I'm not buying into this discussion...but is this Oprano's first 4 page thread? :)

Extra in Colin's pay packet next week.... :wnw: :wnw: :wnw:

Alex

good idea torone ...

if that happens, i predict it will be around 5 years before the world gangs up on america and the UN starts discussing the concept of disarming america of their nuclear weapons. you'd be fucked in no time! don't underestimate what many other countries do to help america maintain their position as top dog. you might be important, but your not THAT important.

but hey, go ahead, i'd love to turn you away as a refugee to my country!

:nyanya: :nyanya: :nyanya:

hasn't this fucking thread died yet?!?!?!

:okthumb:

Here is some useful info on Australia for your impending trip KC :awinky:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A53650


As a footnote for people with feet: Australians don't drink Fosters.
We export it, we don't drink that crap ourselves. :P

good idea torone ...

if that happens, i predict it will be around 5 years before the world gangs up on america and the UN starts discussing the concept of disarming america of their nuclear weapons. you'd be fucked in no time! don't underestimate what many other countries do to help america maintain their position as top dog. you might be important, but your not THAT important.

but hey, go ahead, i'd love to turn you away as a refugee to my country!

:nyanya: :nyanya: :nyanya:

hasn't this fucking thread died yet?!?!?![/b][/quote]
you missed part of the point...If the US pulls out of the UN, the UN ceases to exist. We are their main source of funds, as well as their main source of military power. Also, you don't think that any other country being armed well enough to threaten us would be acceptable, do you?

"we" are their main source of funds?

"we" did not pay our bills there and at one point owed around
$1,000,000,000.00 in debt to the UN if i am not mistaken.

yup, we pay about 25% of UN funding
same goes for NATO about 33% there.

Thanks for the tips ;) haha

I knew about the Foster's thing.. I just wanted to piss off CJ!!! ;)

My goodness.
I browse back through to see what transpired in the last few days and I find this.
CJ, you've just proven unequivocally that you haven't the slightest concept of how to separate debate from personal feelings or attacks.
Therefore, you lose the argument.

I'd be curious to know exactly who "my ignorants" are - but since the last time I asked you a direct question you totally sidestepped it and started slinging insults, I won't expect an answer. Have fun crumbling into a heated mass of anger and emotion... the rest of us "ignorants" will be sitting over here calmly and cooly discussing things if you feel like gathering yourself together.

JR - Fuckin' awesome post. :okthumb: :okthumb:

sweet fancy moses, i can't believe this thread is 4 pages long and still going...

has anything happened in the last 2-3 pages? or is it just self indulgent bullshit like the begining of the thread? :P

i don't think i have the "intestinal fortitude" to go back and read all of this...

unless someone suggests it is worth reading...and you better not pull a fast one on me, i'll hunt you down... :D

T-Rav if you missed JR's really long post on Page 3 it's definitely worth reading.

My goodness.
I browse back through to see what transpired in the last few days and I find this.
CJ, you've just proven unequivocally that you haven't the slightest concept of how to separate debate from personal feelings or attacks.
Therefore, you lose the argument.

I'd be curious to know exactly who "my ignorants" are - but since the last time I asked you a direct question you totally sidestepped it and started slinging insults, I won't expect an answer. Have fun crumbling into a heated mass of anger and emotion... the rest of us "ignorants" will be sitting over here calmly and cooly discussing things if you feel like gathering yourself together.

JR - Fuckin' awesome post. :okthumb: :okthumb:[/b][/quote]
LOL
carrie, you'll notice i've not started off any of my posts with 'i like you but ...'
i've seen you around for about a year or so, we've conversed once before on netpond where you also jumped on me for a comment without reading what I was commenting on - seem familiar? I notice you do it regularly in your rhetoric, on all controversial subjects. I can't remember what subject it was in this case but it forms my opinion of you and your first post in this thread.

in the same post you called this an argument, but then said you'll be "calmly and cooly discussing things if you feel like gathering yourself together."

ummm ... which is it sweetie? are we discussing or arguing? I can do both ... do me a favor though first, read the meaning of the word 'debate', -the part about considering opposing viewpoints. are you ready to do that? There's rarely a winner or loser in 'debates', hence why its called a debate and not a 'competition' or a 'challenge' or a 'contest'.

5 entries found for debate.
de·bate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-bt)
v. de·bat·ed, de·bat·ing, de·bates
v. intr.
To consider something; deliberate.
To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
To engage in a formal discussion or argument. See Synonyms at discuss.
Obsolete. To fight or quarrel.

now, onto addressing your points, because as little respect as I have for you, I do agree that there have not been any valid points addressed so far in our banter back and forward, just insults ... so, which questions did I sidestep?

