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Did Jesus Christ actually exist or is he purely a mythical figure?

Can anyone point me to any text, specifically secular histories of the time, that make an authentic reference to Jesus Christ or the events of his supposed life?

Or is the christian Bible the only book that mentions him?

Every time I look at you
I don't understand
Why you let the things you did
Get so out of hand
You'd have managed better
If you'd had it planned
Now why'd you choose such a backward time
And such a strange land?

If you'd come today
You could have reached the whole nation
Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication

Tell me what you think
About your friends at the top
Now who d'you think besides yourself
Was the pick of the crop?
Buddah was he where it's at?
Is he where you are?
Could Muhammmed move a mountain
Or was that just PR?
Did you mean to die like that?
Was that a mistake or
Did you know your messy death
Would be a record breaker?

JC existed.

Now if he was son go God, that is definately up to debate.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jan 21 2004, 08:44 PM
JC existed.

Now if he was son go God, that is definately up to debate.

How do you know?

Can you supply me with a reference to him outside of the Bible?

Jesus lived, and even Islam and several other religions knew he lived and recognize him as a gifted prophet and teacher, if not the son of god. I'm sure he did exist too but it's pretty easy for people to turn a person into a divinity. Look at Egypt, Rome, and many other countries that characterized their rulers as divine.

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack+Jan 21 2004, 11:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Joe Sixpack @ Jan 21 2004, 11:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Mike AI@Jan 21 2004, 08:44 PM
JC existed.

Now if he was son go God, that is definately up to debate.

How do you know?

Can you supply me with a reference to him outside of the Bible?[/b][/quote]
Yes, and when I get a chance I will look it up.

Apparently there were a lot of regligious type texts that never made it into the Bible. A whole collection was found not to long ago, called the Dead Sea Scrolls. I am sure you have heard of it.... type it into google, you might find all kinds of info on it.

Off hand I remember reading about a text that describes Mary and Joseph, and their other kids - Jesus' brothers and sisters. It was interesting to see how some regligious leaders tried to explain it away back in the day... since the Catholic Church maintained Mary was a virgin and stayed one.

They basicly said all the kids were Josephs from a previous marriage.... I think even a few books in the Bible - either Matthew, or Mark mentioned Jesus' brother.

Remember the New Testament while a bunch of stories for lessons, is part History book. We know that the deciples were real, and some of their tombs have been found.

Who has seen the movie The Order?
It's pretty cool, gives you a new idea on what Jesus was, and the whole thing about "he died to take away your sins"... well... whoever made this movie spent a lot of time thinking about the meaning behind that. It's pretty cool.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike AI+Jan 21 2004, 08:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike AI @ Jan 21 2004, 08:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Quote:

Originally posted by -Joe Sixpack@Jan 21 2004, 11:46 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Mike AI

Quote:

@Jan 21 2004, 08:44 PM
JC existed.

Now if he was son go God, that is definately up to debate.

How do you know?

Can you supply me with a reference to him outside of the Bible?

Yes, and when I get a chance I will look it up.

Apparently there were a lot of regligious type texts that never made it into the Bible. A whole collection was found not to long ago, called the Dead Sea Scrolls. I am sure you have heard of it.... type it into google, you might find all kinds of info on it.[/b][/quote]
I am mainly talking about secular references. There were Roman historians... surely someone as controversial as Jesus would rate a mention.

Wow. Never done this search before. Joe, check it out:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navc...rences+to+jesus

Some interesting looking stuff there *goes back to browse*

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack+Jan 22 2004, 12:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Joe Sixpack @ Jan 22 2004, 12:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Quote:

Originally posted by -Mike AI@Jan 21 2004, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by -Joe Sixpack@Jan 21 2004, 11:46 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--Mike AI

Quote:

Quote:

@Jan 21 2004, 08:44 PM
JC existed.

Now if he was son go God, that is definately up to debate.

How do you know?

Can you supply me with a reference to him outside of the Bible?

