Is this the beginning of of the end for

Roe vs Wade?

are we going back to Dark allies and coat hangers?



:angry:

Do you have a story link Forest? I looked for it and couldn't find it on a couple of news sites - everything is buried with the Elizabeth Smart story (still a miracle that she was found alive! those lucky parents!!!)...

Not to start a debate folks, but Partial Birth Abortion....that's about the only time I jump on the anti-abortion rally car. Otherwise - hey, it's their choice. Not my choice, but I'll stand up for and protect that freedom to choose. But PBAs...that's another story...it just sickens me...

:unsure:

kath

i saw it on Fox new channel

Thanks :)

Will keep looking online...

Partial birth abortions is not that contraversial of an issue - a majority of Americans are against it. a LARGE majority - you can see in the Senate and House which has passed the same bill 4-5 times - a few times Clinton Vetoed it.

This will NOT turn back Roe V Wade ( as a side note RvW is a legal fiction - I think gov't should not tell people what to do, but to say its protected explicitly in Constitution is stupid). However, the liberals and media types will raise all kinds of red flags and use it to raise money and to slam Bush and Republicans. And some of the ignorant amoung us will follow right behind.

Here's a story link. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003Mar13.html

I applaud this move and quite frankly I think it should go further. Only time abortion should be allowed is in the cases of rape, incest, or life of the mother IMHO.

BTW- even if Roe v Wade was overturned in the USSC it would not go away as it would be a state issue and there would be many that would allow it.

Just heard on fox new that this bill DOES NOT include an exclusion if the mothers life is in danger

A woman should have the 'right' to choose for herself. Not the senate, her neighbour or a guy in the local bar.

Just my opinion.

Trev,

I agree with you with one small caveat... does the father deserve any say?

I say this with all due respect and know I'm going to regret it, but I will say it!

I live in the UK… The father rarely has a say… Plus if he fights it and wins when it goes to term he can walk away and leave the mother screwed… hmmm… I say only if the mother has a contract….

Bet we can find at least one guy in all of those that read this board that has walked away from a pregnancy he helped to bring about. It's up to the woman until men can give birth, imo.

Since I don't have a uterus I really shouldn't have a say, but I am pro child, not pro life
A woman should have the choice, sometimes the best choice among many bad ones ... sad but true

But I must say if you believe that the only time abortion should be allowed is in the cases of rape, incest, or life of the mother .....

Maybe you can adopt a few unwanted crack babies

and that's my unsolicited opinion



Edit as English is getting to be my second language



Last edited by Vick at Mar 13 2003, 09:32 PM

Of course... you're a man. It's easy to be absolutely certain of what's "right" when the chances of your ever having to make the choice for yourself are NIL.

I object to the language, "Partial Birth Abortion" when speaking of this particular procedure. It's an inflammatory term coined by the pro-life brigade. The proper medical term is "intact dilation and extraction," and though I don't have hard data in front of me, I'd be surprised if there are ANY doctors who perform this procedure on an elective basis without a clear indication that there's genetic defects in the fetus.

This'll be in the courts for years... it'll never go through without a fight.

I don't have a moral issue with abortion, actually. It's infinitely preferable to the old way of doing things, which was exposure... just have the baby, and if it's sick, or just unwanted, leave it outside til the fairies come for it... or leave it on the steps of the church for someone ELSE to take care of... someone who can AFFORD it -- or put it to work anyway.

woah!!!

:unsure:

do people still think like this?!!??!?!

The father not having a say is a big issue I have. We claim rights to everything, material things, etc... However, its funny, when the most precious thing is given (life) we all act as though only women have a choice in what is the destiny of that child. Whats the old adage - it takes two? If I was with a woman and found out she had an abortion behind my back I would be FURIOUS and rightly so. That child was as much mine as it was hers.

