We started advertising with one board during it's peak several years ago.... things started slowing down.. and i pulled the ad. Saw absolutely no decline in biz at all as a result. What made me pull the ads was simply that i found the place to be boring and I stopped visiting as obsessively.

Now I'm seeing the exact same thing happen on another board... used to be semi-interesting conversations.. now it largely seems like complete idiots talking about the dumbest things I can imagine... so i stop visiting hourly.. start visiting 1 or 2 times daily... and over the past week or so i find myself visiting 1 time daily if i'm lucky.

Am i just super capable of predicting the demise of a board and using my personal interest in that board as an indicator of it's effectiveness as an ad tool? Or am i just missing some "branding" and "eyeballs" point?

Obviously the webmaster "hangout" is always evolving... what do you think? Who's up? who's down? who's totally dead?

I can try to answer that but I might be biased ;)
As to the eyeball issue, I think its not a new concept that brand has its value and branding is an important tool.
You may not see an effect dropping one board, but the fact that no one will know you if you advertise nowhere makes it apparent that somewhere down the line its advertising that makes you known.
As advertising is not my field of expertise I may leave the explanations to advertising/marketing people :rolleyes:

I'm also biased so I can't really comment but advertising is also more than jsut clicks...

In my experience:

If I advertise somewhere I don't see an immediate result because most people already know my proggy...

If I pull my banners somewhere I don't see an immediate decline, because most people knew my proggy already anyway...

BUT If I don't advertise at all then people will forget about my proggy....

IMHO the best strategy is when you launch a new proggy advertise everywhere to get a good impact, then after 2 months start rotating your ads around various webmaster sources to make sure people don't forget.

This is very good advice, it seems a lot of people handle their webmaster advertising like this....

Hooper, do you think its the fact that the boards are getting boring, or that you've read it all before?

there's an article posted in one of these other threads somewhere by calculus, about something to do with online advertising/traffic or whatever ... i scrolled straight past it. it looked like all the same things, just being learned by different generations of webmasters. i'm so sick of reading the same thing ... but its not that the industry has changed, its that it has, for the most part, stayed the same.

your becoming a veteran now hooper, starting to get jaded in your old age :biglaugh:

haha. jaded in my older years.. i guess you hit 27 (dont worry, you'll get there someday cj ;-) and you're a vet? hehehe

no. i'm more referring to the quality of the conversation on gfy obviously... i just find it difficult to believe that it's worth advertising to the lowest common denominator.

as a surfer yes.. you HAVE to appeal to the lcd.. but.. with webmasters there is (or i would assume there is) a direct correlation between intelligence and income for the most part... which to me would mean that the more intelligent/heavy hitters cant possibly be spending much time over there anymore.

I mean.. when your top discussions are "Thank You Hun", "Post and ugly chick pic", "Weed Prices", "Owned", etc..etc.

the comments about branding are the only ones that make any sense i guess, although i can go through conversioncash & quickbuck and count on my hands and toes the number of valuable webmasters in the program.... take away all the webmasters below the top 20 and we wouldnt notice much of a decline in sales.... and every one of those top 20 are personal relationships that we actively built... so really then, from a program owners standpoint.. do you think that branding only has value for recrutiting smaller webmasters? or do "heavy hitters" get wooed by the ads?

yea. i guess i *am* getting jaded. anybody wannay buy a few web sites?

yes, at my next birthday in fact ;-)

oops, i thought you were referring to this board :biglaugh:

Hooper, imagine if you set up an affiliate program, whose target was not to get many actual sales, but to generate a huge base of free traffic to use in other projects ... you aim your program to the lowest common denominator and you offer things like dvd players and points and fancy gimmicks & features that the lcd webmaster is attracted to.

imagine your sites are designed to convert at 1/1000 or worse, but you have really good webmaster support & service so your webmasters are convinced that's "normal" because of your extensive newbie education lounge which tells them so.

Say you pay $30 per member, you spend $30 to buy 1000 (or more!)unique, targetted visitors to whatever you choose to exit them to.

Even though many programs pay on exit, they usually milk a bit off to somewhere else that you don't get paid for ... that 1000 clicks is resold over and over and it only cost $30.

The obvious business model isn't the only one!

