http://www.den94ek.cz/peklo/pic/pic-other-birth.jpg

http://www.den94ek.cz/peklo/pic/pic-other-abort1.jpg

I apologize for the images.. but it's important to know the reality of what we're talking about. After going to this site and reading up on the actual process of partial birth abortion and how it's used I've decided it's wrong. Only in extreme situations could it ever be allowed. It's so sad. As a father I wish I could've taken all these babies into my home. What a tragedy.

Is there anyone here who thinks partial birth abortion should be utilized as a form of birth control?




Last edited by Squirt at Nov 10 2003, 04:13 AM

no arguments from me...

:barfon:

I don't think it should. I am not totally against abortion, however, this is just wrong in every sense of the word. That makes me just want to cry. I can't have children anymore, and I would have given anything to have them.

Its called Russian birth control....ask Serge

My mother is an OB-GYN nurse midwife who works at two hospitals and teaches classes at two colleges in town.

I've spoken to her at length about this. Her experience (and she's been either an OB-GYN nurse or a nurse midwife for almost 35 years) has been that mothers who have late term abortions are NOT doing it for birth control. Everyone she's ever dealt with has wanted the baby desperately, spent a lot of time agonizing over the decision and were devastated that it had to end that way. In every case the child would not have lived outside the womb and many could have caused the mother to die or require major surgery if she had continued to keep the baby until full term.

The new law is obviously very arbitrary regarding what they consider "the health of the mother" exception as proven by judges who KNOW the law filing against it. My Mom made the point that the women who are having late term abortions performed for birth control will do exactly what the women who want early term abortions performed will do if they were outlawed - they WOULD find a doctor to perform them.

It's not a pretty thing for anyone to have to deal with, but again, I'm going by what she's telling me and she has no reason to lie. They are necessities in every situation she's witnessed and I find it hard to believe the rest of the country is that much different. :(



Last edited by Peaches at Nov 10 2003, 09:11 AM

I agree. It's amazing how they do this. They pull the baby out by it's legs. Leave the head in the vagina while they cut open the back of the neck with scissors. Then they use the suction tube to suck the babies brain out. All this while the baby is flailing it's arms and legs.

Diagrams of the exact process are here: http://www.priestsforlife.org/partialbirth.html#showit

Its called Russian birth control....ask Serge[/b][/quote]
After reading your posts both here and over at ammasters I can only say that you are the perfect advert for abortion!

I couldn't imagine being a woman that had to go through that. Feeling the baby moving as it's neck is being cut open and brain being sucked out. Isn't the fact that the baby is alive and moving enough to try and help it survive? My son was 6 weeks premature. I remember being able to hold him in just one hand.. he was so small. The partial birth abortion babies are much bigger. I don't understand this.



Last edited by Squirt at Nov 10 2003, 05:20 AM

Squirt.... (I knew you would have pics, so I jumped past them without looking)...

The description you wrote is graphic enough to convince most people.....

and in most cases, when it comes to partial birth abortions, I believe you are preaching to the choir.....

After reading your posts both here and over at ammasters I can only say that you are the perfect advert for abortion![/b][/quote]
Hey Trev, you gotta do better than that. The abortion comment was jr. high....but I detect an English accent here.....shame about your O levels mate.

Squirt.... (I knew you would have pics, so I jumped past them without looking)...

The description you wrote is graphic enough to convince most people.....

and in most cases, when it comes to partial birth abortions, I believe you are preaching to the choir.....[/b][/quote]

Well I think the pictures document the reality of it and leave nothing to the imagination.. which is important when discussing human life/death. People can have moral/ethical discussions.. but when you see the result of peoples actions.. it puts things in perspective.

After reading your posts both here and over at ammasters I can only say that you are the perfect advert for abortion![/b][/quote]
even partial would do
;-)))

even partial would do
;-)))[/b][/quote]
Yeah, more russian birth control, serge. I hear they do them in SPID clinics now....out at Spidway....

do you always inhale when you suck cock?

I heard he gargles.

Don't you?

Perhaps so....

But in reality, the "in your face" attitude and tactics that are used by the "right gto lifers" is what loses the argument for them many times....

We are intelligent people for the most part, capable of making decisions, capable of reasoning....

When shit is shoved in my face, I will often just turn the other way....

I do not need to see every bad thing in the world to know they are bad....

Besides, a textual description and one's own imagination can usually give a much more disturbing picture than reality ever can.....

just imo of course.....