I am mainly talking about secular references. There were Roman historians... surely someone as controversial as Jesus would rate a mention.[/b][/quote]

You are the kid who never did his own homework huh?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...shows/religion/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...y/perpetua.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/sco...ser/hojfaq.html

I could go on and on.....

This entire forum seems to be dedicated to debating whether things are true or not www.investigatemagazine.com

Check out this post about the great flood I found there
http://www.investigatemagazine.com/_IDdisc...c2/0000012a.htm

Quote:

Skeptics have tended to focus on several points they believe show the flood story is bogus: chief among them, where did all the water come from and how could Noah have collected all the animals and saved them?

To tackle the water question first, there are some scholars who interpret the ancient Hebrew to mean that the Flood was localised, that it affected the known world at the time, which was the Middle East-Mediterranean area.

There is certainly scientific and archaeological evidence of major cataclysmic events in the past in that area that do substantiate the possibility of a regional flood. In fact the man who discovered the wreck of the Titanic has led a National Geographic expedition and found entire villages hundreds of feet underwater on the bottom of the Black Sea. National Geographic magazine has itself postulated that this could be related to Noah’s flood.

Then there’s the Mediterranean Sea. We know that at some point in the past ten thousand years, the Atlantic ocean broke its banks at Gibraltar and poured into the ancient valley system that we now know as the Mediterranean. We also know, courtesy of archaeology and more recently the movie The English Patient, that ancient caves deep in the Sahara Desert contain cave paintings of people desperately swimming.

So there’s plenty of supporting evidence for the theory of a massive regional flood in the area.

But that isn’t the only possibility.

Quite apart from the Bible, stories of a massive flood, and a hero who built a boat and saved the human race, can be found in cultures right around the world. Not only are similar stories told by the Babylonians, the Sumerians and the Greeks, but the Hindu people in India have a similar legend starring a man named Manu, rather than Noah.

To the Chinese, he is Fah-he, and to the Aztecs and other Indian tribes of Mexico he is known by a range of names, the easiest to pronounce being Tezpi.

Likewise the American Indian tribes record a flood that covered the world and a hero with a boat, Manabozho, while closer to our part of the world Noah is remembered as Nu-u to the Hawaiian Maori people...and of course New Zealand has the story of Maui fishing the land up out of the sea.

Yeah but, I hear some people saying...every culture has probably experienced seasonal floods and that’s where these legends are traced from.

Not so fast. Let me read you this summary of the Mexican legends.

"The most important among the American traditions are the Mexican, for they appear to have been definitively fixed by symbolic and mnemonic paintings before any contact with Europeans. According to these documents, the Noah of the Mexican cataclysm was Coxcox, called by certain peoples Teocipactli or Tezpi. He had saved himself, together with his wife Xochiquetzal, in a bark, or, according to other traditions, on a raft made of cypress-wood (Cupressus disticha). Paintings retracing the deluge of Coxcox have been discovered among the Aztecs, Miztecs, Zapotecs, Tlascaltecs, and Mechoacaneses. The tradition of the latter is still more strikingly in conformity with the story as we have it in Genesis, and in Chaldean sources. It tells how Tezpi embarked in a spacious vessel with his wife, his children, and several animals, and grain, whose preservation was essential to the subsistence of the human race. When the great god Tezcatlipoca decreed that the waters should retire, Tezpi sent a vulture from the bark. The bird, feeding on the carcasses with which the earth was laden, did not return. Tezpi sent out other birds, of which the humming-bird only came back with a leafy branch in its beak. Then Tezpi, seeing that the country began to vegetate, left his bark on the mountain of Colhuacan.”

If you want to read some of these ancient flood stories from other cultures yourself, simply enter the words Noah and Tezpi into the google search engine on the internet.

Don’t even get me started on the lost civilisation of Atlantis, which is another piece in the flood legend jigsaw.

Some geologists do argue that there is evidence of a worldwide flood, and point to massive volcanic and seismic changes during the Cenozoic era as evidence of tectonic movement caused by the weight of the water involved.