I think there's a lot to consider when it comes to advertising. Sites that you might think would do poorly could give you excellent results.

I know that a lot of people advertise on huge boards and pay extremely high prices for advertising. I think you should consider the sliglty smaller ones that don't cost as much and that'll help with branding for one.

If you always go for the most expensive ad spots on boards you're limiting the amount of branding you can do because you and I know that everyone has a advertising budget and you've used most of it up on just a couple of places.

I'd also check the Alexa traffic rankings to see what they're like on some of the sites you're advertising. That might give you some idea of just how busy the place is.

:inlove:



Last edited by princess at Jun 23 2003, 08:32 AM

want a job princess? :)

Giving away business secrets again CJ???

:D

I always keep lines for opp. open *wink*

:inlove:

not mine ... just someone else's :biglaugh:

I think my good friend Princess is absolutely right. She definately knows her stuff. For instance, we have advertised on many different WM boards and resource sites. Our best results have actually been on the smaller boards and I think this may be because webmasters on the larger boards like gfy don't necessarily click on banners anymore. I think that if you want to make your program grow successfully and your target is to get the webmasters that make signups you need to personally court those webmasters. The big guys don't watch the banners like newbies do. I think that to rotate your advertising like Timon said. I think he is 100% accurate in his advertising methods.

I also like to see if the resource site/board owners believe in the quality of their members. One recent example would be that I was looking into buying a top ad spot at a very large board *no names mentioned* I was offered a certain price if I commit to a 6 month run. When I called the guy up to discuss it further he told me that his boss didn't think we were big enough players to commit to a 6 month term. I told him "OK I will prepay 6 months of advertising at the rate you quoted me but at the end of 6 months if I haven't averaged 50 clicks a day through this board then you will refund 10% to me or give me a free month's advertising" Needless to say I think they knew the quality of their members and said that this was not possible. But, they had just sent me the graphs on their traffic and with the numbers running through there they should have been able to do so. Moral of the story. If they don't believe in their traffic Why should I and pay a huge amount to them when I can go somewhere like RatedHot and get good quality members that do pay attention to the advertising.

Damn, CJ and Hooper are 4 years older than me ...

Well, okay, so you have to add their ages together for that, but ...

undermyspell, another reason why YOU might get better results on smaller boards is because the larger boards have better bullshit radars ;-))

LOL

Whats scary is that we've both been in the adult internet biz for 5 years already.

I'm stuck at 25 for the rest of my online life I just turn back the clock back each year...

Don't you track your referrals from each board Hooper?

Sabby:)

Sabby have not seen you in awhile are you sporting new accessories on that there chest of yours? WOO HOO, nice nice nice!

yes. but it's a bad indicator of the performance of an ad when you are just working on branding.. but it is a good indicator if you are launching a new program... problem is that you reach a point where everybody is already basically signed up with you somewhere (i dont have that problem yet.. just theoretically)..

like maxcash or ce or tcg for example.. i doubt any of them get any "new" webmasters other than the occasionaly straggler who's probably already too late for the party anyways... after all, is there anybody here who doesnt already have 5 or 10 accounts with them?

the one thing i'm really enjoying about this discussion is the talk about small boards. i think that is definitely a good way to go and i may start persuing that.

i'd even advertise on Oprano if john "wheres my fuckin money" cotac would give me a deal! ;-)



Last edited by Hooper at Jun 24 2003, 10:23 AM

Hehe, the only special deal he'd give you is an offer you can't refuse ;-))

Sabby have not seen you in awhile are you sporting new accessories on that there chest of yours? WOO HOO, nice nice nice![/b][/quote]
Thanks Lee :))

My babies are a year old now!!!

Sabby:)

Come on, post some hi-res pics of those babies of yours ;-)

You're right hon. They do reach a point to where it just becomes a branding issue. But if branded properly they'll be the first to get any new webmasters that come into the biz as well.

Because they're fresh on everyones mind.

Im not much of an authority when it comes to marketing.. I can only testify from my experience and thoughts..
But regarding branding.. Something I know from being on the "receiving" side.
You mentioned CE. I have an account with CE. Had it for a long time. Didn't do anything with it for a ling time. Until very recentrly when I had some free traffic to push somewhere. So I tried to think where I would send it. And CE popped it mind? Why? I have no idea. I just recall their annoying purple banner I saw somewhere recently.
Now - I wasn't a new webmaster joining their program. I didn't even click the banner. I just went there remembering I had an account and decided to give it another go for a short while.
Would I go there if I didn't see banners of thiers in all kinds of places (that didn't generate clicks from me)? Probably not since I have account with virtually every sponsor out there.
So is it branding?
I think so. Its not even quality driven branding. Just "Stuck in your brain" branding since its not like I "know" they are the best or anything..

Just my 2 cents

True, true.

I think this is a very common experience.

You're right hon. They do reach a point to where it just becomes a branding issue. But if branded properly they'll be the first to get any new webmasters that come into the biz as well.

Because they're fresh on everyones mind.[/b][/quote]
I think for the bigger companies its all about keeping up appearances ... once your banner disappears, everyone wonders what's wrong ...

http://bestxxxtraffic.com/sabtits.jpg


This is my favorite tits shot... I just love this perspective...
PURE ART!!!

Let me dig around for some more... most of my content I shot for the past year I was disguised as a brunette... strangely enough she made a shitload of money... more money than Sabrina ever made (except for on live cam).

hehehe.

(Hooper... I'm sorry for ruining your thread sweetie)

Sabby:)

Sabby feel free to ruin ANY of my threads!!

:D :rolleyes:

Fine line of advertising and branding.... say you set a budget of $10K on board advertising.. you could hire 1 hot ass chick for $4k per month to sit and post all day at those boards... and flirt with the hardons who die for any online chicks attention.. throw on a free button.. and you've just branded yourself and advertised yourself all over... and the funny part is.. they have to know nothing about your business.. just how much weed costs.. what celeb has the best physique... and are these pics of Britney Spears real or fake...

hell she doesn't even have to be hot.. just make an avatar so people thinks she is hot... :agrin:

Better yet, hire some fat ass dude to pretend they are a hot chick for about $200.00 a month.........

:yowsa:

as long as thehun is still around.

:bdance:

Gregtx, go and read the first thread from UnderMySpell. Living proof that hiring a bimbo who doesn't understand your business will eventually do you more harm than good - although she will definately be busy posting photos of her tits because everyone loves fresh meat - but the kind of webmasters who make business choices regarding their traffic based on breasts are not really the kind of webmasters who are going to make your program successful.

Unfortunately most webmaster resources are too stupid to realize their rules make it more viable for a program owner to hire a board whore to sit around and post on every board with a signature than it is to advertise. I liked the old oprano rules of no signature unless you had a link back. It made the banners worth something - now, they are a waste of money as the signatures of all posters are becoming so big.

Gregtx, go and read the first thread from UnderMySpell. Living proof that hiring a bimbo who doesn't understand your business will eventually do you more harm than good - although she will definately be busy posting photos of her tits because everyone loves fresh meat - but the kind of webmasters who make business choices regarding their traffic based on breasts are not really the kind of webmasters who are going to make your program successful.

Unfortunately most webmaster resources are too stupid to realize their rules make it more viable for a program owner to hire a board whore to sit around and post on every board with a signature than it is to advertise. I liked the old oprano rules of no signature unless you had a link back. It made the banners worth something - now, they are a waste of money as the signatures of all posters are becoming so big.[/b][/quote]
Hiya CJ...

I did.. mention advertising vs.. branding... didn't I???

why does anyone use "spokesmodels"??? it gets you noticed...

I understand your argument as well.. but what is the majority here... 30+ year old business people or 18-24 year olds.. with traffic???

and she does not have to become content.. that is what keeps the horndogs coming back.. the fact that someday they might get to see her naked... but just the fact of having a flashing button after every one of her/his replys.. is branding/advertising every time..

I'm still waiting to see your tits



:P

John,
give Hooper a "deal",
promise to keep your mouth shot about all shortcumings of his program
;-)))))

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
i hope you aren't holding your breath!!

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
i hope you aren't holding your breath!![/b][/quote]
i'm blue :ph34r:

Happy one year B-day to your lovely junkyard dogs! You look fabulous.

Its been 4 years since I had my naturals reduced and I hit the ball 30 yards further :-))

Well nobody could ever pay me enough $ to go anywhere near GFY...
And I come to Oprano to learn BUSINESS !