I didn't see any questions in any of your posts just statements about what the rest of the world aren't doing to help america.

please feel free to repeat the questions i missed ....

is this one?
>>I'd be curious to know exactly who "my ignorants" are

in this post i was referring to you, and the other person who immediately responded after you ... both of you were talking about 'why we should bomb iraq' and 'why america doesn't get enough support in the UN'. none of the rest of us were talking about that, only you ... showing ignorance to the issues being discussed. I find that those who usually do this simply don't understand the original point of discussion or are too lazy to read it, therefore comment on something sideline or semi-relevant which they do have an opinion on. you used my post about something else to argue an irrelevant point.

and YES. i took great offence to your comment about no one else standing up and supporting america, because no matter how you intended it to be interpreted, it came out as a blatantly incorrect statement about my country and its support for your country. I found the post disrespectful and insulting and you'll notice an american also interpreted it the same way.

But no, i don't think you are anti australia. i doubt you know where it is on the map.

eagerly awaiting your 'questions'

Yee Haa.. It's A Girl Fight!! :bjump: :bjump: :bjump:

:yowsa:

Popcorn?

Maybe a beer and a couple of deck chairs too eh PD? :biglaugh:

don't get too excited, we aren't taking our clothes off or anything

:rolleyes:

Well... we can hope can't we? :yowsa: Strangner things have happened at Oprano!! :groucho:

Maybe a beer and a couple of deck chairs too eh PD? :biglaugh:[/b][/quote]
I'll have a double espresso ... which means more beer for you. Deck chairs would be good, but a couple of recliners would be better.

Whose got the webcam 'cause I'm standing here with a usb cable :)

No, the last few pages are even better!

I suggest reading it. I'll email you my address.

CJ,

If we didn't have this discussion I would have never learned about East Timor. I conclude that pissing is the proper path to learning. Witness that as the piss dies down, the conversation turns to espresso, beer, and popcorn. Personally, I'd rather piss and learn than talk about food and drink.

For the record, you said to me "I find your posts insightful and thought provoking ... but" which is the same sort of technique you refer to above. Should we both retire it or continue on? I kind of like it myself and also thought it clever when you used it - even more clever than the way I used it.

and if it weren't for watching 5 years of pissing i would know nothing about american politics instead of very little ;-)))

I don't think this thread has fully died down yet :awinky: but yes, i agree that as with every heated argument there is a calm that follows where (some of) the participants realize how much they almost agreed all along.

retire or continue the technique? or the discussion?
i doubt we could stop it if we tried! LOL

CJ,

Ignoring this thread has been like trying to look away from a plane wreck. Everyone keeps trying but the carnage continues. I think this thread IS starting to die down. Everyone is starting to get along and we're starting to discuss the thread itself. Reminiscent reflective ruminations killed the posting star.

Anyway - I'm going to read up on North American history today and study my Rand McNally
so Alex can't include me in his list of dumb Americans ["most Americans can't find Canada on a map or understand their systems of government and social services"].

The hulk of a man with a beer in is hand
Looked like a drunk old fool
And I knew if I hit him right
Why I could knock him off-a that stool
But ever'body they said "Watch out,
Hey, that's Tiger Man McCool"
He's had a whole lot of fights
And he's always come out a WINNER

Yea!, he's A WINNER.

But I'd had myself about five too many
And I walked up tall and proud
I faced his back and I faced the fact
That he had never stooped or bowed
I said, "Tiger Man, you're a pussycat"
And a hush fell on the crowd
I said let's you and me go outside and see
Who's A WINNER.

Well, he gripped the bar with one big hairy hand
And he braced against the wall
He slowly looked up from his beer
My God, that man was tall
He said boy, I see you're a scrapper
So just before you fall
I'm gonna tell you just a little
'Bout what it means to be A WINNER.

He said "Now you see these bright white smiling teeth
You know they ain't my own
Mine rolled away like chicklets
Down the street in San Antone
But I left that person, cursin'
Nursin' seven broken bones
And he, uh, only broke, uh, three of mine
That makes me THE WINNER."

He said "Now behind this grin, I got steel pins
That holds my jaw in place
A trophy of my most successful
Motorcycle race
And each morning when I wake and touch
This scar across my face
It reminds me of all I got
by being A WINNER."

"Now this broken back was a dying act
Of a handsome Harry Clay
That sticky Cincinnati night
I stole his wife away
But that woman she gets uglier
And she gets meaner every day
But I got her, boy
that's what makes me A WINNER

He said "You gotta speak loud when you challenge me son
'Cause it's hard for me to hear
With this twisted neck and these migrane pains
And this big old cauliflower ear
And if it wasn't for this glass eye of mine
Why, I'd shed a happy tear
To think of all you're gonna get
By being A WINNER."

