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I have been very critical of Bush's decision to reverse Clinton's previous support for the World Crinimal Court... and I still think Clinton was on the right track, BUT..
JR asked in another thread if it was legal for the coalition to attack Saddam's bunker and ry and assasinate him before the fighting started and it got me thinking.. If Bush had signed on to that WCC agreement can you imagine how many complaints would have been filed against American's by now?... about that first strike for one... and about the use of cluster bombs which they officially confirmed started dropping today.. In fact I wonder if anyone is filing complaints against the British.. they are the ones that have been dropping the cluster bombs apparently. (as usual Australia didn't sign on to the WCC in support of the USA) |
Opti I have read that some people/countries are trying to sue George Bush and other American leaders in that court.
How stupid is the rest of the world?? |
I dunno about how stupid everyone else is :matey: ... with war happening Bush did do the right thing for America on this one though imho... B)
My thoughts is that this war wouldn't have happened with Clinton in office and probably same result with Gore.. and therefore strong US participation in WCC would be a good thing to balance out the European influence.. But that isn't what happened we have a war.. and right now Bush does look like he took the smart option :yowsa: |
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that sounded awfully like a really dumb threat :woo: this is 1 time where I feel perfectly justified in saying 'you just don't get it' because its obvious, you don't. look at the 2 right wing comments ... -- How stupid is the rest of the world?? Stupid enough not to be learning a lesson from what's happening to Saddam... -- and then they ask ... "Why doesn't anyone like us?" :wankit: |
CJ you apaprently do not understand the concept of LAW.
There is something called Jurisdiction. It is a primary component to all cases/issues. Without it, no court has control over a person, or his property. The World Court, has no Jurisditcion over anything - especially not in the United States, it would violate our Constitution. That is why we have not, nor would we sign it. ( if we did Supreme Court would over turn it). It would be like me setting up a court on my 45 acres to prosecute stupid people. Would that mean Ulfie could bring charges against you for being stupid, and you would tell my court, and Ulfie to "Fuck off" - and you would be right - because we have no jurisdcition over you. Same thing with US Citizens, and of course US Presidents with the World Court. The World Court is a farce, it is a fiction created by people who have to much time on their hands. People who think one world gov't will be utopia. Come on girlie.... you can do better.... I can just feel you seething.... You are just going to have to face it that you are living in a world of Pax Americana.... and it will not be changing anytime soon. The US will continue to get stronger. The parts of the world that "hate" us, are simply due to ENVY.... nothing more, nothing less. :salute: :salute: |
if people like you continue to run your country, you will NOT be the leader for many more decades. one day you will piss off another country so badly they will drop THE bomb. your mind is so closed to the outside world that you don't even realize how close that point is.
keep :wankit: |
HAHA I will take that as a compliment CJ.
I think my views of the world are pretty solid. I have a strong background in foreign policy, and international affairs. At least the University who gave me a diploma thought so. It is not about ignorance, it is about the Real Politik school of foreign policy which dates back to Thucydides and the History of the Pelopensian War. The reality is, the world is LUCKY that the United States is a reluctant superpower, we have no interest in Empires, or anything else. Just long term stability, and globalization. Did you learn about Jurisdiction? :D :P I came up with a few other examples that could help incase you are still strugling with the concept. I must apologize to Ulfie, I just threw out his name for my example, I doubt he would want anything to do with lawyers! haha Oh and as far as THE BOMB, I have no doubt that people like Saddam, Bin Laden, or other terrorist thugs would nuke the US in a heartbeat if they had the capacity to do so. That is why WE must fight and destroy them before they have this opportunity. To these people CJ - YOU TOO are an infidel... infact probably worse off them me since you are female.... they would be happy to nuke Australia as well! |
Actually, Mike, my experience has been that there are a few people who are jealous of the United States.
Many of them that I have met - recently and back when Uncle sent me around a couple of places - don't dislike the U.S., although they view our government with suspicion. Do you think the Australian Prime Minister is committing political suicide because of the righteousness of our cause, or is it because he hopes to persuade the morons in DC not to try and buy friendship with the Indonesians again - which we have done repeatedly in the past in spite of the dangers that it presents to an ally that's never hesitated to support us in any of our follies? And they find certain kinds of American arrogance, particlularly when expressed by boorish people without a clue about the world, very offensive. Frankly, the way you talk about "thje world of Pax Americana" makes me ashamed to be from the same place as you are - not of my country - just some of the clueless who live here. |
you've resorted to posting your education resume?!!? LOL you really are reaching this time.
I'm not going to be drawn into your bullshit today, nice try on the 'suddam hates women' thing though ... really good in fact!! you are really good at throwing in irrelevant points based on the passions of your debating opposition to try to get a rise. keep it up! at least its entertaining for your buddies! but more than anything, you are really good at this!! :wankit: |
pd, thank you for showing me that at least someone understands my attitude and why I feel this way.
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HAHA lighten up PD, I am just beating the drum a little to get a response. There could be a Pax Americana but because this Nation is so great, we only want to help. We have no designs to conquest the world or anything else....
The reality of globilization is that US Companies are doing it. I am sure you are familiar with Thomas Friedman, a very good columnist ( though I don't agree with everything he writes), read his book The Lexus and the Olive Tree. Actually I recomend this book to everyone.... Miss Eve you would like it. Anyway, the United States gov't SHOULD be viewed with suspicion... hell most people in the US have the same suspicions. Are we perfect? Not even close.... But we do more good then bad, and we have helped shaoe the world towards a good, safe course.... We are a reluctant Giant... if it was up to most of the country, we would just mind out own business and stay uninvolved with the world. But unfortunately we cannot.... You know I like to get worked up PD. I have been watching the news for 2 weeks, constantly - I am very proud of my Country, of our President, and most imporantly the great men in our armed forces! I get carried away and tend to overstate things.... but I am around friends, hopefully I will be forgiven for my Philistine ways. :D :P :rolleyes: |
CJ this thread was about WORLD CRIMINAL COURT and them trying to bring up Bush on charges.
I just pointed out how stupid it was, that it was a chirade, a mocking of real law, and generally a sham. Then you jumped in, so I tried to EDUCATE you on the concept of Jurisdiction, and how a world court interacts with the US Constitution. I gave my part of my resume to try and explain that I am far from ignorant and closed minded about the world and foreign policy. Of course, maybe if I was as enlightened like you, I would have a better grasp on important geo-political issues. |
>>But we do more good then bad
for whom mike? wow you've really got the flow of verbal diarrhea going good tonight!!!! you can have a gold star!! :wankit: |
:D
Night CJ! :salute: |
same time next week?
night! :salute: |
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Participation in the World Court would be no different than membership in the United Nations or the obligations under any treaty. |
Bush cannot be tried in the World Court because the US did not sign up to that agreement and is obligated to reject such a decision to try him. its probably safe to say that armed commandos may probably not succeed in slipping into the US to arrest and deport him.
There are several international courts and arbitration courts. the only difference is this is a criminal court. the OFFICIAL statements i remember for the US not signing up to it, (fair to point out that Russia, China and other major powers also did not) was that as Bush said many times people will probably use this court to carry out politically motivated attacks against US officials and US Military. Probably a reasonable and legitimate concern. the US government (unless memory failrs me) was originally pushing for several various exemptions from different clauses in the agreement which were not granted. I was in Stockholm Sweden last weekend and there was a pro-Palestinian demonstration and march (which i briefy participated in because i just could not resist the irony that no one knew i was American) - but there were numerous calls to bring Bush to the World Court as with Sharon. |
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Don't forget this is a "US Led" attack on Iraq.... we are just part of the gumbo taking orders from "your" Commander and Chief.... operating on the plan that was devised in the pentagon not the MoD. So could you please enlighten me as to what you’re trying to insinuate?!?! |
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I wonder if way back in time, when the various states were coalescing (sp?) into the United States, people said the same thing about an overlord federal criminal code and court system? |
I think you're ALL wrong. I'm going back to bed.