Hey Trev, you gotta do better than that. The abortion comment was jr. high....but I detect an English accent here.....shame about your O levels mate.[/b][/quote]


Mate.. I love that word! Here in Oz all the guys say it.. especially the new one I just filmed. Nothing like these hot Aussie guys man!

http://www.thextrials.com/NextWeekDJ.jpg

I heard he gargles.[/b][/quote]
he does....
;-((( what alow class thing to do....
;-)))

he does....
;-((( what alow class thing to do....
;-)))[/b][/quote]
Aww I'm sorry Serge, I know you like 'em classy.

It's major surgery and most mothers are under general anesthesia when it's done. These are babies that are barely alive and most mothers were made aware of the situation because the babies WEREN'T moving. They WEREN'T developing correctly.

If you think this is bad, then imagine these same mothers going through labor at 9 months, going through the birth process fully conscious and then watching their baby die within minutes or hours. Some also have the possibility of dying or needing surgery which will prevent them from having children in the future.

One of my HS friends had a partial birth abortion many years ago. It was her 2nd child which had a horrible disease where the brain had not formed past a few months which kept it from surviving without being attached to her through the umbilical cord. She had given birth to a baby with the same disease and had lost so much blood she almost died. She had the partial birth abortion to save her life and she knew from 1st hand experience the baby wouldn't live for more than a few hours. She went on to have 3 healthy children - this was a woman who not only wanted children, but is a very strong Catholic so you can imagine the turmoil to make this decision.

It's the last possible choice for most of he parents who decide to have it, per my Mom. And again, I see no reason for her to lie to me about this.

Perhaps so....

But in reality, the "in your face" attitude and tactics that are used by the "right gto lifers" is what loses the argument for them many times....

We are intelligent people for the most part, capable of making decisions, capable of reasoning....

When shit is shoved in my face, I will often just turn the other way....

I do not need to see every bad thing in the world to know they are bad....

Besides, a textual description and one's own imagination can usually give a much more disturbing picture than reality ever can.....

just imo of course.....[/b][/quote]

To some degree you're right. It's the American way... bury your head in the sand and don't see the reality of the world until someone shoves it in your face... or flies a plane full of people into a building... etc etc.

To not see something is to not acknowledge it's true existance. There are many beautiful things in our world as well. This topic is just not an easy one to see as it really is.

Mate.. I love that word! Here in Oz all the guys say it.. especially the new one I just filmed. Nothing like these hot Aussie guys man!

http://www.thextrials.com/NextWeekDJ.jpg[/b][/quote]
Oh yeah....Aussie....I was close; an antedeluvian wannabe Englishmen. Done your OS to the mother country yet? I know where you can get a good deal on a vw bus, fill it with "front wheelers" nudge nudge, say no more....say NO MORE"... and a backpack.

It's major surgery and most mothers are under general anesthesia when it's done. These are babies that are barely alive and most mothers were made aware of the situation because the babies WEREN'T moving. They WEREN'T developing correctly.

If you think this is bad, then imagine these same mothers going through labor at 9 months, going through the birth process fully conscious and then watching their baby die within minutes or hours. Some also have the possibility of dying or needing surgery which will prevent them from having children in the future.

One of my HS friends had a partial birth abortion many years ago. It was her 2nd child which had a horrible disease where the brain had not formed past a few months which kept it from surviving without being attached to her through the umbilical cord. She had given birth to a baby with the same disease and had lost so much blood she almost died. She had the partial birth abortion to save her life and she knew from 1st hand experience the baby wouldn't live for more than a few hours. She went on to have 3 healthy children - this was a woman who not only wanted children, but is a very strong Catholic so you can imagine the turmoil to make this decision.

It's the last possible choice for most of he parents who decide to have it, per my Mom. And again, I see no reason for her to lie to me about this.[/b][/quote]
Yeah this is pretty much my take on it.. As horrible as the practice is, I can't say that if a situation were that desperate, that the option shouldn't be there for women. Most of the dumb little bitches who use abortion as birth control do it immediately, they don't wait until the baby is bigger or older. Sure, there are a few bad apples, but that does not dismiss the fact that for some women, the proceedure is a heart-wrenching, but neccessary and life-saving one.

It's a horrible world, and horrible things happen. I think it's just as barbaric and disgusting for women who really don't want children, or have children so they can stay on welfare, abuse, mistreat, and neglect their children.

For the record, I think women who use abortion as a form of birth control should be strung up and shot. They should be sterilized and beaten to within an inch of their lives. There's such a thing as birth control, and the morning after pill. The only time I would EVER agree with any form of abortion is if it was medical, or an extreme situation (a 11 year old girl pregnant by her father's rape or something like that).

It's major surgery and most mothers are under general anesthesia when it's done. These are babies that are barely alive and most mothers were made aware of the situation because the babies WEREN'T moving. They WEREN'T developing correctly.