Giving birth is a decision a person makes when they engage in intercourse. If you are not prepared for the consequences of participating in certain activities, don't participate in them. I can't wait for the days of license procreation ;) We'll just continue to breed a society of people who can constantly run away from responsibility. Do as you please, no consequences. We'll also continue to read about children wanting to blow up their schools and kill every living thing in sight. We wonder why things get more 'fucked up' day in and day out?

Oh yeah forgot *putting on my flame-retardant suit* :zoinks:

that's all fine and dandy marc, but I doubt you would be the kind of person who would walk away from his responsibilities ...

making a decision without both parties is apalling, however what would you do if a woman told you she was having an abortion and you didnt agree? have the baby for her?

This is a nice theory, but last time you were having sex, were you thinking about shitty diapers? I can't remember the last time I had sex but I don't think i was thinking about feeding a baby at 4am and giving up my own freedom ...

Our society doesn't promote responsible sexuality, it pushes sex in our face at every given opportunity from an age that's much too young, with very little mention of the reality that *can* be associated with sex.

Rox & Vick, good points in your posts ...

there's way too many unwanted children in this world already, without any more being produced. If you've ever been to a hospital, orphanage or childcare center, you'll see plenty of valid reasons for abortion.

Marc, I agree with 1 part of your post - licensed procreation ;-)
I have always thought it odd that you need a license to drive a car, and yet anyone can legally take responsibility for another human life without an approval process of ANY kind.

I've chosen the career path, because as much as I love children, I definately don't feel that I would be capable of doing a very good job raising one. I'll make a decision on what's best for *me* should I ever fall pregnant, because in the long run, its my life.

'abortion' decisions can't be addressed as a moral issue or as one that society is responsible for making ... every case is different ... some people use abortion to avoid taking responsibility for their actions, but most don't.

this one has no right answer.

let's go back to talking about circumcision

:D

cj - we don't have to think of dirty diapers when we are pleasing our desires because we have options. Lets have fun and be irresponsible with our behavior and hell, if we get pregnant, we'll just cut it out, LITERALLY.

You are right, there are no right answers to this and its unfortunate that we feel our own 'personal' freedoms should come before that of a life we create.

I recall a conversation I had with my current fiance, mother of my son and 5 months pregnant with our 2nd son - I said to her, you realize if we have a sexual relationship that we could get pregnant. Are you prepared for that? If we do get pregnant, are you ready to have a child and take care of it? That is responsible thinking, and you are right again cj, we are not taught responsible behavior (again choice makes that education VERY difficult).

I hate thinking about this subject. I hate the thought of a beautiful little child being killed by irresponsible adults but I also cringe at the thought of having yet ANOTHER burden to society brought into the world. I truthfully feel that if a woman would consider having an abortion she really shouldn't be a mother anyways (she'll probably just create a delinquent).

Sad sad world :(

Oh boy.. knew I wouldn't escape this one unscathed but I think Marc De pretty much summed up what I believe pretty well. Being adopted gives me one hell of an appreciation of the decision my parents madse when they had me.

I was nodding along until this sentence:


>> I truthfully feel that if a woman would consider having an abortion she really shouldn't be a mother anyways (she'll probably just create a delinquent).


wow, where to start on this one ... you just insulted a whole bunch of women who have considered this option along with the many other decisions that come from a MISTAKE. I'm sure someone else will tackle this one, you just opened up someone else's emotional torment with this blanket statement ... your on your own here ;-)

all processes of abortion are awful ... salting, scraping and drowning the *thing* out of the mother. there's no pretty way to do it ... but you emotionalize (new word) the process by saying this:

>>I hate the thought of a beautiful little child being killed by irresponsible adults

you raise visuals of grown and formed *children* running around and playing in the yard ... we all shriek at the thought of that child being killed.

nobody is killing a child ... this is a foetus, barely formed and (debatable) incapable of feeling pain (in the way we interpret it).

in many cases it takes *MORE* responsibility to say "I can't have this baby" than it does to do what you are told to do by society. If you think that the woman making this choice is simply irresponsible, then you should look at some cases where abortion SHOULD HAVE been the choice. You have children, and I'm sure they are the absolute pride of your life, but you have squillions of dollars ... you aren't in a position where you can make a judgement on a women who has been deserted by the father of her children and is left to get by on welfare. again, blanket choice for a not blanket situation.