Sabby:)

You know I was going to just drop this whole thing as I don't feel the need to lower myself to your level. The sad thing is that you never took the time to get to know me. If you had you would discover that i'm not some board bimbo. Yes, that's part of the job. Keeping the name in the "news" so to speak. But there is so much more to it than that. If you had taken the time to get to know me you would have found out that I have a Masters degree in Accounting with a Minor in small business adminstration. I took an excellerated program in college to do this and finished out both programs in 5 years.

I dare you to attack my integrity again because I have never been anything but aboveboard about my program. I have the stats from a week ago sitting in front of me so I know how my sites convert. Did you ever stop to think that the reason yours do not is because of the specialized niche. If they were marketed properly I see the potential for them to be huge but i've done some checking around with various webmasters that have never even heard of it. It's a good idea but I guess you just don't have the right marketing person on it to get the name out.

As far as being a pretty little board whore. I'll thank you for the pretty part but board whore I am not. The funny thing of it is if you check any of the boards that I post on I do not have a very high post count even though I have been a member of some of those boards for quite some time. I post when I have something to say. No more...No less.

I originally came to this board at the suggestion of a friend of mine that knows both Serge and his wife. He said that they were both stand up people. That's the kind of boards that I prefer to deal with. I like to look for fresh ideas and sometimes even contribute. If you remember correctly I never touted my program at all. I was asked about what I do. I simply replied to it and that is when the ass chewing began. You can believe the numbers I posted or not. I have access to the numbers to look at them and I know what i'm talking about.

So, if you want to attack my integrity go right ahead. It's only showing how little of a person you are. Maybe you should concentrate more on marketing your own program instead of worrying about what i'm doing and then you might actually get those conversion ratios up and your retention would be better. Oh well, they say jealousy is a form of flattery.

Serge, I still believe you to be a stand up guy and would have never posted this response had I not been tired of the ugly posts. I let it go for far too long without responding to it. I am not now nor will I ever be anybody's punching bag. If you're into that join a gym or find yourself a good niche site for abusers.

Just for the record. The only webmaster to see my tits now and in the future will be my husband.

Oh, and by the way yes this is directed at you CJ I just don't see the need for your rambling quote to be included



Last edited by undermyspell at Jun 28 2003, 07:41 PM

undermyspell... your post is too long, nobody will read...

now go away bimbo ;-))

CAT FIGHT, CAT FIGHT, CAT FIGHT!!!!!!

"..I took an excellerated program in college to do this and finished out both programs in 5 years.."


excellerwhat ??

:lol:

LMAO

well 'undermyspell' if there was ever any doubt in my mind that you were an idiot, that's well and truly gone now!!

I could care less how many college degrees you hold or how intelligent you are. This is an adult webmaster chat board and you came here with blatant bullshit fed to you by a program owner who is stuck in 1996. Webmasters got smarter a couple of years ago, bullshitting them with numbers like those you gave just doesn't work - and the most important thing, you don't HAVE to ... we were all sitting here saying 'wow your sites are awesome' and asking you serious questions and you blew it by not knowing ANYTHING about the product you were sent to promote.

You dare me? Well ... in that case ...
You may have stats sitting in front of you - but they aren't real. Sorry love, but you are being bullshitted too - period. It may be ok to bullshit newbies on the other boards you frequent, but as your boss has informed you, most of the webmasters around here have been running successful programs for many years. You may be converting 1/50 and have a 60% or 5 month average retention (ahem) - but you should try counting every hit instead of just every 10th one, and you have to count those who cancel out of trial in your calculation of retention. Hell, I can make my numbers sound like yours too if I only share half the information!


LOL
yeah that's right genius, marketing is the problem :rollingeyes:
OH MY GOD THERE ARE WEBMASTERS WHO HAVEN'T HEARD OF IT?!?!??! damn, I must be doing something wrong. :rollingeyes:

Actually (and you should write this down), niches usually have a higher success of retention due to the unique content - my women's sites have average 10-20% higher retention than other sites & programs I've run for the entire 5 years I've run them. Unfortunately, credit card processing changes have caused those numbers to drop - not the standard of the sites.

