I was wondering how you would say a war was justified.

My brief thoughts on few

WW1 last of the empiratical wars , not justified.
WW2 stopping of an aggressive looney. Justified.
Korea - half assed war , not justified
Vietnam - ok...........
First Iraq war..invaded a soveriegn nation and refused to leave , justified.
Falklands - people invaded by Argentina against there will , justified.

Just jotting down these notes makes you realise how fucked up it all is..

ie , in WW2 we outta continued and fought against Stalin...didn't
Should have taken out Saddam at the end of Iraq/Kuwait war...didn't

The current war in Iraq is totally in my book unjustifiable.

It is being waged without the consent of the majority opf nations.
Iraq invaded no soveriegn nation.
There was no threat (WMD did not exist.Bush jumped the gun on weapons inspectors I beleive cause he knew it)
9/11 terrorist were not from Iraq , but were predominately Saudis.

So why the fuck are foriegn troops dying in Iraq?

Yeah..."oil"...well fuck , should have blamed the Saudis for 9/11 and ganked there shit.

the US is borrowing 2 billion a day from the rest of the world to keep its economy afloat. Mostly from China. Everyone has a vested interest in helping the US economy, because the US owes everyone bucket loads of money. If the US economy goes under, everyone stands to lose. But we must give US consumers every increasing amounts of imported product to buy...to keep the economy from collapsing, so the deficit will always grow.

With that being said, there is still a massive opportunity to make money from war, for the larger US corporations. Most of which give huge amounts of money to keep republicans in power. So the guv'ment gives them big contracts to feed soldiers abroad, rebuild nations after they have been demolished by weapons built by other corporations, rebuild oil pipelines, syphon oil (illegally), you name it. All in the name of giving the gift of peace. You see many media stories of happy Iraqi's these days? Wonder why?

Frankly I am amazed that anyone believed the bullshit the president said about going to war, given that no-one else outside the US supported his bullshit reasoning.

Media is the reason that war is executed. Media gives attention (and diverts it from other more pressing issues domestically), and media glorifies the war (imbedding journalists within the theatre of war). Media makes the war justified, because the US media is owned by government allies. If you see nothing but glorification of the war "effort" you might eventually be braindead enough to believe that you live in the greatest nation under god, delivery "peace" bomb by dirty bomb.

War has always been about power and greed many in the name of religion, many in the name of peace.


The question is, will you be a pitcher or a catcher ?

I do not believe in this war, or in this administration.
I believe that isolantiost regimes, and or world domination has always led to the downfall of the agressor.

However I do believe that war is an inevitable reality that has been with us since we shaved the monkey hair from our faces for darwin on the gallipigos islands.

Human nature is unchangable ( or animalistic dominat survives) you pick

The reality is that one must prepare to fight in order to not have to fight.

I believe the saying goes " Live to train, train to fight, fight to live"

in modern times many have tried to equilize the world by laws that opress the strong or the defenders. However at the end of the day

He who controls the gold controls the world, and he who controls the strength controls the gold.

I think that is antiquated.

In order for us to survive we will have to learn to live together , peacefully and on a global level.

If not we will all go the way of the dodo.

who shows first ?

The current war is unjustified, Bush went after oil using 9/11 and WMD. Blair was more than happy to support this farce but it’s too late for anyone to say anything now, the troops have been placed in harms way and some have died. More will die, yet both nations re-elected both state heads!

I did then and do now fully back going into Iraq but only because I’d rather be hung as someone who sticks to his views instead of a low down skin shedder.

ahahahahahahahha

Or as is more commonly known as "stubborn"

Someone who despite finding a course of action is unsafe and unsound continues with it?

Ok......

(if we still used the ""mouth of morons"" section I'd nominate that post "war was unjustified"..."still support it ")

ahahahahahahahahahaha



"I don't think that stove is hot" (puts hand on it - it is , refuses to take off hand and suffers 3rd degree burns) " Nope it wasn't""

Dude could you build some free hosts for me , I know they won't make any money , but hey I DID think they would and I'll be damned if I'll change my mind.

ahahahahahahahahahahahaha

(I'm crying laughing at yr post still ,Trev)

ahahahahahahahhahahaha

who shows first ? [/b][/quote]
Switzerland.


"""Everyone put down your guns or the stashed money gets it....""""

:ph34r:

I'm glad I brought a smile to your face :)


I'm not being stubborn, if I was I'd still insist we went into Iran, Saudi, Korea and all the others I listed in MikeAI's first thread on this over a year ago...

Shit!!

I must be stubborn because I still do insist :(

:)

hippy;)

idealism is nice, thats why its called "ideal". broad stroke statements like that are easy to spit out a dozen a minute, but really mean nothing when applied to the real world.

to apply broad stroak qualification of wars is inherently bad logic. you are judging them in hindsight, after all, so it is easy to sound byte the validity of a war effort. The conflict and future conflicts in the middle east will be judged the day it is all said and done, in hindsight. Preemtive action, in business and in war, is sometimes the best strategy. anyone who can look at the middle east over the last 50 years cannot honestly say this wasn't coming down the barrel since day 1. peace efforts were exhausted long ago, strategic positioning for the coming decades is necessary, though not pretty. The situation has gone downhill at at an ever increasing pace, the next 5 decades would be exactly the same.

As for people in the middle east hating the US. it is not possible for them to hate us more now. they have hated the US since the formation of israel, the putting of US bases in saudi arabia, kuwait, etc. these were unavoidable problems due to the instability and actions of middle eastern nations.

Sure, the reason for going to war was wrong. the American people were most likely lied to, or at the very least the government played the fool in the intelligence communities leading to bad decision making. but to sit on the outside and cluck at the effort now is a dumb attitude. Since hindsight has shown the reasons for going to war to have not come to be, we should discount the good that has come of it (directly and indirectly)? come on.

"war is the natural state of man" - i believe that you can't possibly align the interests of all those in power (or who would take power), of all countries, of all economies, of all religions and of all cultures to have lasting peace.

peace has always been the single greatest cause of war.

Yeah .

People wanting a little peice of this or a little peice of that country :)


And Grimm,

Firstly , look man just mellow your ruining my vibe , and secondly, what good has come out of the war in Iraq?

Yeah .

People wanting a little peice of this or a little peice of that country :)


And Grimm,

Firstly , look man just mellow your ruining my vibe , and secondly, what good has come out of the war in Iraq? [/b][/quote]
free elections for one, and not just in iraq. pressure on syria, Iran, etc. lybia forgoing its nuclear program, and more to come for sure. 1500 lost lives is nothing to be happy about, but compared to conflicts around the world, isnt much more than a drop in the bucket.

free elections for one, and not just in iraq. pressure on syria, Iran, etc. lybia forgoing its nuclear program, and more to come for sure. 1500 lost lives is nothing to be happy about, but compared to conflicts around the world, isnt much more than a drop in the bucket. [/b][/quote]
Pressure I agree...

ADDING to the pressure in the long run.....

100s of thousand of Muslims who despise the US and everything western with a hatred the west can only imagine.

That in itself is no big deal , but give that hatred the will power and intent to do something about it , thats dangerous in the long run.

The United States has recruited far more than Bin Laden ever could of what to the west are terrorists and to themselves are freedom fighters.

The war isn't won.

All thats happened is the first few skirmishes seem to have gone ok.

Wait for the coming years.

The United States is to diplomacy what I am too kind treatment of surfers.

So using the same lofgc , if you are going to war ,go to fucking war

Lets say the war was unsound , lets say it wasn't smart , but its gonna be continued with.

If thats the case , when you get them down , don't let the fuckers get back up.

The US has a habit of quitting just before they have actually won.

Vietnam , Korea..etc etc...

If the will of the people is to finish this war , then fucking finish it.

Shoot a few of the cunts.

Shit on the fucking Koran.,If someone complains.Shoot the fucker. Then shoot 5 of his relatives.

Its a war.Remove the journos.

:)

Yeah .

People wanting a little peice of this or a little peice of that country :)
[/b][/quote]


the scary truth about the humanity is that i could have more success organizing people to murder on a large scale than you could in organizing people for world peace.

care to wager anything on that? i need a new hobby.

hippy;)

idealism is nice, thats why its called "ideal". broad stroke statements like that are easy to spit out a dozen a minute, but really mean nothing when applied to the real world.

to apply broad stroak qualification of wars is inherently bad logic. you are judging them in hindsight, after all, so it is easy to sound byte the validity of a war effort. The conflict and future conflicts in the middle east will be judged the day it is all said and done, in hindsight. Preemtive action, in business and in war, is sometimes the best strategy. anyone who can look at the middle east over the last 50 years cannot honestly say this wasn't coming down the barrel since day 1. peace efforts were exhausted long ago, strategic positioning for the coming decades is necessary, though not pretty. The situation has gone downhill at at an ever increasing pace, the next 5 decades would be exactly the same.

As for people in the middle east hating the US. it is not possible for them to hate us more now. they have hated the US since the formation of israel, the putting of US bases in saudi arabia, kuwait, etc. these were unavoidable problems due to the instability and actions of middle eastern nations.

Sure, the reason for going to war was wrong. the American people were most likely lied to, or at the very least the government played the fool in the intelligence communities leading to bad decision making. but to sit on the outside and cluck at the effort now is a dumb attitude. Since hindsight has shown the reasons for going to war to have not come to be, we should discount the good that has come of it (directly and indirectly)? come on. [/b][/quote]
you sound like a german from the thirties and forties.

preemtive force is necessary...strategic planning...read "killing of tens of thousands of civilians defending their country"

you sound like a german from the thirties and forties.

preemtive force is necessary...strategic planning...read "killing of tens of thousands of civilians defending their country" [/b][/quote]
the goal of the actions makes a world of difference. this isnt imperialism in the slightest.

the goal of the actions makes a world of difference. this isnt imperialism in the slightest. [/b][/quote]
world domination? isolanitionism? what is the goal exactly?

Make people feel better cause WE say what is best for them ?

Agree with you about World War I.

The thing that has always seemed remarkable to me is that a repeat of World War I - "we have to go to war now, old chap - there is no 'off' swithch to our mobilization plan" didn't happen during the "Cold War" [meaning mostly brown, black, and yellow people died].

I agree about World War II as well - although I think it could have been prevented by the French had they not been stabbed in the back by their own right wing, and had they developed a set of testicles large enough to operate without the blessing of the King.

I think, however, that you should put down the crack pipe before you say "in WW2 we outta continued and fought against Stalin." That may sound really good in theory, but by 1945 Uncle Joe had some pretty formidable forces at his disposal, and most of what he was expending in the field was produced domestically. Not really sure the US/UK had the military might to do it, and there's that whole inconvenient thing about democracies - you'd have to sell the people on it, and I don't think the people on either side of the Atlantic would have bought it.

Although, at least in theory - such a thing MIGHT have been possible if the elections of 1945 had gone differently. Truman is quoted in the Congressional Record as suggesting from the floor of the Senate that the U.S. should support the Soviets as long as the Nazis were winning, but support the Nazis if it looked like the Soviets were winning.

Not sure I agree on Korea either. North Korea's invasion of the south was as clear an act of agression as anything Saddam ever contemplated. The mistake was in getting greedy - in trying to go all the way to the Chinese border.

I will avoid making any remarks about sheep or the Malvinas, just because I'm a nice guy, and I'm grateful that it did not become necessary for the United States to enter the conflict.

The Iraq war was totally justified for it's incredible TV entertainment value.

Now it's becoming pretty old though, I think they should leave Iraq and let them sort it out on their own so they can focus their resources on starting a new war with another country.

All on live television of course :D

Nick, when did you become such a whiney ass tree hugger? ;-)

Blame Canada ( hell they have tons of frenchmen there )

Blame Canada ( hell they have tons of frenchmen there ) [/b][/quote]
Canadians are lame, that's a fact, but I bet you have plenty of bark chips on your shirt :lol:

ditto! with few exceptions of the "media owned",
I say very keen and good analysis from economic point of view.

since he got rich....being rich allowes one to stop worrying about his/hers wellbeing and start thinking about the Humanity as a whole.

