I have a feeling that "Hawks" and "Doves" have different opinions.

My feelings are mixed, I don't know what is the lesser evil....

Do you mean overseas outsourcing to countries with low wages?

yes, this one

you cannot stop progress.

capital will always seek the path of least resistance.

Government can put the end to it....and they will if Dems are elcted

I have not outsourced fulltime overseas but I’m thinking about it. In the past few years I’ve had some real nightmares. You’d think that prices would go down but they have not and if you find someone that has decent prices then be prepared to wait forever.

I posted something about Adult Outsourcing and wondered if anyone used these people. The prices are almost to low to be true but if the economy in Asia sucks then I guess it can be true.

yes, this one[/b][/quote]
All other things being equal, you'd be crazy not to. They are not equal though. There is more risk in dealing with third-world companies. For one,
it seems more difficult to assess the reputation of,say, an Indian company than a US one. Of course, there are charlatans and poorly run companies everywhere.

You also have less - if any - legal recourse in many countries.

Two :okthumb: :okthumb:

the average programmer in USA gets $80,000 a year,
the average Indian Programmer gets $16,000 a year.

1/5th or 20% from USA counterpart

Government can put the end to it....and they will if Dems are elcted[/b][/quote]
I think you are right to an extent...

....but, sooner or later gov't's will be forced to compete for capital at unprecedented levels.

where there is a will there is a way and there is a will for progress, productivity and efficiency.

Two :okthumb: :okthumb:[/b][/quote]
oh really?
than how come it's impossible to ship wine to Georgia???

you completely disregard the power of regulator's body.

I think you are right to an extent...

....but, sooner or later gov't's will be forced to compete for capital at unprecedented levels.

where there is a will there is a way and there is a will for progress, productivity and efficiency.[/b][/quote]
wig, all of the above result in higher unemployment and those unemployed DO vote...

Unemployment also leads to disinflation and reduction in values of the assets..
it's a double edged sword

oh really?
than how come it's impossible to ship wine to Georgia???

you completely disregard the power of regulator's body.[/b][/quote]
Define impossible. I've shipped wine to places where it is not allowed. Wig is including black markets.

Define impossible. I've shipped wine to places where it is not allowed. Wig is including black markets.[/b][/quote]
impossible=potential jail time for breaking the law...

I don't think that either you or wig are THAT thirsty
;-)))

wig, all of the above result in higher unemployment and those unemployed DO vote...

Unemployment also leads to disinflation and reduction in values of the assets..
it's a double edged sword[/b][/quote]
Serge,

JR and I outsource some programming jobs to India. We make more profit. Some of that profit goes into hiring customer service in the US. Some goes to a US hosting company. Some goes to a US graphics artist. Some goes to US tradeshow operators. A lot goes to the US government via taxes.

Some goes to the Mercedes dealership and there's where the real value begins. Once it's in the hands of the Mercedes dealer each dollar gets circulated in the economy an additional seven times per year (current money velocity).

More money in my hands is more money in the American economy.

impossible=potential jail time for breaking the law...

I don't think that either you or wig are THAT thirsty
;-)))[/b][/quote]
As Wig said, it happens. I have proof.

Pun intended.

Serge,

JR and I outsource some programming jobs to India. We make more profit. Some of that profit goes into hiring customer service in the US. Some goes to a US hosting company. Some goes to a US graphics artist. Some goes to US tradeshow operators. A lot goes to the US government via taxes.

Some goes to the Mercedes dealership and there's where the real value begins. Once it's in the hands of the Mercedes dealer each dollar gets circulated in the economy an additional seven times per year (current money velocity).

More money in my hands is more money in the American economy.[/b][/quote]
tell that to unemployed USA programmer who wishes HIS money circulate 7 times too...
all is nice and dandy in your reasoning except...
$$ you send to India are taken OUT of USA economy...
USA Economy would be much better off if:
1) you paid wages to US programmer
2) bought Caddilac instead of Mercedes
;-)))

It is a double edge sword indeed. Because of free trade I go to buy produce and I have to hunt to buy produce from the US or local Florida. We grow mangoes and avocados here but damn if I can buy a local one from a chain.

I hate the idea of outsourcing but the reality is that it’s cheaper and in most cases less headaches. It sucks.

What can I say?

When the automobile began to become popular, my great grandfather worried about the jobs of all the people that took care of the horses.

YES, it's cheaper...on one edge
and LESS people have buying power to buy those cheap goods on the other edge.

I love it.

Profit = revenue - expenses

What can I say?

When the automobile began to become popular, my great grandfather worried about the jobs of all the people that took care of the horses.[/b][/quote]
what's your suggestion?
US programmer should accept the wages of the Indian programmer to stay competitive?

:cryin: sorry, I'm a programmer......

Difference between me and the guy in India is with me, you can bring your half baked idea and your 5 million "enhancements" that you have already decided you want, a one paragraph description of the whole thing and you will end up with a working system.

That is because (especially at the independent level) the U.S. programmer is expected to be 1. A systems designer, 2. A program designer, 3. A database designer, 4. a coder, 5. a tester, 6. your personal fucking hardware technician for the rest of your measly life, 7. your kicking bag for the life of the application.

The programmer from India is going to deliver your project to exactly your specs, which requires you to first either be a systems designer or hire one, secondly for you to be a program designer or have hired one, 3 for you to be a database designer or have hired one... 4 for you to know a fucking thing or two about hardware or have an IT staff that knows...

The Indian guy will code and test it for you....

It's called "Value Added"



:okthumb:

Outsourcing jobs is the price we have to pay if we want a global economy... in fact outsourcing jobs to other countries have always been here, in old time it was just mainly expensive goods, because it was expensive to transport goods from one part of the world to the other, however within the last 30 years we have seen technology making it cheaper and cheaper to transport goods on the world oceans.

And now due to the low cost of communication which the internet provide, then its time to outsource many of the office type jobs - callcenters, bookeeping, programmers, designers, etc.

There is no way to stop the outsoucring of jobs - evolution will prove once again, that those who adapt will survive, while those who refuse will disappear... :zoinks:

oh really?
than how come it's impossible to ship wine to Georgia???

you completely disregard the power of regulator's body.[/b][/quote]
Serge,

I am not completely disregarding regulators power AND especially their desire to hold on to it.

I am just suggesting that over time this power will devolve.

There are overseas TEAMS that are pretty good.

There are great programmers in the US and some really awful ones too. We've had a dozen or so working for us over the years and there is a real range of abilities.

Maybe MikeAI has comments. He has a bunch on staff.

wig, all of the above result in higher unemployment and those unemployed DO vote...

Unemployment also leads to disinflation and reduction in values of the assets..
it's a double edged sword[/b][/quote]
Whatever it leads to does not change the fact that it is likely to happen. ;-))

I love it.

Profit = revenue - expenses[/b][/quote]
Sometimes I wonder. There are days I think it’s growing pains as we herald into the future and the world becomes smaller then there are days when I wonder wtf? … and it’s almost scary to me.

I have friends all over the world and it’s nothing for us to say, “Yeah lets have dinner soon.”

The part that scares me most about outsourcing or free trade is that you don’t really know what could happen. The government can barely pay attention to its own shit much less the safety issues in lets say produce… they could be spraying all kinds of shit on. There’s also the fact that we have so many farmers (executives, professionals and trades people) out of work and going bankrupt. I think there should be a limit to all of this…sorry but that’s a fact.

lol- but damnit I'll probably hire overseas.

Government can put the end to it....and they will if Dems are elcted[/b][/quote]
Then the companies will merely leave the US. And what kind of laws do you pass in order to stop the outsourcing of information i.e. graphics and helpdesk employees?

It's a cycle. When someone in China can make jeans for less than someone in America can, then the price drops and more people in America can afford jeans.

Americans just need to face a few simple facts...

Education is key. We have too much supply of low skilled workers.

Their choice is either to cry to Gov't for protection or gain more skill.

No doubt, most will cry.

Where does that leave the US in the near term? hmmmm.

And to pick up from another thread created by Colin on eating less…

Americans, for the most part are unhealthy and lazy.

Right now, i'm using a programmer from Romania. He's great. Perfect english, and i don't have to get too technical (which is great, because i don't know shit when it comes to programming).

But to be honest, i'd rather be hiring local programmers. But my budget is shoestring, to say the least, and right now i'm doing what i've got to do. I think at a later stage, when i upgrade the system (already have ideas to improve it, depending on how things go), i'll get a local programmer to do the job. But until then, it's good ol' eastern Europe for me.

Fear leads to Anger. Anger leads to Hate. Hate leads to suffering

More Democrats?

I do not know, if people in the west are ready to really compete with 3rd world people - I mean it will change their lifes forever... ex. no more high taxed goverments, people always in somekind of education improving their skills, no more short work days and long vacations etc...

My bet is that politians will use outsourcing to scare people into voting for them, but they will not try to cure it, because if they did, then it would mean less power to the politicians.

More Democrats?[/b][/quote]
I would agree.

I am with you on the politics of it all... mix it up and keep it difficult to get anything done. :okthumb:

Exactly.

If you can get the same quality product at a lower price then you should go for it. Doesn't matter if it is a TV, Car, Stereo, House or programmer. The maerket will decide the value.

In the long run, global competition is good for the product and good for the market.

Case in point, the automobile sector:

After WWII, we rebuilt Japan's industrial sector pretty much from scratch, so, coming out of the 40's Japan was working out of brand new factories while we were working out of old factories. During the 50's and 60's Japanese products were considered crap, laughable to see the "made in Japan" on a product. In the early 70's during the various oil crisises that we experienced, the push for more fuel economy opened the US market to smaller more fuel efficient Japanese cars. At first, these cars were considered crap, but by the late 70's, US manufacturers were scrambling to catch up. Meanwhile, Japanese auto production improved and their cars started to get a good reputation in the U.S.. The american auto manufacturers took a beating at the hands of the Japanese manufacturers for a few years there.

But, as the quality of Japanese autos improved and the skill of their workforce grew, so did the wages they were earning, and the lifestyle they demanded got higher. By the mid 80's, it was cheaper to build Japanese cars in the U.S. and several of the manufacturers moved their production to the states for cheaper labor and more market availability. With the upshot being that the US automobile manufacturing segment ended up doing ok. Difference is that instead of building GM's, Fords and Chryslers, many are building Toyotas, Hondas and Datsuns, but they are building them in the US.

What goes around, comes around.


edited in: after I wrote that mess, I went and googled and came up with this:

http://www.time.com/time/globalbusiness/ar...-451002,00.html

looks like a fairly accurate accessment of the current situation in re Cars.




Last edited by sarettah at Mar 5 2004, 11:38 AM

Serge, I am not sure how I feel either. Part of me agrees with WIG, this is the part that beleives in true market capitalism.

However, I have some potential issues with National Defense, and loyalty to fellow Americans.

In todays world, it is legal, so thus businesses almost have to outsource to remain competative.