The program has been closed to new webmasters since March - it will open again eventually when I have the time to take care of it. I have run my womens projects for 5 years, they have always provided me with pocket money and enough funds to support my other business ventures - i've been happy for them to stay the size that they are up until recently. They have gone through periods of being extremely successful, and periods of being total failures, usually in tune with the ups and downs in my own life.

I have many other sites, programs and business that keeps me going, & i'm pretty satisfied with what I've achieved ... but thanks for the advice about getting a decent marketing person. Are you available for hire?! :biglaugh:

Sweetie, if you post on a board to promote something, you are a boardwhore. I am a boardwhore, you are a boardwhore, serge is a boardwhore ... if you are offended by that, you don't have a long future in this biz. Wait till the gfy boys start calling you an ugly dumb skanky ho ... no, i'm not calling you that, but using this as an example to show that you need a thick skin to do the job you are doing. We work in porn ... 'boardwhore' is a word I use in official business proposals I give my clients & they love it - its a genuine marketing term for an online promotions person who posts on boards. Wear the title with pride - if you are lucky, you might even get a tshirt!


LMAO
LL is a stand up Gal, but serge ... Ask him, he'll tell you himself :biglaugh:
I am only half kidding - but its no secret how much I love them both. Your friend was right in recommending you visit oprano.

5 webmasters from this board will bring you more traffic than all the other boards you visit added together. But hey, each to their own ...

You only came by to chat? You weren't here to promote your program? :huh:

Obviously you and the truth haven't been introduced yet ... You seem to think we are all stupid. I'd love to chat with you more, i think you have an awesome program - and I do think the sites would convert really well, they are unique, original, designs are hot, content is unique ... so far though, I get the impression that you don't understand the information you are giving us.

But hey, i've been wrong before! I'd love to hear how you achieve the numbers you claim ... maybe you can teach US something!

Or alternatively, you could take this shovel I'm handing you, and keep digging! :okthumb:

What cj said!

Only she did get one thing wrong.... undermyspell is NOT a board whore.... that term is reserved for marketing professionals....

undermyspell is a BOARD BIMBO! ;-)

CJ i think that if we all took a poll - most would agree that their first few posts were incredibly stupid. i am sure we all did the same thing.. we thought about it, we tried to understand what we were about to do, thought through every word, were confident that it was not a really ignorant thing to say... then posted it and got ripped apart.... and realized "oops!"

I dont get some people though... like lying to a cops "uhm... i am just holding that for a friend..." blah blah blah. I think people have to understand at some point that they are trying to bullshit someone who is hearing that same line for the 100th time today.

People really dont seem to understand messageboards before they post on them... the culture, characters and personalities, the friendships, the alliances, the hated, the loved, the good/bad/ugly and who is aligned with who, who does what, who did what, the depth of knowledge and experience they may have, the naivity of ones own lack of knowledge and experience.

Undermynuts, you may want to spend more time reading and less time posting. at least for a while. your program, your company and those around you will benefit and profit much more from knowledge gained, than the bridges burnt by making uninformed and impossible claims to impress people who know better.



Last edited by JR at Jun 29 2003, 12:01 AM

JR, agree totally ... we all went through the stage of opening our mouths and regretting what we say ... most of us still do it on a daily basis :biglaugh:

I remember my newbie days at Ynot clearly ... I rarely posted, I was so shit scared of being ripped apart by serge or being caught in the serge/fm crossfire that I just read the board every day and said Hi occasionally. I had no clue about the industry, didn't even know what conversion meant, but I like to think I was smart enough to listen. I love lurking still, do it every day, always learn something new.

I guess I can't pass up the opportunity to give someone information that nobody else bothered to share ... undermyspell seems really cool, but her information is ... i dunno, am I being really cynical believing that its impossible these days to achieve those numbers? Its a shame that she wasn't more honest because we were all actually looking at the program - which is more than most first time posters can achieve.

HAHAHA my first post on Ynot said something like "Scared shitless of the big dogs the little kitty PK is refusing to list my site because it is listed on Top Dog"...

For some reason that instigated a MAJOR riot ;-))

DAMN!! Women (and JR) are SO verbose!!

This thread, plus I need to set aside an hour to read that 'good wife' thread.