I got ar-th-rit-ic elbows, son
I got dislocated knees
From pickin' fights with thunderstorms
And chargin' into trees
And my nose's been broke so often
I might lose it if I sneeze
And son, you say you
still wanna be A WINNER."

"Now you remind me a lot of my younger days
With your knuckles a-clenchin' white
But boy, I'm gonna sit right here
And sip this beer all night
And if there's somethin' that you gotta gain or prove
by winnin' some silly fight
Well, OK, I quit, I lose
You're THE WINNER."

Oh, I stumbled from that barroom
Not so tall and not so proud
And behind me I still hear
the hoots and laughter of the crowd
But my eyes still see and my nose still works
And my teeth are still in my mouth
And you know, I guess that
Makes me THE WINNER.
:nyanya: :groucho: :headwall: :matey: :okthumb:



Last edited by Torone at Mar 4 2003, 10:04 AM

Colin, nothing short of a full frontal labotomy would dumbyou down enough to not know where Canada is... :-)

Part of this thread dying down and people being "calm" is that some of us refuse to get dragged back into the mud for another round. I have bit my tongue a few times along the way, deciding that there really isn't a benefit to saying what I really wanted to say. Deciding not to discuss politics in these circumstances has been a real plus, not a negative.

It's much more enjoyable that way, I think.

Alex

I love debates....I can't help but express my opinions...hehe...it's in my nature. :awinky:

But what good is a debate where everyone agrees? Without opposite views the world (and debates) would be BORING!

As CJ said, debates aren't about winning or losing.....they are mostly about the spectators...the debatees being able to present their position in the best way to the spectators, in order for them to get the most well-rounded idea of the issues.

But debates are nothing without correct information. And, as we've seen on the board, many of us (including me) didn't have all the information in order to make an informed decision on where we stood.....hence, the learning begins.

I think we ALL learn in a debate....and I love to learn....so I guess that's why I love debates so much. :yowsa:

I had no idea about East Timor either.....

Can someone pass me a mocha decaf? Espresso gives me the jitters.
:groucho:

Gigi,

I've never won a debate in my life. I've never convinced anyone by the end of a conversation that I was right and they were wrong. I have, however, lost debates. I have admitted by the end of a debate that I was wrong. Winning is not a goal I am interested in. Losing is.

In 1996, I had the good fortune to teach a high-school debate class. One day I split the class into two groups at random. One was to argue for the legality of marijuana, the other that it should be illegal. It was a good debate and both sides made many excellent points. At the end, I asked them what their real opinion was. Seemingly miraculous, every student that had argued for it's legality was "pro" and every student that argued against was "con", even though the groups were chosen completely at random. Everyone claimed to have held their opinion all along.

I concluded the class with "there is your lesson for today".



Last edited by Colin at Mar 4 2003, 12:37 PM

Look, lets just whack RawAlex and be done with it ;)

HAHAHA, what a GREAT class!! And very revealing....

Soo, in the end, what did that class mean to you? What did you learn about debating? (other than the obvious) Did it change the way you debate? How you see debating? Did it ultimately negate the act of debating for you?

Very intriguing indeed....

Great question. I think I've learned much more from messageboards than I ever learned previously. We are all experts here!

For me, THE important question is "Why debate?"

To appear clever, to jostle in some strange mysterious pecking order, to win?

None of these things are worth anything in the end. They don't make you a better person and you probably can't win anyway. The whole point about a good debate is that two people have strong beliefs and strong reasons for them. Debating will usually solidify our resolve. It seldom weakens it. I think we are all familiar with having a knock-down, drag-out debate with someone and then thinking "what is WRONG with them?" Over a long period of time though, we sometimes slowly start to realize that some of what they were saying actually made sense.

So for me, I want to start down that process as soon as possible. Quickly ask .. Why do they think that? Where are they coming from? Are they less biased than I? Did they fluster me?
Frustrate me? Is my knowledge weak? Did they surprise me?

For me, the most exciting part of a debate is when someone presents something, either a morsel of knowledge or a thought, that I haven't heard before. At this point I must ask "Does this change my opinion"? If yes, I win. That was the goal in the first place. If no, I learned something anyway. I win again.

I think it is imperative, even noble, to present one's best argument and defense. Anticipate your "opponent's" best moves if possible. Only in this way will your "adversary" pull out all the stops and maybe somewhere find a backdoor into your mind.

:ph34r:

For me, the most exciting part of a debate is when someone presents something, either a morsel of knowledge or a thought, that I haven't heard before. At this point I must ask "Does this change my opinion"? If yes, I win. That was the goal in the first place. If no, I learned something anyway. I win again.

I think it is imperative, even noble, to present one's best argument and defense. Anticipate your "opponent's" best moves if possible. Only in this way will your "adversary" pull out all the stops and maybe somewhere find a backdoor into your mind.[/b][/quote]
very well said...

i have always learned more from debating than any other form of education. and surprisingly over time my opinions and beliefs come from both sides of any "argument" as opposed to defending or opposing an idea.

this has made me seem very "wishy washy" or that i don't have any strong convictions at all. that is simply not the case, i have just learned to see the gray through the black and white. i can literally argue one point of view one day, and then the next day argue the other side with equal passion and vigor.

hrmm...i think i need a beer...

My goal isn't necessarily changing my opinion....but rather to maybe learn a few things I didn't know before. Whether it changes my opinion, or solidifies my current one I'm still a winner. [and I'm guessing that's what you were saying all along...hahaha]

Sooo, now that we've changed this debate thread into a thread about debating.....I think we should get back to the debate!!

Now....where were we? :blink:

"carrie, you'll notice i've not started off any of my posts with 'i like you but ...'"

And this should impress me (or not) why?

"i've seen you around for about a year or so, we've conversed once before on netpond where you also jumped on me for a comment without reading what I was commenting on - seem familiar? I notice you do it regularly in your rhetoric, on all controversial subjects. I can't remember what subject it was in this case but it forms my opinion of you and your first post in this thread. "

Fascinating - the subject was so important that you can't even remember what it was, yet you find it relevant to basing the rest of your opinions, and your basis for argument, on.

"ummm ... which is it sweetie? are we discussing or arguing?"

The rest of us are discussing. You, however, seem to be arguing.

" I can do both"

I have yet to see evidence of this.

"now, onto addressing your points, because as little respect as I have for you, I do agree that there have not been any valid points addressed so far in our banter back and forward, just insults ... so, which questions did I sidestep?"

No dear, you were the one throwing insults, not I. As hard as you may try to bait me into it, I have yet to lower myself to your level.
As for which questions you sidestepped, it would be easy enough for you to browse back and discover this for yourself.

"I didn't see any questions in any of your posts just statements about what the rest of the world aren't doing to help america. "

Yes, it's evident that you haven't taken the time to read any of my posts, it's doubtful you even skimmed them. Yet still you feel the need to reply and throw barbs.

"and YES. i took great offence to your comment "

Congratulations. You have an opinion.

"But no, i don't think you are anti australia. i doubt you know where it is on the map."

Wow. Now that was truly, *truly* an insult worthy of the time it took to type. Really. (By the way, that's called sarcasm. You may want to look that up as well.)

"eagerly awaiting your 'questions'"

Don't bother - I'm not going to. You've exhibited the capacity to read - although the comprehension is questionable - so you're more than capable of finding those questions yourself.

If you want to continue overreacting to imagined insults and trying to find excuses to throw barbs in this and other threads - have fun. Some of us know better than to take what is said on message boards so personally. But hey, if grade-school name-calling is what floats your boat, more power to you. You show your true level of maturity with every attempt, especially when the posts go unanswered.

Which they will after this, because quite simply, "sweetie", you're not worth my time. If I want to hear a conversation based around name-calling and perceived self-importance, I can simply listen to my toddlers arguing over who gets to play with the Gameboy after dinner.

I believe they make medication for that now. You should look into it.

:nyanya:
:nyanya:



Last edited by Sword at Mar 5 2003, 03:02 AM

carrie, that was SUCH a copout

you claim I'm not worth the time to answer the real issues we were discussing in the thread and yet you have time to quote every single line from my post with a reason why you don't have the time to respond!!?!?!?!?

LAME!!!!

:rolleyes:

Kramer: Cat fight?

Elaine: Ok, WHY? Why do guys do this? What is so appealing to men about a cat fight?

Kramer: Yeye cat fight!

Jerry: Because men think if women are grabbing and clawing at each other there's a chance that.... they might somehow kiss.

Kramer: T-t-t-t...

http://www.pleasurelabs.com/pics/kr2.jpg

sorry to disappoint JR, carrie-on doesn't want to discuss things with me anymore because I remind her of her toddlers .....

she thinks i'm resorting to childish name calling!!

:o

don't know where she gets that idea from!!

:rolleyes:

Totally unrelated, but I just realized that I have had more threads named after me in the last 30 days than anyone else on Oprano... if that don't get me further up the "asshole" list nothing will!

Alex