you are using extreme's to make your case such as this:

>>Lets have fun and be irresponsible with our behavior and hell, if we get pregnant, we'll just cut it out, LITERALLY.

this is one argument against abortion that is valid, however, the amount of people in society who do this is comparable to how many alcoholics exist in a society where alcohol is legal to consume in any volume. there are certain people who should be sent to the desert and shot because they can't live their lives responsibly ... but that's not enough to make a case overall for every other persons choices.

Partial Birth Abortion Google Search

3 news articles at the top from the last 8 hours



the procedure is barbaric .......... but so is childbirth!!!

cj - how have I insulted a woman by saying if she is going to have an abortion she probably (key word) isn't fit to be a mother. If she didn't WANT to be a Mom why would it be insulting that she isn't FIT to be a Mom??? Its my opinion, I have lots of them and I'm sure they are contradictory to many of other opinions :)

Just because I have a lot of money doesn't mean I would be a good parent or am fit to be. My mother raised my sister and I on minimal amounts of cash. We turned out just fine :) Money doesn't equal good parent...

I never said I agree with alcoholics either. Just because a bunch of idiots get drunk and act like morons doesn't give a valid excuse for people to be irresponsible sexually and simply abort a baby. I don't agree with any irresponsible behavior. I'm a minority, its sad :)

Truthfully - I'm not prepared to argue anything here. I do have opinions but I'm not firm on really any stance of choice and life. I just wish I lived in a world where people acted like intelligent beings and most of these issues didn't have to be faced. Like I said, its hard to find any 'right' answer :) Of course that isn't reality.

For those who took offense to anything I said, please don't. This emotional topic isn't meant to make anyone feel bad. I just hate the thought life being terminated at any point and I also hate the thought of everyone enforcing their thoughts and views on my life so I understand the opposite arguement :)

In closing - be responsible, think ahead, realize that life usually lasts a lot longer than this moment and your actions now can and will affect the life of yours AND OTHERS in the future...

Distrubing images but worth a look if you think all abortions are just removing lifeless sensory deprived hunks of flesh

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/ab...mages/index.htm

Not sure what Partial Birth Abortions are go here

http://www.priestsforlife.org/partialbirth.html

great summary marc ;-)



i've looked at enough abortion information in my life to be over the shock of seeing the procedures outlined with diagrams and photographs. its presented to make you feel this way ...

but, the world is pretty fucked up all round ... we argue about the right to give or take life away from an unborn foetus, and then we go and blow shit up with big bombs that are designed to kill as many lives as possible in 1 go.

if we all spent every day focused on the pain of issues that we don't need to deal with personally, we'd all be in mental instutions. our own lives are hard enough, without taking on the burden of what's right and wrong for someone else's life.

Yeah what she said! well put CJ

I disagree with SO MUCH of what has been said here that it turns my stomach.

I am amazed at the ignorance of some people.

Political chatter on a business board is a terrible idea.

Nobody ever walks away with more traffic.



Last edited by Hooper at Mar 14 2003, 01:41 AM

Hooper, you've turned my stomach lots of times with your opinions ...

I seem to remember discussing this exact issue (message board behaviour) in person ... are you changing your view now that you don't agree with someone else's opinions?!

so a message board 'character' or 'opinion' is damaging to ones business now, but not when you do it?

Now, here is my take on why this is all so funny:

The same people who want to ban all abortions are the same ones who don't support welfare and a social safety net - they want the government to force women to have the kids you can's support, can't medically handle, or the product of rape - but these same people don't want to government to HELP these people afterwards.

I don't want to get into a political discussion, but man, I find that just so two faced.

My opinion on abortion is none of anyone's business. Don't take my above comments to suggest for or against - just pointing out a stupid contridiction that exists.