JR,
this is a fucking PEARL!
"the scary truth about the humanity is that i could have more success organizing people to murder on a large scale than you could in organizing people for world peace.
"
:pearl:

It's good to know that Nick is not worried about his wellbeing and has "the Humanity as a whole" on his mind while he rapes their inboxes with "your woman will worship you all night long" and "eminem wears rolex bling bling" :D

It's good to know that Nick is not worried about his wellbeing and has "the Humanity as a whole" on his mind while he rapes their inboxes with "your woman will worship you all night long" and "eminem wears rolex bling bling" :D [/b][/quote]
Timon,
because Nick cares about MANKIND...as I just said, thank you for pointing the obvious
;)

Timon,
because Nick cares about MANKIND...as I just said, thank you for pointing the obvious
;) [/b][/quote]
Thank you serge for recognising my humanitarian traits :)

It's good to know that Nick is not worried about his wellbeing and has "the Humanity as a whole" on his mind while he rapes their inboxes with "your woman will worship you all night long" and "eminem wears rolex bling bling" :D [/b][/quote]
Timon,

I had a dream!!!!

That one day , ALL the people in the world ( provided they have a valid credit card) could one day own a folex like emimem , celebrate the benefits of a hard cock , get the best possible mortgage rates , be made aware of some undervalued stock and GOD DAMN IT get a Credit card that suited todays modern demands!!!

I had a dream today!!!!!

That all people of the world were entitled to the best rates on Volcanbo insurance (really good deals for residents of the UK actually) , should have the benefit of a nice poem in there mailbox EVERY FUCKING morning without fail , possibly as many as 10 , and should be made aware that modern medicine can probably solve whatever it is that ails them merely by clicking on the enclosed link and pulling out there credit card.

I had a dream today!!!!

Later in the dream I looked at webcam offers , young girls available now , married woman near the receipient dying to be fucked and the delights of never before seen video of some celeb performing some act.
But NAY!!!!!! I could not in all good conscious send mail to pornographic websites!!!

The money isn't enough :)

Serge, what was that about Nick's wellbeing? ;-))

There has not been any modern warfare fought on US soil, could that be a reason that the people cant really understand the true horror of civilian casualties?

Same can be said of the UK although to a lesser extent , they did get the shit bombed out of them during WWII.

I'm aware of the huge importantce of the US during the war, but whilst their young men were fighting in Europe, they didnt have to worry about their wife and kids getting blown up.

***NOTE***
This is not a bash America comment just a statement of fact. :awinky:

el pres, that's exactly why we need to have this type of thing on live television, it is missing from all our lives

Couldn't they just put 'The Long Good Friday' on :agrin:

very keen observation...the year was 1980, I just came to USA and was talking to an older female collegue about the USSR, The Second World War, about the blockade of Leningrad by Germans when 3/4 of the city population have died from starvation...she interrupted me with:
Yes, I remember those war days in USA, it was real difficult times,
I couldn't even get my husband a white shirt for Xmass!"

THAT was her definition of "war horrors"

very keen observation...the year was 1980, I just came to USA and was talking to an older female collegue about the USSR, The Second World War, about the blockade of Leningrad by Germans when 3/4 of the city population have died from starvation...she interrupted me with:
Yes, I remember those war days in USA, it was real difficult times,
I couldn't even get my husband a white shirt for Xmass!"

THAT was her definition of "war horrors" [/b][/quote]
I watched a documentary on the seige of Leningrad last night.

Simply Horrific.

El Pres - the point that no major war has been fought on US soil in 20th Century certainly has a bearing on our use of military overseas. However, without the attacks in 9-11 we would not have had such a juicy excuse to go into Iraq.


Leeds you make some interesting points, however I think you do not understand the media in the US. The overwhelming mainstream media is very liberal, anti-war, and VERY anti-Bush. This included their corporate masters as well.

Only Murdoch was pro-war.

very keen observation...the year was 1980, I just came to USA and was talking to an older female collegue about the USSR, The Second World War, about the blockade of Leningrad by Germans when 3/4 of the city population have died from starvation...she interrupted me with:
Yes, I remember those war days in USA, it was real difficult times,
I couldn't even get my husband a white shirt for Xmass!"

THAT was her definition of "war horrors" [/b][/quote]


One must put this in perspective. How many mass horrors did Stalin bring on his own people? (before, during and after WWII ) What about the countries that fell into the USSR's zone of influence after WWII?

Stalin killed more Russians then Hitler did.