"A date that will live in infamy" (FDR)

"I fear that we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve." (Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto)

:cryin: :grrr: :salute:

Fuck FDR.

his gold taking was the exact as stalin taking the farms.

http://www.pbs.org/childofcamp/history/index.html


"Executive Order 9066 was justified as a "military necessity" to protect against domestic espionage and sabotage. However, it was later documented that "our government had in its possession proof that not one Japanese American, citizen or not, had engaged in espionage, not one had committed any act of sabotage." (Michi Weglyn, 1976).

Rather, the causes for this unprecedented action in American history, according to the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians, "were motivated largely by racial prejudice, wartime hysteria, and a failure of political leadership."



Last edited by JR at Dec 6 2003, 10:02 PM

If you're going to hate FDR's war time actions, hate him for the big one...

INCOME TAX WITHHOLDING

That was put in place supposedly only until the end of the war. Instead now we have two full generations, soon to be three, who have no idea what they really make and how much they pay in taxes.

Can you imagine the reaction if all the guys who make say $30K-ish all had to mail a check to uncle sam for $10K on April 15th?

As is, most are so stupid they have no idea they actually pay that much in taxes. Ask 'em how much they paid in taxes last year and many of them will boast, "nothing! i got some back!"

verry sad day in history

:( :salute:

Well, I didn't think I was starting a thread on FDR... Thought I was recognizing a horrible day in our country's history....

But, if a thread on FDR is called for...

Faced with a depression economy and a world war, what would you have done differently ?

As far as the Japanese internment goes, are you also aware that Germans and Italians were also rounded up and spirited away... I know many Italian-Americans were locked up on Ellis Island for the duration, I think the Germans were there too, not sure on that though...and a much greater population of Japanese-Americans were locked up then the Germans or Italians, but it is really a whole lot easier to spot a Japanese-American than it is to spot just another white guy....

Faced with the same predicament, what would you do differently ?? Please note that after 9/11, the current administration adopted the same tactics if not with the same intensity....

I don't think Fletch was talking about the Japanese interment ... he was talking, I assume about taking us off the gold standard.

Surely it can't suprise you that the FDR haters would come out to play today.

Yes - we would have closed a lot more loopholes for corporations and other folks, or we would live in a country as ill-prepared for the events of 9/11 as we were for 12/7.

Since 1941 the United States has spent about $15 Trillion to build the most powerful security, defense and military force the world has ever seen, and how ironic that on 9/11 just a handful of simple men showed the world the immense power that can be wielded not by attacking the United States with the nuclear weapons it has feared for the past 5 decades, but rather with just men's hands, some box cutters, a bit of ingenuity, and the unfaltering willingness to die for your cause.



Last edited by KRL at Dec 7 2003, 11:27 AM

Fletch was talking about the gold standard...

But JR was talking about Japanese internment......


I don't care about the gold standard so much... We are now on the energy standard.. :)

Side's it seems that after millions of years of mankind we should be able to find a better economic standard then a rock (and if it's got to be a rock, let's base it on one that's easier to find.... :yowsa: )

That is the one that will get you every time..... :(


actually it is the "Unquestioning, unfaltering willingness to diefor your cause"

how many times have you made positive referrences to socialism and marxism?

where were the "good marxists"? the biggest ignorance in politics is the assertion that one power hungry prick is better than another. they are all motivated by selfishness, character flaws and ego... not a good will towards men.

"returning power to the people" is rarely more than a pretext for taking it away.

Not trying to tarnish your reputation :), but I agree completely. It points out the fundamental flaw in the Bush policy toward the war on terror - the idea that it is a problem that can be solved exclusively with military force.

I'm an unrepentant leftist, but I'm not one who rants and raves about the interment. Oh, it was a dispicable act based on racism and accomplished absolutely nothing, and is a black mark on our history. Even so, it's hardly suprising in a society that barely "allowed" a portion of its population to actually fight because it wasn't believed that they could (or the descendants of former traitors didn't like the idea of them getting their hands on guns).

Give me a fucking break. I get sick to my stomach everytime 12/7 rolls around when the fucking flag wavers run out to play victim again.

Just like 9-11, the United States brought 12/7 upon themselves.

Does everyone forget what Roosevelt did in July 1941? A fucking crude oil embargo against Japan. Not only that, the nutcase froze nearly all Japanese assets in this country. If those are not acts of war without firing a gun, I dont know what the hell is.

Take your flags and then ram them up your ignorant asses.



Last edited by [Labret] at Dec 7 2003, 12:09 PM

And why, pray tell, did he do those things? What was Japan doing that promted such measures?


Don't give me a slanted negatively twisted answer. State the actual answer.

I know fully well what Roosevelt did in July 41. You seem to be saying that these DIPLOMATIC moves were UNPROVOKED acts of aggression that left the poor, defenseless Japanese with no choice.

Your knowledge of history suggests that you ought to stick to sociology.

And why, pray tell, did he do those things? What was Japan doing that promted such measures?


Don't give me a slanted negatively twisted answer. State the actual answer.[/b][/quote]
You will never learn will you.

Japanese invasion of French Indo-China. Now tell me why that was a threat to the United States.

Regardless, I am tired of Americans crying for shit they bring upon themselves.

Eat dick Smith, this is between me and other Americans. Keep your communist ass out of it. :ph34r:

Hey Smith, while you are frantically searching google for some neocon revisionist history, I have a question.

Do black Canadians call themselves African-Canadian?

You will never learn will you.

Japanese invasion of French Indo-China. Now tell me why that was a threat to the United States.

Regardless, I am tired of Americans crying for shit they bring upon themselves.

Eat dick Smith, this is between me and other Americans. Keep your communist ass out of it. :ph34r:[/b][/quote]
Hmm.

Japan commits another one of a series of acts of agression.

The U.S. responds severely, but not militarily.

Japan is therefore entitled to attack the United States.

Japan had been fighting with China since 1894 and the first Sino-Japanese war. Nobody even paid them any mind until 1938 when Japan proclaimed there would be a "New Order in East Asia" and their subsequent joining of the Tripartite pact with Italy and Germany. THEN, and only then, does it become an issue for the United States. They stood by for years while Japan shitfuck stomped China's ass. The embargo was Roosevelt slapping the Japanese in the face, so they killed a bunch of Americans. Good.

Its damn sad when I have to answer the question for you.

What do you think they United States would do if someone who had the ability, shut off all the oil flowing into the country? Dont even bother answering.



Last edited by [Labret] at Dec 7 2003, 01:41 PM

So, let's see....

If you are providing something to me in some fashion...

and then I piss you off and you decide to stop providing that something...

I can kill you ?

And furthermore, it will be your fault ?

Damn, I kind of like that idea.....






:yowsa:

If my withering old memory serves me right, back in 1973 that happened....

And I don't remember us invading anybody over it....

:unsure:

Leave it to the simple to try and drag it down to their level so they can understand it.

A quick replay. Japan had been aggressive for nearly 50 years prior to 1941, for Pdoggy and Roosevelt to use it as some sort of excuse for economic santions is as absurd now as it was back then. Roosevelt simply jumped the gun when Japan joined the Axis. Prior to that, the US and Japan were butt buddies. Japan had two choices, fight or die. Japan was busy kicking major ass in Asia, building a massive empire, and Roosevelt thought the Japanese would just stand back and let him destroy their economy? Riiiight.

The mechanics of it is almost of no consequence, the point is, Americans love to cry about shit they bring upon themselves. You would not be gimping out to put your flag at half mast for the "victims" had Roosevelt pulled his head out of his ass. America got what America asked for.

12/7 should be remember for Roosevelt being a fuckup, not Pearl Harbor.

If my withering old memory serves me right, back in 1973 that happened....

And I don't remember us invading anybody over it....

:unsure:[/b][/quote]

All of the oil was cut off by Opec?

Not even fucking close. MAYBE a quarter of what we imported came from Opec.

Valiant effort I guess.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/25opec/sld002.htm



Last edited by [Labret] at Dec 7 2003, 02:27 PM

You can denounce Howard Zinn as a peace activist all you want, Mr. Academic Genius, but you sound like a recording of him. Everything wrong with the world post 1898 is, of course, America's fault. Subsitute "liberal" for "America", and you could be 12clicks, Torone, or MikeAI.

It is truly unfortunate that MORE people in the United States, particularly the 96 in the U.S. Senate, didn't respond to the "joining of the Tripartite pact with Italy and Germany" as a call for rearmament - but the grandfathers of the current unilateral interventionists clung to their isolationist fantasy out of naive idealism (or idealogical empathy).

Roosevelt merely did what Coolidge or Hoover should have done, and he waited far too long (in part because he was forced to). I'm hardly a fan of the way U.S. foreign policy is conducted, but an attempt to compare the 1941 embargo with a hypothetical embargo today is absurd at best.

And if folks did cut off the oil today ... the reaction of the U.S. would hardly be a banzii charge.

opinion, all opinion.

You are not an American correct?

Priceless! :P

Not only is PD an American, but he fought for your right to be an American. B)

Priceless! :P

Not only is PD an American, but he fought for your right to be an American. B)[/b][/quote]

Settle down hotrod, I was not going to use it as an insult. Its simply a question. I was going to say I find it sad that often times the most articulate and intelligent arguments I have seen defending the United States and its horrific policy fuckups, come from non Americans. One of those fencewalkers on here is not an American and I forget who it is.

Back to grasping at straws for you MadDog.



Last edited by [Labret] at Dec 7 2003, 02:58 PM

Tell me, what war did he fight in where our nations security was at such stake that if it wasnt for him I might be living under the thumb of some jack booted communist regime?

Speaking of "settling down", lol! All I did was answer your question! :lol:

Who cares? Most of us couldn't care less who is and isn't an American, but since you're making an issue of it and asking people, you apparently do. :unsure:

Not to mention, being born and living in America, doesn't mean you're an American at heart. Just as there are many who weren't born here and have lived here for a short period of time who are more "American" than many who have lived here all their lives. B)

You should care that there are people in other countries that know more about American history than your average WalMart (thats for Sarettah) dwelling shitstain.

You for example. I know of 14 year old Pakistani kids that would stomp your guts out at American History Jeopardy. You ARE case in point.

Let me know as soon as I post something about American history, so you can continue having an argument which currently doesn't exist, OK? :P

In reality it is quite simple, as is most human drama.

:yowsa:

Doesn't matter what war he fought in or if he even fought in a war...

That he was willing to serve his country and did so honorably is really all that should matter of that argument....

The men and women who serve in the armed forces do not get to pick and choose whether, where or why we go to war.....

That they are willing to do what needs to be done to guarantee our security is what they should be honored for...

And frankly, he's pissing me off more and more...remember, only the gov't is proscribed from interfering with Labret's right to speak! We can do a lot to him... :ph34r:

And to any veterans out there (especially those who were at Pearl), Thanks; and my apologies for not dropping the hammer on the dickhead.



Last edited by Torone at Dec 7 2003, 08:49 PM

Doesn't matter what war he fought in or if he even fought in a war...

That he was willing to serve his country and did so honorably is really all that should matter of that argument....

The men and women who serve in the armed forces do not get to pick and choose whether, where or why we go to war.....

That they are willing to do what needs to be done to guarantee our security is what they should be honored for...[/b][/quote]

I could care less. Peaches said he fought so I could be a proud American. I was just wondering when it was at stake.

Get off your soap box. Most people now join the military for college money or vo-tech skills. Nobody with an IQ over 40 in this country wants to die in a jungle somewhere, hunting an ideological boogey man. Willing? They have no choice.

I would love to see the results if they voluntarily let active duty decide whether or not they would go to Iraq. There would be no war in Iraq right now.

And frankly, he's pissing me off more and more...remember, only the gov't is proscribed from interfering with Labret's right to speak! We can do a lot to him... :ph34r:

And to any veterans out there (especially those who were at Pearl), Thanks; and my apologies for not dropping the hammer on the dickhead.[/b][/quote]

Please, I dream of the day I see you make an attempt at a semi-lucid argument so I can ram it back up your ass from whence it came.

