http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/28/...ence/index.html

The two largest supporters of terrorism, maybe number 2 and 3 after our "friends" in Saudi Arabia

:zoinks: :zoinks: :zoinks:

i so badly want Saudi Arabia to finally have to pay for their treachery.
more than Iraq - Hussein, al Quaeda, are puppets.

The Western world's biggest shame is that it hasn't come up with an alternative form of fueling our cars and industry. All the fucking billions wasted in the dotcom gold goldrush - put all that money into research and you'd have a substitute for oil and probably a cure for cancer.

There are already reliable alternatives for oil, yet the large oil companies are not too happy about giving up their position so we won't see alot of cars using these techniques for a while.


John
BigCash.com

John, there won't be any real replacement for oil while you have a "big oil" president in the whitehouse. All of the money being tossed at alternative fuel development is just a cover for not taking more direct action.

If you want to lower fuel consumption, tax gasoline higher, and give a tax break back to companies based on their actual fuel consumption. That would raise income for the government, lower fuel use (how many of you would drive your 10 mpg SUVs when you are paying $3 a gallon for gas?), and would lower overall fuel consumption by quite a bit. Right now, the cost of gas in the US is lower than almost anywhere in the world, including a number of the producing nations. That just isn't right, especially faced with crumbling road infrastructure.

More importantly, alternative fuels and electrification has to be looked at as a "total" system. Gasahol is one of the funniest things ever, because it takes almost twice as much energy 130,000 btus to generate a gallon of 77,000 btu gasahol. It's a loss system from the word go, you might as well burn whatever gave you the 130,000 btus to start with! Electrification is a joke, because the cars are being charged up, after losses for transmission and generation, by oil, coal, and natural gas in most cases. So in fact, all you have is a feel good situation that uses more energy and generates more pollution, not less.

The greatest gains in fuel economy can be made in the next 10 years by weaning people away from their gas hogs and into more reasonable vehicles... and allowing the rich to drive what they like, providing they are willing to pay for it.

Alex

Wrong country, Alex. I think you got confused there for a second.

RawAlex, why stop at $3/gallon? Why don't we make it $10/gallon? Oh wait, I forgot, lettuce would go from .39 a head to $4 because trucks run on gas as well. But I guess only rich people buy lettuce so it's ok. :rolleyes:

Alex - that is the worst idea you've ever had!!
It would cause spiraling inflation of proportions no one can even imagine

The inflation of the 70's was a direct result of increasing oil prices

Ah... why isn't it right - because you have to pay more living in Canada

This comes back to a real problem I have
The rest of the world in their short sighted vision want the USA to live down to their standards instead of trying to live up to the USA standards of living

Sorry, one Canadian does not a Canada make. :awinky:

Our gas isn't THAT much more expensive....you are talking like we are paying 5x what you are...just isn't so...

Not to mention that I don't see our 'higher taxes' causing the Canadian market to "spiral inflation of proportions no one can even imagine"

Lastly, you are assuming that the 'American Way' is the best way....the 'highest' standards...For me as a Canadian, I know we have problems, but dayam, I love living in Canada....our 'Standards' are pretty high if I do say so myself.....in fact, in some ways Canadian standards surpass American standards. [Ex: FDA approval is higher here]





Last edited by gigi at Jan 29 2003, 01:27 PM

Vick you hit on the number #1 reason why there is so much discord with the US in the world. Simple jealously. It is ashame, that lots of people in foreign lands are jealous and instead of working hard to be the land of plenty like the US, want to take it away so we can go down like them.

This is the liberal philosophy - bring everything down to lowest common denominator. That is why liberals want to tax the rich at huge rates, lower education standards in public schools, etc.. etc.... all they do is lower everyones standard of living rather then working hard to raise other peoples.

I read a long article about prsperity amoungst countries. Back when the US fought the war of Independence - the US was a poor 2nd world country. Yet within 120 years or so, we became a power house. Was this because of internalional aid? is this because countires gave us money/aid? Was there a world bank and other things like this to help us get a leg up?

As Terry Tate, the PAIN TRAIN would say " HELL NO!!" What allowed us to become a world power and grow from a third world poor country to first world is FREEDOM, LIBERTY, PROPERTY RIGHT, CONTRATUAL RIGHT that are enforced by fair LEGAL SYSTEM, free market economics, and of course the Gov't not interfering and taxing people to death and trying to control their lives!

So all you people who live in snd rate Nations - I suggest you hit the streets and try and get your gov't to stop being so socialist, and understsdn the above concepts.

OF course the problem is, the United States has forgotten its past, and its formula to success - at least the democratic party, and other liberal groups have and they work hard everyday for the US to become more like the rest of the world.... lowering OUR standards!

I giggle every time I see someone write this.... :nyanya:

If the approval is higher, then your standards aren't as strict :awinky:

GiGi, I would giggle if they weren't all that serious about it.

Vick, low fuel prices in the US are artificial, and they hurt your economy more than you can imagine. They hit you in the pocket book as well, you just don't know it.