Alex

I think that the simple FACT that everyone is so divided and passionate about their own individual feelings with regard to this subject is reason - and proof! - enough for it to remain an individual case-by-case, human being-by-human being CHOICE. Whether I agree with abortion or not on a personal "for me" level - I support that freedom of choice for everyone else.

My only objection was to this exact procedure itself. Perhaps I'm just not informed enough about it - or maybe my disgust and horror at it is because of hearing too much of one side. Who knows? Whatever the reason this is my opinion and the one I will stand by.

This is the line that _I_ draw in the sand. The one that I will stand by. We all have our own limits. This one is mine.

Abortion. We could debate all of the millions of arguments FOR or AGAINST it that always come with this type of discussion till the cows come home. But when it comes right down to it it's not about right or wrong - it's about an individual and that individual's right to make the personal choices and decisions that will affect the rest of their life. It's not up to me. It's not up to you. It's totally up to that individual.

hmmm, well, recently, after my much anticipated, and deserved night
with a girl that involved sex rather than conversation, she came to me
a month later telling me she was pregnant and that she was probably
going to get an abortion. I told her, not to, if she didnt want it, or anything
to do with me, to have the baby, and Ill take it. For about a month, she
didnt want to talk about it, but recently she disclosed that she aborted
it against my decision, HERSELF, in the bathroom. I didnt get a say in
the matter, really, is this right? I dont think so, but what can a guy do?

hmmm, well, recently, after my much anticipated, and deserved night
with a girl that involved sex rather than conversation, she came to me
a month later telling me she was pregnant and that she was probably
going to get an abortion. I told her, not to, if she didnt want it, or anything
to do with me, to have the baby, and Ill take it. For about a month, she
didnt want to talk about it, but recently she disclosed that she aborted
it against my decision, HERSELF, in the bathroom. I didnt get a say in
the matter, really, is this right? I dont think so, but what can a guy do?[/b][/quote]
You are a small percentage of the male condition though, you must admit that in your own mind that you know 98% of other men would just walk away...

In my opinion just because the guy fertilized the egg (like it takes much) doesn't give him any rights or claim to the child until it's a 100% living breathing entity.

But who the fuck am I any way <_<

Actually, I dont have to admit anything, :-)
however, you are correct in the fact that
most men would walk away. BUT, just like
anything else, the good people have to
suffer as a result of some irresponsible
fuckheads.
Make no mistake though, if I had walked
away, and she would have had the baby,
dont think for one minute she wouldnt
have came after me.

Where is MY justice???

In issue's like this there is non :cryin:

Alex,

I didn't see this at all. Care to point any out?

"....ban all abortions and who don't support [any] welfare."

Seemed to me that most ppl were on the side of individual choice, even if they had questions or comments about the rights of the father, certain types of abortion, etc.

When you say the "same people" who are you talking about?

Wig,

I think Alex was talking more about the whole anti-abortion political group, not Opranauts. I'm inclined to agree with his observation.

I've had occasion to argue with some of those folks, and while they're talking out of one side of their mouth saying that no woman should ever have an abortion for any reason, out of the other side of their mouth they'll bitch that the barren among them are "forced" to adopt children from other countries because in the US there are no "desirable" babies to adopt.

Of course, I had to press the issue and ask if "desirable babies" equates to "white infants." Of course it does, and going further, these people want HEALTHY (as in not born of a crack-addicted mother) white infants. Considering that most non-addicted, healthy white mothers are more likely to continue a pregnancy and then KEEP their babies, it's not a surprise that there's a shortage of available healthy white infants.

I find it even more ironic that most of these people who find it unconscienable for a woman to "play God" by deciding to end a pregnancy have no problem whatsoever with the people who "play God" by going through fertility treatments; some of whom end up bearing LITTERS of children as a result... and more often than not those kids are sickly all their lives, needing medical treatment and special care that goes beyond what their parents can afford. So the next thing we know, the rest of us are bearing some of the financial burden either through higher insurance premiums or taxes. If "God" had wanted those people to have children, they would have been able to without the intervention of science. And if they weren't so selfish and egocentric, they'd adopt an unwanted child who had a shot at a long healthy life instead of birthing a litter of kids whose lives are likely to be rife with medical problems.

I've seen abortion foes come right out and advocate forced sterilization or forced contraception for "welfare moms," because they're "tired of paying for the irresponsible decisions of other people." And I have to laugh at the hypocrisy.

None of us really WANTS our hard-earned money to help pay for something we don't believe in. The anti-abortion people don't want theirs to help women terminate their pregnancies at any stage. I don't want mine to help infertile couples spit out litters of kids whose quality of life is negatively impacted by the circumstance of their gestation. But that's the way things are set up, so we have to take the bad with the good.

I'd love to see the day come when there's no need to fight over whether abortion should be legal or not because people will be sufficiently educated in how to prevent an unwanted pregnancy that there will be little or no need for surgical terminations. But until and unless there's a big change in education, and RU-486 and the morning after pill are widely available, there's need for women to have access to safe and legal abortions; otherwise we're back to coathangers, back-alley "specialists" and babies in trash cans. I'll take a leap of faith and say that NOBODY wants to see that.

Have to agree with Vick's line of thinking... No Uterus, no vote after the deed is done... Once your sperm leaves your willie, sorry gentlemen, possession is 9/10ths of the law as they say...

Now, men DO have a choice. If they are worried about lossing a potential child, they can keep their dicks out of vaginas that are inclined to choose abortion. That particular ditty should be discussed before hand; don't go asking for male rights afterwards because you didn't broach the topic pre-coitus.

The burning question IMO is do these same pro-lifers weep for the billions of poor sperm lost every morning while men shower before work??? Or are they like PETA and against Monkey Spanking?

PS: CJ- Sorry you couldn't remember last time you had sex... will do better next time... :nyanya:



Last edited by XXXPhoto at Mar 14 2003, 05:47 AM

Good point CJ...

definitely a passionate issue.

My mother, being the Southern Baptist that she is, is VERY anti-abortion, carries a fetus in her pocketbook for shock value, pickets clinics, etc. One of her cohorts has 7 kids (and is still popping them out) and I asked why they didn't adopt some of these kids of the mothers that they are trying to talk out of abortions. "Because they don't know the backgrounds of those babies. They want their OWN kids!" And she said it with a serious face. Incredible. :(

Since I'm doomed to the Christian Hell anyway, I'll go ahead and admit that the first visual this gave me, of a pickled fetus in a jar, made me laugh and be grossed out at the same time.



Indeed, it boggles the mind.

Wig, my point is this:

There is a big block of the anti-abortion people that are also what could be classified as "conservative" and / or "christian" - they tend to vote republican...

republican / conservative views on welfare and public support basically can be summed up by saying "no, you can't take my money and give it to lazy no good people who won't work".

In other words, "You can't have an abortion, and we won't help you out after you have the kid (that you didn't want, couldn't afford, shouldn't have, medicially probably shouldn't have, was raped and impregnated, etc)".

Guys should never get a vote in this one - sorry, but guys just don't have the same maternal connection to a child that a woman does. We don't have this thing growing in us, we don't experience birth, we don't nurse the child... we don't have to put up with the physical and emtional changes that come with having children. We do five minutes of manual labor and walk away... that isn't enough to qualify you for a veto.

Alex

I used to be ardently pro-life, viewing abortion as the ultimate abuse of power by the godlike over the helpless.

But then I realized that abortion was a form of Darwinism, so now I encourage it.

not only is he content but he is witty tooo

:agrin:

And I sometimes wear my socks inside out when I'm feeling really crazy!

dont sit next to me at the next dinner


your too weird

:unsure:

On your feet or .....
Never mind I don't think I want to know :P

I've heard that in the UK, a mother can perform a retroactive abortion up until the kid reaches 5 years old. True?

Probably as much so as some of what is being said about this decision...

Care to elaborate?