Speaking of ways around things, it has been noticed by a few that VbV can be derailled by popup blocking software.

So here's a potential customer using VbV and they can't use it. Worse, because Visa has them listed as doing VbV, it supposedly forces them to have to use it, that is, the consumer cannot to side step it (from what I've heard) and are prevented from doing a normal CC join.

Now IF that is true, huge increase in lost sales. If that is true and if 3DSecure uses the same system, not good. If it instead shuffles them around elsewhere, and/or allows the surfer to use a normal join (should the window not pop up, good). But again from what I've heard it seems VISA never gave a thought to something as simple as a popup blocker or a surfer having JS turned off.

I really do hope they are not that dumb. But it wouldn't shock me if they were either.

Anyone have any info on this?



Last edited by Dravyk at Dec 9 2003, 01:42 AM

I was looking into opening a Merchant account in the USA for processing adult only.

I'm a little confused with all this, your mentioning that a lot of banks kicked merchant accounts out recently , all bar 1 US bank is accepting adult merchant accounts?

I currently use Epoch, should we open our own US merchant account to cut out the chance of Epoch and the other IPSP's going out of business? Or are adult processing merchants going to be a target as well

Our chargeback ratio is currently 0.08% as we sell a quality product and never do trials.

Thanks again

Oh btw, nice to find a board that talks business for once, glad to be a new member of Oprano :)

Matt

1. About listing Your sites under somebody's else company.
Well in my understanding it works the following way:

If I meet with You in a nice bar then change WHOIS info of all my domains to Your company name and put Your company name under all of my sites I guess there is no way anyone can prohibit me using Your merchant account for my sites for a fee to You.

Because virtually there is no real way to prove that my sites do not belong to You for an acquiring bank or visa. Actually nobody can do it I think unless we both go under criminal investigations for something else where our private financial information will be disclosed.

The problem is that if I do this stuff to this extent legally they belong to You as well. :D

So what happens is that You may wake up in the morning, talk to Your wife for a minute or two and then suddenly have this bright idea that a new Porsche purchased on my money will look ouch! so nice next to Your house and viola...I cant do anything legally.

In case of Ibill for example, for the court it doesnt matter what Ibill violates.

If there is a contract between me and Ibill, Ibill has to perform that contract. Technically even if a third party billing company has been not payed by it's acquirer the clients are supposed to get payed by law anyway.

For example.
We (RED & Partners B.V.) are going to issue an official complaint in court against Ginix soon somewhere in USA :D , in 1 week I think from now, and our lawyers have been preparing it for the last couple of monthes. Ginix bank - Manufacturers Bank , has withhold their moneys so they didnt pay us, we are forced to go to court. Although we are not idiots who are trying to get our money from a company who didnt get it. Ginix used to pay once per month, I havent heard as of yet about a single acquirer with monthly payments , especially in relation to PSPs, however Ginix claims the bank froze the whole month turnover, which is bullshit of course.

We had a good experience before with these things , although of course You never know the future, but a year and a half ago we almost started a court case against EBS AG in Germany which has withhold 500 000 euros of several resellers including us for the usage of their dialers.

By the way the funnies stuff is that according to my info VISA shares similar rules and ideas towards acquirers. Acquirers have a very vague rule from VISA which can be understood in so many ways that they are liable to a certain extent for the payout for clients of a PSP.
Never heard that any othem gave a shit though which doesnt make me suprised at all in these dangerous times. :D However most of the acquiring banks prefer to payout directly even working with PSPs which is a bit of an extra danger to them cause it's simplier to send money to the PSP and thus the PSP will always be held by their balls and will definetely perform more control over it's clients.

Back to the subject about listing Your sites under somebodys else company. I beleive that overall this is the easiest and safest way to process for smaller sites. However I think that it must be done in a REAL partnership way - i.e. share much more things than just processing. Share employees, content, ideas and promotion. Really merge. Than it will work and I have a feeling a lot of smaller companies will do it this way sooner or later.



2. About 3D Secure. We havent worked with it yet, so I have no idea.
However I think that if You build a fake webshop collecting 3D passwords
it is not THAT dangerous to the overall situation. Fake shops now are not that dangerous.

Let me explain.
A very simple question - who's gonna buy?
:D

The majority of stolen cards appear from existing shops or billing companies as well which were hacked and their base stolen.

Just as with CVV/CVC the 3D secure pass is forbidden to keep anywhere by PSPs or websites - it passed straight away to bank and back.
And I expect the technology and the control of it is better than with CVVs which are being kept by most merchants in breach with the rules because otherwise it's impossible to run rebills on Your new merchant account when Your old one is fucked.
That's how hackers get them I think.

If You build a fake webshop to get a lot of cards You need a SHITLOAD of promotion. Otherwise You get no buyers. And if You do make a lot of promotion You get noticed fast.
That's why hackers prefer existing shops I beleive.