Which brings me to the question of where did all the water come from? Firstly, if you’re dealing with a supernatural God who created the universe in literally a split second...snapping his fingers again to flood the planet is a much smaller issue.

In Genesis, chapter seven says God did two things...first...he made it rain for forty days non stop. But it also says he opened the floodgates of the great springs of the deep oceans. That reference alone is surprising, because scientists have only confirmed in the last hundred years that the oceans are indeed fed by “great springs of the deep”. Another example there of the Bible being 3000 years ahead of science.

To flood the entire planet, enough water had to be produced to cover the top of Mt Everest, which is a little under six miles high. It sounds like a lot of water, and it is, but think on this for a moment. The Earth is actually eight thousand miles in diameter, so raising the oceans to a total depth of twelve miles is still very minor in comparison with the overall volume and capacity of the earth...it’s akin to having water only half a centimetre deep in the bottom of your bath...and doubling it to one centimeter deep. Big deal.

To my way of thinking, ignoring all the similar Noah’s flood stories from around the world, as the skeptics try to do, is virtually burying your head in the sand in denial. If no major Flood ever happened, why of dozens of cultures have stories about it...and a Noah-like character with a boat and animals.

Ok, now for the second part of the listener’s question...how could Noah save all the animals and are we really to believe the kiwi migrated to NZ from the mountains of Turkey?

Scientists have estimated, based on the measurements in the Bible, that Noah’s Ark had a storage capacity equivalent to a train hauling two thousand cattle wagons...each wagon capable of carrying 20 cows or up to 100 sheep. So in rough terms, the Ark could hold 40,000 cows or 200,000 sheep.

At the present time, there are only 290 species of land animal larger than a sheep. There are a further 757 animal species ranging in size from a sheep down to a rat, and nearly 1400 different species smaller than rats. Even with two of each species, you’re only talking 5000 animals all up...well below the Ark’s carrying capacity of 40,000 cows or 100,000 sheep, and with plenty of room for food.

What happens if some of the animals died on the voyage? Silly question really. The whole idea was God’s. For the same reason, why didn’t the Ark sink? It is also entirely conceivable that any creatures Noah and the team missed would be accounted for by God regardless. Did the Australian kangaroo live near Iraq in order to hitch a ride with Noah. I personally don’t know, but I can tell you fossil marsupials have now been found as far apart as China and the America’s, so perhaps they did. Ultimately we just don’t know, but “not knowing” is not the same as proving something wrong.

As for the kiwi migrating to NZ...remember that New Zealand was at an earlier time in history part of Gondwanaland, which joined us to Turkey, Europe, Africa, the Middle East and North & South America and India...all lands where Flood stories can be found. We don’t truly know why the biggest landmass the world has ever known broke up and flew apart...scattering itself across half the globe.

More to the point...although we make educated guesses...we don’t truly know when these major events in world history took place, or how long they took to happen once it began. If we eventually discover that humans were alive during the time of the Gondwanaland supercontinent, that would turn science on its ear.

No one has ever proven the Bible story of the Flood to be wrong, and given the enormous weight of circumstantial evidence supporting it...I’m more than happy to accept Noah’s Flood as a reality...even if four or five thousand years later we can only guess at the exact details of what took place.

And there’s nothing wrong with giving the Bible the benefit of the doubt. What would you prefer to trust if your eternal salvation hinged on it? The book that claims to be the word of God and has never been proven to contain error...or the opinion of a man in a white coat who doesn’t believe in God because his parents forced him to sing in the church choir as a child and he still nurses a grudge...in fact, it’s the real reason he became a scientist...his personal rebellion against the idea of God.

I know which source I’d be more inclined to believe.

And that quote is from the 25th of last month (xmas day), so the discussion is pretty active (unlike most forums you find in google).
Edit: PS the title of this forum post is "Did the Kiwi migrate from Mt Ararat?" if you want to go dig it up yourself.

Last edited by Carrie at Jan 22 2004, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike AI@Jan 22 2004, 01:13 AM
You are the kid who never did his own homework huh?