All of the oil was cut off by Opec?

Not even fucking close. MAYBE a quarter of what we imported came from Opec.

Valiant effort I guess.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/25opec/sld002.htm[/b][/quote]
Very nearly all imported oil was shut off....

http://www.2facts.com/Ancillaries/index/h02419.asp

"the embargo was nearly 100% effective in cutting off the supply of oil imported to the U.S. Crude oil imports were reduced from 1.2 million barrels a day in September 1973 to 19,000 barrels a day in January and February"

Lets see, you would have been 1 or 2 years old then, so most of what you would know about it would have been what you have read (no criticism intended there).. I was 18 and I remember it quite well... Lots of waiting in fucking lines for gas, lots of extremely high prices, lots of stations runing out of fuel and lots of really pissed off people yelling for us to go in to the Mideast...

Good god man, those are DOE stats and they say that only 30% of oil consumed in this country in 1973 was imported. 30 fucking percent.
And like your link states, "imported" oil. So, 100% of the 30%? Whoope do, where the fuck was the other 70% coming from?

Your claim that we suffered an embargo the likes that Japan was facing is faaaaalse.



Last edited by [Labret] at Dec 7 2003, 07:23 PM

You asked :

and OPEC shut off very nearly ALL the OIL flowing INTO the country...

They did not shut down our domestic supply...It was already here....

and Yes, Japan did not have a cdomestic supply, but if I remember right, grabbing oil was their whole reason for being in Indochina in the first place now wasn't it.....

So, Japan's ability to mount the Pearl Harbor invasion in December, after 5 months of embargo demonstrates that their supply of oil was not 100% cut off either, doesn't it....



Last edited by sarettah at Dec 7 2003, 10:26 PM

I did not claim that...

I merely answered your question...

Don't put words in my mouth skippy.

:awinky:

I stated

You then stated

I asked what would happen if someone shut off ALL the oil flowing into the country (like the Japanese faced).

and again, you said

Which it did not in 1973. Only a portion of imports stopped.

Then you pop back off with some crap about 100% of the "imported" oil, which had nothing to do with anything, other than I think you saw the 100% and got all happy without paying much attention to what you were even talking about.

Just go back to sleep.



Last edited by [Labret] at Dec 7 2003, 07:37 PM

"Oil FLOWING INTO THE COUNTRY" was the key to the question as I saw it... You didn't say 100% of their oil supply....

You can try to make it mean whatever you want it to mean, but it reads as "imports" to me....






:yowsa:

And I was not tryting to fool you with the 100%...

I was pointing out that we imported at that point 1.2 million barrels a day and during the embargo that was reduced to 19,000 barrels a day....

lets see 19,000 by 1.2 million means that imports were reduced to 1.5% of thier pre embargo levels meaning 98.5% of imported oil was cut off....

That is pretty damn close to 100% of the imports....

And where do you think Japan was getting all of its oil? From those massive Japanese oil fields? Nearly 100% of its oil was imported.

Faced with losing it all, they moved onto the Dutch East Indies to fuel their war machine. And we all know what happens next.

The Zipperheads were not faced with an Opec style embargo.


I have a paper to do. Back later, I promise.

Have fun... I am probably out of here in a few minutes....

When you get back, let's talk about the base reason...... (treaty of Versailles, what happened to Japan there and how that bled into the whole mess)



Last edited by sarettah at Dec 7 2003, 10:55 PM

First of all, I never "fought", as such ... spend some time in antisubmarine warfare, which was as "close to the edge" as things got between 74-78, but we were still recovering from Vietnam and not in a hurry to go kill a bunch of small brown people at the time (unless you count Reagan's Lybian hissyfit or the Grenadian excursion).

Am I an American? Well, I'm liberal, so MikeAI doesn't think so sometimes. Nevertheless, I am the descendent of good German Bürgers, some of whom defended a St. Louis armory from the traitors and kept Missouri in the Union; and of your typical escaped indentured servants of Scottish and Irish origin who came to Missouri with Daniel Boone when Ohio got too croweded (but departed his company after a "dispute" over the ownership of some horses). Had a great uncle on my mother's side who was a member of the IWW, and a (whatever the hell my father's 2nd cousin would be) who was deported back to Germany for membership in the Bund.

I spent a great deal of my teen years in VERY active opposition to the Vietnam war, then dropped out of college and joined the U.S. Navy in December, 1973. BTW, anyone who thinks there is the least bit of inconsistency there is a fucking moron. While I was in boot camp the oil embargo hit, and my Company Commander assured us daily that we would soon be going to war with the "A-rabs"; the price of gas had more than doubled during my 9 weeks in training.

My mother's father was a doughboy. My father joined the U.S. Coast Guard in mid-1940, and was very disappointed when he found out his plan to defend the Mississipi River had a small hole in it - when Pearl Harbor came, he was looking for German submarines in the North Atlantic. My mother's brother lied and joined the USMC at 16.

Am I an American? I think I qualify.

See, this is where you prove that your success in the academic factory has caused you to have very limited contact with reality. You are partially correct. Many of the people who are in the military join because they have no choice, just as many of the people in academia have no choice either - after all, those who can't, teach.

But in spite of your bigotry, there are all kinds of intelligent people in the military services who are there because that's what they want to be doing. I know plenty of high-school-dropout enlisted guys who have no more education than that available from a library card who could rip you into tiny little shreds in a debate on just about any subject imaginable. And it doesn't take a lot of intelligence to recognize that only a fucking fool WANTS to go die in a sand pit or a jungle - but somebody has to protect the cowards who avoid reality in academia, and are WILLING to go die if necessary.

Have fun... I am probably out of here in a few minutes....

When you get back, let's talk about the base reason...... (treaty of Versailles, what happened to Japan there and how that bled into the whole mess)[/b][/quote]

Actually, it hit me while I was working on my paper. I see what you are saying now.

Hey, thats not aimed at me is it?

Back to paper. Write me more love notes while I am gone.



Last edited by [Labret] at Dec 7 2003, 08:16 PM

Interesting. I have a good friend who owns several multimillion dollar businesses (electronics, home theater installation, security systems, etc.). When business was booming, he joined the reserves because he was thankful for what he was allowed to do in this country. He's been to Libya, Afghanistan and recently returned from Iraq. He didn't need to join in order to get money OR skills and I can promise you, his IQ is WELL above 40 (he's one year older than you, BTW and getting ready to retire and he didn't have to make his millions doing something illegal....of course, he also didn't go to college, so I'm sure YOU think he's an idiot and a failure, lol! :lol: ). And I can promise you he is one of thousands who joined up for the same reasons he had.

Do you read newspapers or just textbooks? It's a proven fact that more people have joined the military in the last few years when we've been actively engaged in combat than in peacetime. Most branches are experiencing record recruitment levels. Many of these recruits are college graduates as well as those with masters and PhDs.

In fact, many RETIRED military, who already have careers, training, education, etc. signed back up.

Since my son is attempting to enlist, I can tell you it is NOT easy. He has genius IQ (hope he's not reading this....), took AP classes in HS (including AP calculus - he obviously got his math skills from his GA Tech father and NOT from me) and he very well may not get in because he broke his arm 5 years ago and has a metal plate in it. The lines are so long at the recruiting offices that they can and do cherry pick who goes into the military.

In addition, I read a popular military message board almost every day. It's an anonymous board, so there would be no retribution, and I bet out of
500+ posts a day, I've seen 10 posters in the last 6 months who were being deployed to Iraq have any hint of misgivings for signing up OR going to combat. Again, you're so out of touch with the caliber of men and women currently serving in the military that I wonder where you get your information from. Surely you're not making statements without some frame of reference. :unsure:

Seriously, it does amaze me how out of touch with ACTUAL human behavior and society you are for someone who has spent so many years studying it. Do you not have a wide circle of friends and family you can discuss things with or must everything come from a text book or lecture? :(

We're dealing with alot of young folx who just do not understand words like "honor" and "duty". They're used to everything being given to them and not having to work for anything.

The difference between them and the WWII generation is frightening. And that generation is very rapidly dying off, hopefully their values are not lost forever.