How many federal tax dollars are spent per year for roads (just highways!)? How much does that cost each taxpayer? Gas taxes shift the burden from taxpayers to road users - and collects taxes from all those visitors that come to your country each year - millions of tourists, driving rental cars, helping to pay for the roads that they travel on for free.

Inflation is a non-issue, because the total costs for roads won't move, just the burden - in the end, the same money is collected, possibly from different people. As a "user pays" type tax, it is exactly the sort of thing the non-socialists are interested in. Instead of everyone pays, it becomes the end user pays.

Yes, you would see some price increases for shipped goods - but there would also be more money in the pockets of americans as the tax rate drops to reflect the lower budger requirements of the roads... collection an extra couple of billion on one side, you can drop the public's taxes by a couple of billion on the other side.

More importantly for all you "well to do americans", you can continue to enjoy your big cars, SUVs, and other trappings of the american way without issue, you rights are not being cut off.... your standard of living isn't being dropped...

Isn't "user pays" a Conservative pillar?

Alex

If the approval is higher, then your standards aren't as strict :awinky:[/b][/quote]
You know what I mean.....smart ass. :awinky:

You know what I mean.....smart ass. :awinky:[/b][/quote]
Hmm, I guess I should reword that eh? lol

There are many drugs that have approval down in the US that don't have approval here. The approval process is much more rigorous here.

Better? lol

You know what I mean.....smart ass. :awinky:[/b][/quote]
This is actually becoming quite an issue here in the states because people here are crossing the border to buy prescription drugs for less. Not only are they crossing the border, but they're buying over the internet AND now store fronts have opened where you can walk in and order it via mail order. Apparently, and of course, this could be drug company propaganda, your FDA ISN'T as strict as ours and what comes out of Canada could be different than what's bought in the states.

I've not seen proof of this, and my insurance covers most of my $400-500+ month migraine crap bought here that it wouldn't pay for in Canada, so I haven't really followed it. The Big Bad Pharmaceutical Companies could be spewing BS :headwall:

That may be true for SOME drugs, but I know you guys can buy codeine OTC, whereas we can't and I was buying Claritin OTC in Canada 7+ years ago, and it just went OTC here in the states about a month ago :(

What hasn't passed FDA there that's sold here?

Being American and buying drugs here in Canada beecause they are cheaper doesn't mean our version of the FDA doesn't have higher standards....of course there are going to be lots of drugs that are approved in both countries.

What I was saying is that some drugs you guys can get down there, you can't get up here because they weren't approved.

So Vick,
Acknowledging the fact that many Americans come to Canada to buy their prescription drugs, do you think the US should lower the cost of the drugs to keep up with the 'high standards' they implement for their citizens?

Well, I'll answer that I don't think the US government should tell any company how much they should and shouldn't be able to charge for something :zoinks:

I DO think that the patent process for prescription drugs has gotten way out of hand, and that needs to be revamped to allow for more competition.

That may be true for SOME drugs, but I know you guys can buy codeine OTC, whereas we can't and I was buying Claritin OTC in Canada 7+ years ago, and it just went OTC here in the states about a month ago :(

What hasn't passed FDA there that's sold here?[/b][/quote]
Actually, you can't buy Codeine OTC here...you need a prescription....it's far too addictive to be OTC....

Claritin, I really don't know much about....

I'll research a few drugs that you can't get here, but you can there....some diet drugs come to mind....

Re drugs

Canada has a lot of generic drugs.

for generic read patent infringing drugs allowed by the Gov't

HAHA, I suppose this is true....you can get lots of different generic drugs here for much cheaper than their brand names....lol

I didn't equate it to patent infringing though...lol....interesting.

They must have stopped selling the codeine OTC - I bought Tylenol #3 about 5-6 few years ago in Toronto. Codeine's great for my migraines, but tears my stomach up :(

I'd be interested in what you find out as far as what's sold here and not there - I've always heard we have the strictest prescription drug policies almost anywhere.

Ermm...just to get back to the true topic:

http://united.republican.com/un.html

Wow....any thoughts on that article?

Alex - maybe you should consider a career in American politics - obviously you are better versed in American economics than I

In your first post you didn't explain wanted to shift the tax burden (paying) from all to road users (in a manner of speaking)
2 problems -
A -in the USA everyone is a road user - even if you don't own or use a vehicle, trucks had to move the food you buy and so on and so forth, so federal taxes for highway projects are fair and just

B - let's suppose your plan went into effect - what happens when Jerry Joe Billy Bob Ho the independent truck driver has to pay more TODAY for his fuel (he can't wait for the lower federal tax - be it in his weekly pay or at the end of the year)
He has to raise his prices, then George Grocer has to raise his prices, then to buy food Jerry Joe Billy Bob Ho the independent truck driver has to raise his prices again and so on and so forth - this is an over simplification but you get the idea

Gigi - with all due respect .... "the 'American Way' is the best way....the 'highest' standards"
Take a look around the world, the American way and model has proven itself to be the best ... We as American live in the most prosperous society to date and have the higest standard of living (material wise)

for the most part Canada has the same standard of living from what I have seen (in fact the cities I saw in Canada were cleaner) , products and good may be a little less expensive in the USA but Canada has Health Care (of some sort) for all

I am just so tired of America Bashing
Again please allow me to reiterate - live how you want, but leave American's to do the same (and I don't want to hear about what America does effects everyone, get with the program)

More to support this topic.