He and aeon both! Reading their posts make you think there's not a Google. :P

On this page the writer quotes 5 other (non-biblical) texts that make reference to Jesus:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/9...BiblicalRef.htm

I find this whole thing fascinating :)

Hmmmmm... you people should look more closely at the links you dig up.

I have been going through them and I am still yet to find a contemporaneous secular reference to Jesus that is not undisputed or considered an interpolation.

Keep trying.

Quote:

Originally posted by Carrie@Jan 21 2004, 09:33 PM
On this page the writer quotes 5 other (non-biblical) texts that make reference to Jesus:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/9...BiblicalRef.htm

I find this whole thing fascinating :)

Reference #1: Refers to "Christus" and was written 60 years after Jesus' supposed crucifiction.

Reference #2: Was written over a century after Jesus supposed crucifiction.

Reference #3: Refers to "Chrestus" and was written 120 years after jesus supposed crucifiction.

Reference #4: Mentions an allusion to Christ. No quote included. 200 years after Jesus' supposed crucifiction.

Reference #5: Highly disputed. Josephus was born 37 years after Jesus' crucifiction.

I'm not even going to go into the fact its on Geocities. :o

You wouldn't make much of a scholar!

Sid Vicious died for my sins

Jesus, I am overjoyed to meet you face to face.
You've been getting quite a name all around the place.
Healing criples. Raising from the dead.
And now I understand you're God?
At least, that's what you've said.

So, you are the Christ, you're the great Jesus Christ.
Prove to me that you're devine; change my water into wine.
That's all you need do, and I'll know it's all true.
Come on, King of the Jews.

Joe if you want undisputed I think you need to take a look around, lol.
You can never get 10 people to agree on anything!

Right now, for example. We've got a little vehicle on Mars. Cool 'nuff. It's sending back pictures. Double cool.
But wait a minute... the color in these pictures is off. The most pressing evidence of this is the color wheel itself welded onto the side of the vehicle to provide accurate color representation which to base the photos against.
The photos have been so oversaturated and color-corrected with red that the color wheel itself is screwed up!

Compare the pictures sent back from Mars with the pictures of the module just before it launched. You can clearly see the difference in the color wheel. Before launch, without color correction, all of the colors are true and in their proper spots.
But in the phots coming back from Mars, the colors are all skewed so badly that blues are coming out as reds!

But can you get folks to agree that someone is tampering with the color corrections? Nope...

Add to it that back in the 70's when the first little module went up to Mars, noted authors, scientists, and high-achieving high school students (interns really) were invited over to Nasa to take part. Carl Sagan himself writes about the first image showing up line by line, a huge hush over the crowd, and then a roar of elated joy as the picture was revealed and the expansive BLUE sky of Mars shone before them. And then his anger and confusion over why the same picture that was released to the paper showed a RED sky.
A high school student (at the time) tells of watching technicians skirting around the viewing room turning up the color on all of the television monitors so that everything literally glowed red and the Martian sky no longer appeared blue. Confused about this, the student went around and turned all of the settings back to where they were supposed to be... and summarily was called into an office with his overseeing teacher and a few Nasa officials and was told if he changed the colors back to normal again, he'd be escorted off of the property and not invited back.

With this, even today, there is proof. Is it disputed? Hell yeah... there will always be detractors on both sides of an issue and certainly folks with an agenda or a career to worry about. You could look up at the sky tomorrow morning and declare "the sky is blue" and someone to your left will say "no it's not, it's teal" while a color-blind person will say "that's blue? It looks green to me"...
The key is keeping your mind open to possibilities and not shutting down simply because it's something that you don't WANT to hear/read/see.

Personally I think there are dozens, if not hundreds, of documents regarding Jesus and God and all sorts of other things that only a few "exalted" eyes ever get to see; stored in the catacombs of the Vatican. Goodness knows that the assembly there makes judgements on what it feels "the people" are "ready" to see and know, and they have a vested interest in hiding anything that would even hint at shaking the foundation of Christianity - and for a long, long time, they had the power and the reach to find these documents (and even the people who wrote them) and make them just "disappear".
Does that make me a detractor? Yeah. Does it make me a non-Christian? Yes, to some. Do I give a good shit? Nope.

I look at it this way... it doesn't hurt to keep an open mind. I'll learn some really cool things along the way. And if there *is* a God, I'm definitely sure that when it comes my time to meet him, he won't mind me using my power of free will to ask questions and explore everything I possibly could have. I don't even think He will mind me calling him by other names. Surely someone(?) who came up with this screwy human race has to have a sense of humor, at least.

And if it's all wrong and we just fade off into the blackness when it's all over, well then, it still did me no harm to question and learn, did it? Learning is never a waste of time and everyone enjoys a good story. :)

More and more, I think I'm becoming Agnostic!

Dave
www.davecummings.com

Quote:

Originally posted by Vick@Jan 21 2004, 10:07 PM
Sid Vicious died for my sins

lol, your posts are alway classic. :matey:

I'm a firm believer that Jesus was a time traveller.
His resurrection and shit, he just went back again.

I also have intresting theories on the universe, but I don't have time to write 'em up.

Quote:

Originally posted by TeenGodFather@Jan 22 2004, 12:46 AM
I'm a firm believer that Jesus was a time traveller.
His resurrection and shit, he just went back again.

I also have intresting theories on the universe, but I don't have time to write 'em up.

You really should have eaten those mushrooms, man!

:yowsa:

Quote:

does TeenGodFather really exist?
hmm....

Could this be the oldest evidence of Jesus?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_ea...ast/2349325.stm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolo@Jan 22 2004, 03:12 AM
Could this be the oldest evidence of Jesus?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_ea...ast/2349325.stm

Probably not.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/22/...ain564544.shtml

Quote:

Originally posted by Rolo@Jan 22 2004, 06:12 AM
Could this be the oldest evidence of Jesus?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_ea...ast/2349325.stm

Very cool find!

So.. what if Jesus existed?
There very well could have been a I am a MORON, called Jesus and he was a good man and crap, but no son of god. There has to be some foundation to the story.

Quote:

You could look up at the sky tomorrow morning and declare "the sky is blue" and someone to your left will say "no it's not, it's teal" while a color-blind person will say "that's blue? It looks green to me"...

Carrie as a photographer, you know as well as I do that the sky is cyan... :P

Quote:

Originally posted by TeenGodFather@Jan 22 2004, 03:35 AM
So.. what if Jesus existed?
There very well could have been a I am a MORON, called Jesus and he was a good man and crap, but no son of god. There has to be some foundation to the story.

i bet he never got into one of those "my dad can beat your dads ass" type of arguements.

Quote:

Originally posted by JR@Jan 22 2004, 04:27 AM
i bet he never got into one of those "my dad can beat your dads ass" type of arguements.

If he did. I would have betted my money on his daddy.

Quote:

Quote:

@Jan 21 2004, 08:44 PM
JC existed.

Now if he was son go God, that is definately up to debate.

How do you know?

Can you supply me with a reference to him outside of the Bible?

I am mainly talking about secular references. There were Roman historians... surely someone as controversial as Jesus would rate a mention.[/b][/quote]
Joseph Flavius, Roman historian who LIVED at the same time Jesus supposedly lived and NOT 300 years later when New Testament was written, has NO REFERENCES to Jesus....

It's a nice story, but...it's ONLY a story

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack+Jan 22 2004, 05:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Joe Sixpack @ Jan 22 2004, 05:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--TeenGodFather@Jan 22 2004, 12:46 AM
I'm a firm believer that Jesus was a time traveller.
His resurrection and shit, he just went back again.

I also have intresting theories on the universe, but I don't have time to write 'em up.

You really should have eaten those mushrooms, man!

:yowsa:[/b][/quote]
:okthumb:

Jesus, shmisus...I presonally much more intererested in his brother Steve....
;-)))

imagine him introdusing himself..
Hello, My name is Steve Christ!

THAT would be cool!
;-)))

(thread hijack)

Cleo - it was great seeing you and Luna in Vegas! You're both looking fab-u-lous! :)

Quote:

Originally posted by Peaches@Jan 22 2004, 09:03 AM
(thread hijack)

Cleo - it was great seeing you and Luna in Vegas! You're both looking fab-u-lous! :)

It was great seeing you too, just wish I wasn't so fucking tired by the time we got to GameWorks as we ended up leaving and going to sleep.

Actually I missed so many people that it is sad. Personally I like the Florida show a whole lot more as I find it much better for doing business and a whole lot easier to find people. Seems like I spent most of the show trying to find people most of who I never did find. :(

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleo@Jan 22 2004, 10:14 AM
Seems like I spent most of the show trying to find people most of who I never did find. :(

Ditto. :(

Jesus spoke to me once. Something about there being an after life.

It was very real.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cleo@Jan 22 2004, 08:58 AM
See this thread for my thoughts on JC
http://www.greenguyandjim.com/board/showth...=&threadid=4085

You made us follow a link just to see that you stated "Wake me up when something interesting is posted" ??

You do realize, don't you, that simply typing that again would've been less work than typing the "see my comments" line and link? :)

I heard the same thing about Socrates being a figment of Plato's creative imagination. Who really cares, a mechanism is a mechanism, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain; just toss your money in and pass the plate.

Last time I was in church, I made change from a twenty and walked with $40.00, great conversion...don't frown, would you rather I shaved webmasters?

Quote:

Originally posted by PeerPatrick@Jan 22 2004, 06:08 PM
I heard the same thing about Socrates being a figment of Plato's creative imagination. Who really cares, a mechanism is a mechanism, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain; just toss your money in and pass the plate.

Last time I was in church, I made change from a twenty and walked with $40.00, great conversion...don't frown, would you rather I shaved webmasters?

music to my ears lol!!! :-))))

I just spoke to Jesus and he said he didn't exist and imagining that he was talking to me , was psyhcotic episode.

;-))))

How come if G-d speaks to you can become a TV Star, politician , or athlete , but if you hear voices telling you "all women are dirty ,and you must kill them and cut off there nipples serve them on lightly buttered toast " the men in white coats drag you away ?

;-))))

Quote:

Originally posted by Nickatilynx@Jan 22 2004, 09:39 PM
lightly buttered toast

What's up with the lightly buttered toast?

Thought you might go the Krispy Kreme's route

:devil:

Quote:

Originally posted by Vick+Jan 22 2004, 06:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Vick @ Jan 22 2004, 06:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Nickatilynx@Jan 22 2004, 09:39 PM
lightly buttered toast

What's up with the lightly buttered toast?

Thought you might go the Krispy Kreme's route

:devil:[/b][/quote]
Vick,

I thought you'd know that grilled nipples are best with toast , maybe some stilton and a good port :)

It's a nice story, but...it's ONLY a story[/quote]

...it's actually not that nice of a story, in reality it wasn't very coherent or inspiring, doesn't translate very well into modern times.

just think if we swapped JC for Bruce Lee; then that would have been the shit. BL dropping a solid asskicking on all those slackjawed pukes.

since the "son of god" thing is a bit far fetched, even for a teen coming of age movie, maybe we could make god, Bruce Lee's karate master who was killed and BL came back to avenge his untimely demise. that would make for a more believable story and validate mr. nietzsche claim as well.

Quote:

Originally posted by davecummings@Jan 22 2004, 01:16 AM
More and more, I think I'm becoming Agnostic!

Dave
www.davecummings.com

Shucks! I AM one! :agrin:

i am surprised that no one has the balls to just ask R_n.

Quote:

Originally posted by JR@Jan 23 2004, 11:29 AM
i am surprised that no one has the balls to just ask R_n.

HAHA

I don't need ANOTHER C&D!!!

All of us are Sons of God.
JC is a collective image. Told by prophets and edited by late Christians