:ph34r: j/k. Isn't "international law' mostly a matter of enforceability? Pax Americana? Pax = Peace. Where is that happening? The concept of sovereignty is a fraud used by conservatives? How so? I'm probably not understanding you, PD. Why isn't the philosophical ideology of national sovereignty on intellectual par with the idea of internationalism? Trev, Opti is from Australia so UK troops are not taking commands from HIS commander and chief. Drop cluster bombs all ya want though ;-) |
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Don't forget this is a "US Led" attack on Iraq.... we are just part of the gumbo taking orders from "your" Commander and Chief.... operating on the plan that was devised in the pentagon not the MoD. So could you please enlighten me as to what you’re trying to insinuate?!?![/b][/quote] the point is probably that those that followed the orders are equally liable for war crimes as those that gave the orders. thats the law. that being said... bomb away. its not a direct violation of the law i think. i think its more about semantics in what is appropriate or necessary. its certainly not any worse and definately not more illegal than using depleted uranium munitions that A-10's, Apaches and other tanks use to slice tanks into pieces. i haven't heard the world complaining about that this time around as with Kosovo and Gulf War 1, so maybe they dont do it anymore. |
M1a1s still use depleted uranium.
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Threat? No, my statement was a warning. We didn't sign that treaty; and woe to those who would try to force it upon us... |
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Torone,
It's a good thing you're not in charge. :blink: If you really want to know why people "hate the US" try listening to them. The "world hates us" because we have invented a new form of imperialism. We enforce a new world order with might. This is probably the fate of any state that sits atop the pecking order of nations. Granted, US imperialism is different than Soviet, British, German or even Roman imperialism in the sense that the US is not expanding territorially. It is willing, however, to use force in order to achieve political goals. The US has been doing this pretty consistently since World War II (even before) but many people in the world viewed it as a balancing power to the spectre of Soviet empire. The disintegration of the USSR has freed up a lot of hate. There are a lot of people in the world that could go either way. They may end up pro or anti-US. There are a lot of people that could view the US positively rather than negatively. It will be a very difficult sea to traverse. It will be very difficult to counter threats in the world that are aimed predominantly at the US without expending more and more political capital. One more note: If extremist terrorist organizations blew up the largest buildings in Russia, China, France, Germany, etc. we'd probably all be on the same side. Since they haven't, they have effectively split and divided the world. I think Osama is delirious with happiness. Last edited by Colin at Apr 4 2003, 08:32 AM |
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I'm quite sure I do. Thanks for checking. |
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I assumed you do. That's why I used your post as an anchor. |
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Your momma wears army boots. |
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I'm going to stop reading this board... I keep spitting beer all over my monitor :D Last edited by Trev at Apr 4 2003, 01:54 PM |
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Colin you are right about the "New" Imperialism - it is the Imperialism of our Culture, and it is NOT forced on other countries, the people in other parts of the world WANT what we have.
I can understand how other countries feel threatened by part of the US Culture - I know I have some issues with it, and I am a patriot. Since WWII, our culture has been spreading around the world, and many of the ideas that we hold dear, freedom, free markets, suspicion of authority, and all the other American traits are a major threat to those who are in power of Dictatorships. But one cannot change the tides.... and the tide of WESTERN Culture ( because for the most part the West works together, and are already plugged into globalization) is sweeping the world, and will not be turned back. |
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And yours carries a mattress on her back and follows troop movements; but why the insult? I also chose your post because it was short. :nyanya: |
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how do you know what the rest of the world wants? do you think that because mcdonalds are in every city that the world wants to be like america? hardly, its because everyone wants quick hamburgers, we're all busy, even us non americans in our poor little 3rd world countries ... while foreign countries embrace many technologies that started in america, we also reject (by choice) most of your culture ... me personally, i invite american culture into my home ... but most people regularly reject things because they are 'too american'. if you'd let your ears have a turn, you might hear what i'm saying as NOT anti american ... people like you frustrate me, because I know for a FACT that the bigger percentage of my country and many other non americans feel that YOU and those who think like you are what makes us NOT want to be like america. If I had to sum up what I hate about your country, and there isn't much, its quite simply, those who believe their country is the only correct place to live. how disrespectful do you have to be to other cultures, to assume that we would want to dismiss our own traditions to take on those of your culture? Do you really think that the rest of the world has it that badly that we are begging to be saved by big macs and oversized cars? I love most of your culture, and I respect that you have a right to be proud of it. Why can't you give the rest of the world the same courtesy? |
Just read CJ's post,
"Triumph of a Penal Colony' Good Stuff! < just joking CJ :) > i was thinking again about what i have seen in the last two years: Russia -Moscow -St Petersburg Korea -Pusan -Seoul (everything in between - once took a train accross the country) Thailand -Bangkok (lived there ONLY because i liked the food. no really! ) Canada -love BC , Vancouver area. France- -Paris (many times) -Lyon -Marseilles -Menton, Cap Martin area (by Italian border) - love that place -Nice -Cannes -Antibes Monaco - love that place too. Italy -Genoa -Milan -Pisa -Rome -Venice -everywhere along the Riviera Spain -Barcelona Austria -Vienna -Innsbruck -Salzburg (they said Mozart died before we got there :( ) Germany -Frankfurt -Berlin (several times) -Stuttgart -Regensburg (where the spinchat.de guys are) -Munich Netherlands (several times) -Amsterdam -Rotterdam -The Hague (could not find Miloslovich) Belgium -Brussels (odd place for EU capital if you ask me) -Antwerp (bought no diamonds) Luxembourg love that place. very cool. Great Britain -London Finland -Helsinki -Porvo -Turku Sweden -Stockholm (love that place too) here is what i think based on what i have seen: My experience is that most people in Europe think Americans are a bunch of arrogant assholes and high on themselves. Most people reject Americans completely - and Americans tend to think that Brittney Spears topping the pop charts in "Deadcowistan" means they like America. it doesn't. it means they like a song by Brittney Spears. American culture is not taking over the world in my opinion. American movies and music are everywhere - but that accounts for about 90% of the presence of Global influence culturally. in you are trying to find a pair of Levis in Helsinki, you better pack a lunch. Most of Europe and presumably, the world as well takes deep pride in their history, in their cultures and their traditions and view the US and the ultimate "anti-culture" which in most peoples opinion, is nothing more than a culture of excess, arrogance and self indulgence. My opinion has long been that Americans really fail to appreciate their deep disconnection with the rest of the world. Americans love to talk about the success of the US economy or its military might as a measure of success against other countries. This is sort of flawed because it assumes that other countries have the same attitude about growth and expansion and are trying to compete. its irrelevent if i take pride in being the fastest runner in the world... yet the only runner in the race. It may be true in places like Japan and others - but most people in Europe care more about the quality of their life. for them, it means just taking time to sit, relax, think, read, write or enjoy a park or to sit in the shadow of a 2000 year old cathedral and listen to their walkman. Euro Disney outside of Paris (been there too) is unprofitable for a reason... because its mostly supported by tourists from outside of Europe and people in Europe could largely care less unless its just out of morbid curiosity. American Music is not any more popular in Europe than European groups. With the exceptions of the mega stars (madonna, Britney spears etc), you will find more European music on all charts. Its easy to lose perspective on that when European and ANY music not in English does not make the US charts and when it does, its assumed to be American... yet in Europe, at any given moment there are top singles in numerous languages. American films i dont think are popular in the world because they are better written, better acted and better produced. i watch all kinds of foreign films that are really good. there are some very big advantages that we dont think about when looking at international box office sales... that is being able to spend $250,000,000.00 on production and another $50,000,000.00 on marketing combined with unparalleled distribution capabilities. My honest opinion is that there is no American "imperialism". Just an American impression of imperialism. I mean the American impression of their impact on the world is far greater than the actual impact. That idea is going to fade as well if/when the EU gets its shit together and people finally realize that China is quickly becoming the new America. |
My comments on "American Imperialism" weren't meant as a commentary on cultural diffusion.
Why are people in China learning English but people in the US not learning Chinese? When I was in France, nearly everyone spoke English. Why? Not counting those who were born in India, UK, Australia and other countries that have English as their primary language. They have their own reasons, of course. Leaders of many countries in the world conduct interviews in English. Why? People all over the world used to learn French. It was considered the "international language". What changed? [After English colonialisn, of course]. My grandparents came to America from Italy in 1921. Why? Many people in the last century, the world over, have viewed America as the land of opportunity. My grandparents did. America marketed itself well. Maybe we are seeing a fallout from that now. Maybe with the fall of the USSR people don't have "sides" to choose from. Maybe this is just a bump in the road. We don't know. What I meant by "American Imperialism" though is the shaping of a region of the world by economic or military means. The replacing of the Taliban with the Karzai government. The removal of Saddam from power. Kuwait permitting the US to base there for a military operation [would have never happened in 1978]. America is practicing imperialism without colonialism. She wields her military power to reshape the global political landscape. Why is the US so involved in the "Middle East peace process". This is the imperialism I was talking about. Of course, many Americans see this as a good thing. Altering the environment to her benefit. Many people elsewhere see it as bullying. I think both points of view are completely correct. I think most every country attempts to influence the world to it's benefit and does so roughly in proportion to it's power in the world. Power may be militaristic, economic [related], standing in the UN [France derives power from it's veto], which side you choose in military conflicts and many other things. It cannot be ignored that military strength is a decisively important factor in the relationship between nations. The five countries with veto power in the UN Security Council are declared nuclear states. Chance? No way. Military might is a fundamental variable in the political relationship between nations. At the start of this current war France, Germany, and Belgium had a meeting to discuss some sort of possible military alliance to balance American power. I see JR's point and agree and have always regarding the "greatness of nations" flaw. People find the best think about their nation and think of it's strength in terms of those qualities. A good example is the frequent French dismissal of America as a "Land without culture". Military and economic power are much more fundamental in the world power struggle though - and there certainly is one - than how nice one's beaches are. In the past decade America's military power has headed to new heights and the opposing Soviet power has shrunk. How will the balance of power in the world shift as a result? New alliances, new militarization, anti-Americanism leading to decreased propagation of McDonald's and Coca Cola? Ands everything turns, turns, turns, turns. Last edited by Colin at Apr 5 2003, 12:28 PM |
CJ I think all cultures are great. I think every culture has something to bring to the table.... The conflict/bringing together of cultures have expanded human knowledge and experience.
But there are some cultures that have anomolies - those who abuse their people, destroy basic human rights, who the free world should put pressure on to correct. It becomes a MAJOR necessity when these anomolies become militiristic and put the well being of free people at risk have to be intervened. I truly hope in our lifetimes that Iraq is a free democracy, and we can all visit the fertile crescent. I cannot imagine visting any cooler/historic place. There is a lot of history, and a lot of culture to be explored. So CJ, we can take our cameras and get some great photos! The ironic thing is at one time the islamic world was the elightened ones. When Europe was in the middle ages, slaughtering people because they claimed the world was round, or NOT the center of the universe, or because they were "witches" - the Islamic world was doing complex algebra, figuring out what 0 was, advances in astronomy, etc.... The Islamic world when they clashed with Europe brought many of this advances with them.... |
There is a lot of history, and a lot of culture to be explored.
So CJ, we can take our cameras and get some great photos! ----- of what, piles of rubble? there will be a large portion of people who hate us there for a long time to come ... i aint visiting in a hurry. There's plenty of other *friendly* places in the world to visit that I haven't been to yet. you are still claiming that you know what's best for other cultures ... I guess no common sense will break through what you believe to be true. That's sad for you, and for the future of your country. Colin, your post talks about imperialism, and the global cultural changes that have occured ... people are learning english, the value of the dollar is almost always compared to the american dollar in many countries, and immigrants see america as the land of opportunity ... There's no question that america is powerful and influential, but there are more examples of where the american culture is agressively rejected than embraced. You can talk about nuclear power and how that is what controls the choices of our governments - yep, great, guns control governments. That's hardly new ... But, guns can't control people's attitudes ... Iraq is a perfect example. Much of Iraq's daily rules are forced on them by their government, and yet look how many there are who stand against those principals because they simple don't want them in their lives ... We are counting on it to win this war! Of course the nations with the strongest fire power will be making the decisions in the UN and any other global group of power ... and in turn, many of the cultural traits of those countries will be more strongly pushed on the rest of the world. Do you think that forcing cultural changes on a country will make the people of that country sit back and think 'oh well, i dont have a choice, they have bigger guns'? Of course not ... they form groups and protest and harass their own government and if they still aren't listened to, there is always an extremist who will blow shit up. The average Joe (or mohammed), isn't scared of the power of the American government ... other Governments may be, but the feeling is not always (i'd say rarely) shared by the residents of their countries. American Imperialism has been strong for many decades, and the result was 9/11 ... the great many who dislike western culture don't care how many guns your government has, because they can hijack a plane, carefully plan and choose major targets, and cause 2 years (so far) of damage ... Look at the chain of events that have followed 9/11 ... The U.S. economy is nose diving, many people are scared to fly, the people of our western countries are torn between feeling that we caused it through imperialism or feeling angry and full of vengence. We all know america has big guns, did it help in this case? |
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