If you think this is bad, then imagine these same mothers going through labor at 9 months, going through the birth process fully conscious and then watching their baby die within minutes or hours. Some also have the possibility of dying or needing surgery which will prevent them from having children in the future.

One of my HS friends had a partial birth abortion many years ago. It was her 2nd child which had a horrible disease where the brain had not formed past a few months which kept it from surviving without being attached to her through the umbilical cord. She had given birth to a baby with the same disease and had lost so much blood she almost died. She had the partial birth abortion to save her life and she knew from 1st hand experience the baby wouldn't live for more than a few hours. She went on to have 3 healthy children - this was a woman who not only wanted children, but is a very strong Catholic so you can imagine the turmoil to make this decision.

It's the last possible choice for most of he parents who decide to have it, per my Mom. And again, I see no reason for her to lie to me about this.[/b][/quote]

These are babies that are not developing correctly:

http://www.den94ek.cz/peklo/pic/pic-def-mono2.jpg

http://www.den94ek.cz/peklo/pic/pic-other-dah3.jpg

http://www.den94ek.cz/peklo/pic/pic-other-dah2.jpg

http://www.den94ek.cz/peklo/pic/pic-def-trip.jpg

http://www.den94ek.cz/peklo/pic/pic-def-mono6.jpg

Hey Trev, you gotta do better than that. The abortion comment was jr. high....but I detect an English accent here.....shame about your O levels mate.[/b][/quote]
Not wanting to detract from the intention of this thread I felt that I should reply to you here:

http://www.oprano.com/msgboard/index.php?s...t=ST&f=1&t=6923

These are babies that are not developing correctly:

http://www.den94ek.cz/peklo/pic/pic-def-mono2.jpg

http://www.den94ek.cz/peklo/pic/pic-other-dah3.jpg

http://www.den94ek.cz/peklo/pic/pic-other-dah2.jpg

http://www.den94ek.cz/peklo/pic/pic-def-trip.jpg

http://www.den94ek.cz/peklo/pic/pic-def-mono6.jpg[/b][/quote]
Obvious physical defects are NOT the only ways a fetus can develop incorrectly.. There are a MULTITUDE of medical complications that can occur that can quickly cause death after the birth of the child, and not all of them are visible.

It's major surgery and most mothers are under general anesthesia when it's done. These are babies that are barely alive and most mothers were made aware of the situation because the babies WEREN'T moving. They WEREN'T developing correctly.

If you think this is bad, then imagine these same mothers going through labor at 9 months, going through the birth process fully conscious and then watching their baby die within minutes or hours. Some also have the possibility of dying or needing surgery which will prevent them from having children in the future.

One of my HS friends had a partial birth abortion many years ago. It was her 2nd child which had a horrible disease where the brain had not formed past a few months which kept it from surviving without being attached to her through the umbilical cord. She had given birth to a baby with the same disease and had lost so much blood she almost died. She had the partial birth abortion to save her life and she knew from 1st hand experience the baby wouldn't live for more than a few hours. She went on to have 3 healthy children - this was a woman who not only wanted children, but is a very strong Catholic so you can imagine the turmoil to make this decision.

It's the last possible choice for most of he parents who decide to have it, per my Mom. And again, I see no reason for her to lie to me about this.[/b][/quote]


I couldn't imagine having to go through what she did. But the first pictures I showed were healthy babies. Nothing appeared wrong with them.

There is always the exception.. and the end result is bad.. no matter how you look at it. I still maintain that it's a womans right to decide to do with her body, and what is growing in her body, what she wishes. This partial birth abortion thing really stretches the limit though. I mean.. if a woman is going to allow a doctor to pull this baby out.. all the way so only the head is in.. then technically it's in our world and subect to the rights of a normal human being. What do you think about this?

I remember going to the clinic with a friend.. waiting at the front.. and seeing this white trash hoe come in... says to the lady behind the desk.. " Hi .. I'm bla bla bla... I need to get an abortion. I've done this 9 times before.. I'm sure you have my information on file" WTF? So sad... but probably better her child die then be born addicted to drugs, abused, tortured and end up what kind of an adult?

Oh yeah....Aussie....I was close; an antedeluvian wannabe Englishmen. Done your OS to the mother country yet? I know where you can get a good deal on a vw bus, fill it with "front wheelers" nudge nudge, say no more....say NO MORE"... and a backpack.[/b][/quote]


LOL... okay.. yeah I'm an American here in Oz.. love the Mates! yum yum!

I couldn't imagine having to go through what she did. But the first pictures I showed were healthy babies. Nothing appeared wrong with them.

There is always the exception.. and the end result is bad.. no matter how you look at it. I still maintain that it's a womans right to decide to do with her body, and what is growing in her body, what she wishes. This partial birth abortion thing really stretches the limit though. I mean.. if a woman is going to allow a doctor to pull this baby out.. all the way so only the head is in.. then technically it's in our world and subect to the rights of a normal human being. What do you think about this?[/b][/quote]
Unfortunately you are taking the viewpoint that all the women getting this procedure are doing so as birth control, which is NOT the case.. Peaches is like me I believe in this. I would not want to see a perfectly healthy baby and a perfectly healthy mother go through this procedure. Really though this is a last resort, and a large majority of the women who have it done have REAL medical reasons for it, and don't come to the decision easily. It's easy to cast stones when you're on the other side of the fence.. But could you look into your wife's eyes and tell her that her AND the child should die because partial birth abortion is wrong, and you would never allow the procedure even to save her life? You never know when it can happen to you. There is black, there is white, and then there are all the shades of grey in between. Everyone could argue until they are blue in the face, and everyone has their feelings, but the facts remain NOBODY is 100% right.



Last edited by LadyMischief at Nov 10 2003, 05:53 AM

And you received your medical degree from where? And you examined these babies when? And you're 100% positive the pictures are exactly what the site claims they are? :unsure:

But it's OK if the baby dies a horrible death when it's fuller to term (which, in my Mom's experience, they will ALL do) and the mother has a possibility of dying with it.

You mean the right to die upon birth and possibly kill or render the mother sterile in the process?

Sorry, but having a friend go through this process and having a Mother with decades of experience, I tend to believe what they tell me before believing a male with website links.

Obvious physical defects are NOT the only ways a fetus can develop incorrectly.. There are a MULTITUDE of medical complications that can occur that can quickly cause death after the birth of the child, and not all of them are visible.[/b][/quote]


Right. That being said these women decided to give birth to these things.. was that right? Or would have abortion been a better option?

I remember going to the clinic with a friend.. waiting at the front.. and seeing this white trash hoe come in... says to the lady behind the desk.. " Hi .. I'm bla bla bla... I need to get an abortion. I've done this 9 times before.. I'm sure you have my information on file" WTF? So sad... but probably better her child die then be born addicted to drugs, abused, tortured and end up what kind of an adult?[/b][/quote]
Ahh see that is illegal here. There is a limit to the number of abortions a woman can have here for non-medical reasons. And even then, they attempt to have a woman go through several other alternatives (such as counselling and adoption is also pushed hard) before they allow it.

I've already made my opinion pretty clear though on what I feel about those women. It's a slap in the face to women like me who wanted desperately to have children, but have nothing but trouble. I almost died having my first two and this third will be my last, and the medical complications will be huge. People who take children and their lives for granted make me physically ill.

Right. That being said these women decided to give birth to these things.. was that right? Or would have abortion been a better option?[/b][/quote]
That decision isn't for me to judge them on, though, is it? I have no idea of their situations or beliefs.

It should be the mother's choice.

Unfortunately you are taking the viewpoint that all the women getting this proceedure are doing so as birth control, which is NOT the case.. Peaches is like me I believe in this. I would not want to see a perfectly healthy baby and a perfectly healthy mother go through this proceedure. Really though this is a last resort, and a large majority of the women who have it done have REAL medical reasons for it, and don't come to the decision easily. It's easy to cast stones when you're on the other side of the fence.. But could you look into your wife's eyes and tell her that her AND the child should die because partial birth abortion is wrong, and you would never allow the proceedure even to save her life? You never know when it can happen to you. There is black, there is white, and then there are all the shades of grey in between. Everyone could argue until they are blue in the face, and everyone has their feelings, but the facts remain NOBODY is 100% right.[/b][/quote]


I'm not at all under the impression that all women are doing this for birth control. That being said.. partial birth abortion is a medical procedure that by it's definition is "controling" the birth of a child. Terminating a pregnancy before full term is abortion. I think abortion is up to the woman. It's her right to do with her body as she pleases. period. All of us have an innate right to control our own bodies. Whether a woman kills the baby in her for serious medical reasons or just because it's inconvenient .. that is her right. There are good reasons to abort and their are bad reasons.

She should be sterilized.

I'm all for abortion, but when people start using it as chronic birth control it's time to start sterilizing.

I honestly wish it wasn't a woman's right to kill a baby just because she was a dumb slut who didn't take a pill or didn't insist on a condom. I wish it was a perfect world and those women had to give their children to loving adoptive families who couldn't have their own children and will ensure the baby has a good home. It's not a perfect world though. How I wish it was, especially for my kid's sake.