UNITED NATIONS - Iraq is in line to take over as chairman of the U.N. Conference on Disarmament in May, prompting one U.S. official Wednesday to say: "The irony is overwhelming."

HAHAHAHA

Richard Grenell, spokesman for U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte, issued the comment as officials realized Iraq was in line for the rotating post. India now holds it and will be followed by Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland and Israel as countries take the job in alphabetical order.
U.N. spokesman Fred Eckhard said on Tuesday that the choice of conference leaders is "a purely automatic rotation by alphabetical order" with five or six conference presidents each year, each serving a term of about four weeks.

Vick, your assumptions on Billy Bob are wrong for two reasons: You wouldn't flick the switch HARD OVER in one shot, and second, you would try to exempt or lower the taxes on diesel fuel used by most trucking companies. You might not tax them quite as hard at the start, in a more sliding scale situation to avoid the situation you discuss...

According to one souce I found online, the US consumed in 1999 160,441 million gallons of gas. As a result of that, a 1 cent per gallon tax (not a big number) would generate 1.6 billion dollars for the government. 10 cents a gallon (not outside of normal price swings) would be 16 billion dollars. Then you turn around and give a credit back for every individual tax payer in the US - say about $100 each. Each year, add 10 cents per gallon (say 1 center per month, skip a couple of months each year) and cut taxes by $100. do that for 8 years. Suddenly, everyone is paying $800 less in direct taxes... and you have a good deterent to gas guzzling cars.

This is a Bush style idea: more money in everyone's pockets to spend, which will pump up the economy.

Just a thought, ya know?

Alex

editted for a typo



Last edited by RawAlex at Jan 29 2003, 09:37 PM

Damn Alex, give the entire plan the first time :P

I don't know if the credit back equals the new taxes taken in?
We are both for budget cutting to enable tax cuts

It's a nice idea, still not sure of the practicality of it

We're really not on topic now, but what the heck...

The idea is to do things are both revenue neutral and lead to "better habits". A 10% reduction in US fuel consumption (an increase of about 2 mpg if current usage stays the same) would make a huge difference in the economy of oil. It might even drive the price back down to the same level as before, net after new taxes... :-)

Seriously, too much of the current conflict can be traced to the amount of oil in the region... to power the high flying lifestyle of the west.

Alex

All the conjecture over one person's reference to an urban legend (reliable substitute for oil)...

Torone,

What do you think about "a reliable substitute for oil"?

Gasoline Tax,

This whole discussion does not hold water

More than 50% of the price of gas in the US is already taxes.

The low price of gas in the US is not too little taxes, it is that we have refineries, we make the stuff here.

It is the same reson that living in NJ (where we have several refineries) I pay less for my gas than my mother living in central PA.

As far as Canada having health care, you can keep it, I never want to be told I am too old to get the care I need. (This is not made up - I personally know people from up north that have had this happen to family members)

I do however agree that we should be looking for alternate sources of energy, that would be the most crippling blow to the terrorist nations, make their only export as valuable as water.

oldjeff, sorry, I live within 10 miles of a number of refineries, and my gas prices ain't that low... part of it because our gas prices tend to include more taxes to handle the cost of the roads (in theory).

In my neck of the woods (nice woods) you don't see all that many suburbans and such... alot of minivans, decent size cars, etc. That is because we pay over $2 US a gallon for gas. The price of gas has a direct affect on the amount used, no?

Guess what? Canada has the fastest growing economy of all the g7 (G8) nations. Go figure.

Alex

Is there federal level funding for roads in the US? I thought that was a state responsibility. I pay for the use of our roads everyday here. Toll booths. No big deal.

As a matter of fact, the roads seem excellent here. You all have potholes where you live or something?

Yes Colin there is federal funding for road projects ....


Truthfully after thinking for about 12 seconds I have a better plan

The USA just takes over the middle east and we have cheap oil

Come on, truth be told the middle east has been a trouble spot for thousands of years - even Europe was able to get it together (sort of) in the last few centuries

No doubt that the world would be a MUCH BETTER place with the USA controlling the middle east

and those are the facts courtesy of your local UGLY AMERICAN

Vick, aside from a few pissed of Arabs, it's a good plan.

Colin: Roads are basically a state reponsibility, but the federal government actually spends most of the money, through grants to state agencies to get the work done. Search for "Federal Highway Funds".

Alex

Who took my friend Raw Alex and put this sensible person in his place!!!! :blink: :wacko: :scans:

Jokes like that aren't funny
Now I have to go :stout: :hic: