get the care for free, there's no incentive for them to be responsible.

If you compare not having health insurance in the US to having "free" socialized medicine, then of course it's great. :unsure: But those of us who ARE responsible and pay our OWN insurance and/or medical bills have no desire to pay higher taxes, deal with the waits and possibly substandard care. And Hitlary's health care plan proposal several years ago would have made it illegal to go outside the national plan. :angry:

BTW, I read an article (and I can dig up the link if needed) that said 72% of Australians said the health care there needed a major reform.

good thing we have a family witch doctor. we just give him two live chickens and a bottle of bourbon and he is happy.

Who said I was happy? you have the gall to referr to this half-empty bottle of Early Times as "bourbon"?

From now on I'll only accept Makers Mark.

But the chicken was yummy! :okthumb:

My brother-in-law used to live in Toronto...he's dead, now. When it became apparent that he would never again be paying taxes, they stopped his chemo and let him die. Of course, the fact that he was Jamaican probably had some bearing on it, also.

There was an old pediatrician in Alpharetta - in fact, she may still be practicing - she was a couple of years ago at 102. She used to take chickens, eggs, produce, baked goods, artwork, etc. in exchange for medical care. :okthumb: Neat lady.

yes, i am sure there was a direct Revenue Canada communications link to the nurses station in the hospital. makes you wonder who else they decide to kill on a whim.

like i always say "pay your taxes or the government will kill you if you are a guy from an island someplace"

:rolleyes:

I think I just found proof of this.

http://www.datapush.net/pics/kill_jamaicans.jpg

There is one group of Americans that we seem to be forgetting...
those who can afford Insurance, however are uninsurable...
I am in that position...
No insurance company in the country will cover me due to my back...
I would very much like to pay for insurance... instead of paying for entire surgeries, emergency's (broken bones and visits to ER) straight out of my pocket... There are many people in this country in the same position as I am... To buffer against a serious illness, I have to maintain a seperate balance in the bank just for such emergencies.. It's a Real Pain in the ass...
not only would I be out of work... I would have to pay for any doctor, hospital bills as well...

As a nurse in the real world, I find this a very hard pill to swallow....

First off, let me say on the board:
Happy Birthday, Pattyecake!!

Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread.... :awinky:

Here in GA there's a pool you can join if you're otherwise uninsurable. The state administers the insurance, not an insurance company, per se. My aunt has had arthitis since she was 17 and is basically crippled. My uncle had her on his Delta Air Lines policy even after the divorce until she forgot to send in the yearly paperwork. :unsure: She's able to get a policy from the state. It's not a GREAT policy, but it's there. :) Move to GA, PC! :)

This point alone is what makes me leary of the government getting their hands on things! :zoinks: You couldn't be more right - they've screwed up everything else, why let them screw up more?

PC brings up a good point too though... there are MANY uninsurables out there without ANY health care... my grandma's neighbor is in the same situation.

And in addition to those who can't GET insured there are those who worked hard for years, retired and then were "set up" with retirement insurance to cover them in their so-called Golden Years.... my dad is 65 and his retirement insurance rate just went up to $895/month to cover him & my mom. They had to go with an HMO through his current job (yup... 25 years on a police department doesn't pay enough to ever "really" retire... he still works 40 hours/week to make ends meet) where they are still paying $280/month for a less-than-adequate health care through Blue Cross.

How is anyone supposed to EVER be able to afford to retire, afford quality insurance AND pay the bills? They though they had their retirement years taken care of... instead, he'll never be able to truly retire. If anything - God forbid - were to happen to him, I don't know what my mom would do - there's insurance for that too, but will it be enough? How can you prepare for retirement 30 some years in the future without a crystal ball to know how things are really going to turn out?