Ahh see that is illegal here. There is a limit to the number of abortions a woman can have here for non-medical reasons. And even then, they attempt to have a woman go through several other alternatives (such as counselling and adoption is also pushed hard) before they allow it.

I've already made my opinion pretty clear though on what I feel about those women. It's a slap in the face to women like me who wanted desperately to have children, but have nothing but trouble. I almost died having my first two and this third will be my last, and the medical complications will be huge. People who take children and their lives for granted make me physically ill.[/b][/quote]

Yes but their decisions and beliefs is what brought this child into the world in this state... and for what? It all comes down to selfish reasons on the mother part. I'm not saying selfish reasons are bad. But she made the choice to bring the child into the world.

She should be sterilized.

I'm all for abortion, but when people start using it as chronic birth control it's time to start sterilizing.[/b][/quote]
Fucking rights she should be.

Yes but their decisions and beliefs is what brought this child into the world in this state... and for what? It all comes down to selfish reasons on the mother part. I'm not saying selfish reasons are bad. But she made the choice to bring the child into the world.[/b][/quote]
I'm talking about the mothers who decide to give birth to deformed babies.. It's their decision, and nobody can really judge them based on that decision, just like it wouldn't be my right to judge them if they had terminated the pregnancy. Some people handle those situations better than others.. Some have strong religious beliefs on the subject. It's not always about selfishness. I think some people are so quick to judge, but sometimes it's the things we don't know about that are the deciding factors. If a woman is just a slut who is too stupid to use birth control, that makes itself pretty obvious, but like I say there are elements to every situation that are contributing factors. I would never force a child who was pregnant due to rape to have a baby.. would you? I don't think it would be selfish for that child to be spared that.. I'm a situationalist, I guess. It all depends on the situation and motivation at the time.

And you received your medical degree from where? And you examined these babies when? And you're 100% positive the pictures are exactly what the site claims they are? :unsure:

But it's OK if the baby dies a horrible death when it's fuller to term (which, in my Mom's experience, they will ALL do) and the mother has a possibility of dying with it.

You mean the right to die upon birth and possibly kill or render the mother sterile in the process?

Sorry, but having a friend go through this process and having a Mother with decades of experience, I tend to believe what they tell me before believing a male with website links.[/b][/quote]


My sex has nothing to do with my viewpoints. I stated that the babies "appeared" to be normal. You don't need a medical degree to state that something appears normal.

Babies in a trashbag signifies how some view these children. I view them differently. I cherish life and if a child of mine died.. it would not end up in a trash can. No matter how it died. I would respect the memory of my dead child and give it the dignity of a burial.

I also stated that there are always exceptions and that ultimately it's the mothers choice. So if you think I'm "sexist" or something because I feel it's the womans right to choose then so be it. I don't have to have tits, ovaries and a vagina to know the difference between right and wrong.

I hear you on that one. All I can do is raise my son with a respect for life and help him learn how to make good choices. Top of the list is birth control.. then choosing a partner with strong character.. etc etc.. good choices can help lessen the chances of ending up with a woman that will kill your child. :rokk:

I second that with every fiber of my being.

I'm talking about the mothers who decide to give birth to deformed babies.. It's their decision, and nobody can really judge them based on that decision, just like it wouldn't be my right to judge them if they had terminated the pregnancy. Some people handle those situations better than others.. Some have strong religious beliefs on the subject. It's not always about selfishness. I think some people are so quick to judge, but sometimes it's the things we don't know about that are the deciding factors. If a woman is just a slut who is too stupid to use birth control, that makes itself pretty obvious, but like I say there are elements to every situation that are contributing factors. I would never force a child who was pregnant due to rape to have a baby.. would you? I don't think it would be selfish for that child to be spared that.. I'm a situationalist, I guess. It all depends on the situation and motivation at the time.[/b][/quote]


Right.. I think our wires are getting crossed here. The "selfishness" thing was in reference to the drug baby picture... selfish doing drugs while pregnant.. then carrying the baby to term.

Given the correct set of circumstances every human being has the ability to kill another. It's been proven.

These woman are killing their babies... I could make it a nice term "terminating pregancies" "aborting" etc. But the end result, no matter how you sugar coat it , is a dead baby. And let me re-iterate again. I am not against these women killing their babies. Sometimes you have to do it for all the right reasons.

Yeah doing drugs while pregnant is selfish, as is drinking alcohol etc.. Those poor kids never had a chance to begin with. It's too bad there isn't some kind of test that people have to take before getting pregnant, and some master switch somewhere that turns her ability to concieve on and off. :)

Btw... tell me this is one of the straight ones. Yummy. I could lick that for hours :P