Although of course there will be chargebacks. It's just when everything possible has been done to protect the cardholder if he once pays that chargeback himself may be he finally will fucking care where he shows his card? Dont You think so?

Hey Redeye, it's been a long time since we last talked..... hope you are doing fine. :)

Great info you posted here. My knowledge on this area is extremely limited and unfortunately very few persons are in position to provide info and answer such questions. I'm waiting to see KK's remarks as well, so I'll get a complete view on how these things work.

Do you use ibill EU or you have a registered co. in states now?

If I could make a wish for 2004, that would be the implementation of all these verified by visa and 3d systems. What we need is a CB free environment.

On the the promised/delivered issue I do understand it's crucial to make valid promo claims and not promise the sky, while delivering nothing.

I guess KK is talking about the Paris Hilton video. I was talking with the traffic manager of a big PPS sponsor that allows their affiliates (one of the many) to send such traffic while their members area doesnt have the video. When I asked him if they are afraid of the CBs I didn't get a complete answer, because he didn't have further info on this issue. I got informed though that they have more than a few affiliates doing from 75 to 300 joins/day all from Paris Hilton traffic. Few thousands more joins per day are tempting almost for everyone......

Its a difficult question.
The bank is FDMS (First Data Merchant Services). You can get there through www.cardserviceint.com

I will not comment on existing billing companies and besides we use Epoch at the moment ourselves.
:D

Spare me guys!!!
:D :D :D

Hey Soul_Rebel!
Indeed long time no see! Glad to hear from Ya!
:D

Company in USA? IbillEU?
I am almost Dutch now!
:D :D :D

In the heart (and passport which is more important) I am still a Russian...
:D Which gives everyone creeps as usual.

We now got several companies and real office with Dutch guys in Netherlands and few more companies around (in USA of course too as well). We use several merchant accounts of our own at the moment for the old stuff and some of the new stuff I run and keep using a few billing companies as well.

rapid changes :)

i always admire how you follow all changes and manage to stay on top of the things :)

In order to prevent this, VISA has what they call the "personal message":

From the Verified by VISA Q&A:

Q: What is a Personal Message?

A: Your Personal Message appears in your password screen when you make purchases. When the Verified by Visa window appears during the purchase process you should always check to see that your Personal Message appears correctly. This confirms that it's an authentic Verified by Visa window.

This issue is also mentioned in the Verified by VISA Q&A:

Q: I have a pop-up killer installed on my computer. Will Verified by Visa work for me?

A: Many participating online stores have implemented Verified by Visa so that your Verified by Visa password window will appear in a pop-up, or new browser window. If you have software installed on your computer that automatically closes browser windows that are not generated by you, then this may also prevent your Verified by Visa password window from appearing. You will need to disable the pop-up killer software when you make purchases at participating online stores.

-=-

So, it appears to me that if a popup killer breaks the process, the shop/billing company has created an implementation that is to blame because it relies on popups. In other words: you can implement it without using them..

This has to be the most informative thread ever posted on a messageboard.

Thanks RedEye!

In order to prevent this, VISA has what they call the "personal message":

From the Verified by VISA Q&A:

Q: What is a Personal Message?

A: Your Personal Message appears in your password screen when you make purchases. When the Verified by Visa window appears during the purchase process you should always check to see that your Personal Message appears correctly. This confirms that it's an authentic Verified by Visa window.[/b][/quote]
They can try to protect it 100% but it won't be 100% protected. Surfers are ignorant and not really upto date on that sort of thing and it would be super easy to steal all their info if you wanted. Maybe 20% might not give there info if it didn't have the personal message. I'm just thinking if visa was to say "ok you signed up via 3dsecure you can't chargeback" the system would have to be perfect but given the nature of the business they can't say that so other rules must apply and chargebacks will still remain.

If I owned a merchant account with one of these banks would they have the power to shut me down at any time they likes just cause they don't want to process for adult anymore?

They can try to protect it 100% but it won't be 100% protected. Surfers are ignorant and not really upto date on that sort of thing and it would be super easy to steal all their info if you wanted. Maybe 20% might not give there info if it didn't have the personal message. I'm just thinking if visa was to say "ok you signed up via 3dsecure you can't chargeback" the system would have to be perfect but given the nature of the business they can't say that so other rules must apply and chargebacks will still remain.

If I owned a merchant account with one of these banks would they have the power to shut me down at any time they likes just cause they don't want to process for adult anymore?[/b][/quote]
That depends on the bank and the country the bank is located.
In most EU countries I doubt it.

In USA, Russia and other such places the bank does exactly what they want to do.

However since it's a bank they never do shit like that in 1 day early in the morning cause the mood is ugly and there were too many traffic jams.

I guess it will be valuable to hear comments from dudes who lost merchant accounts at Humbolt for example. And I mean specifically those who lost them not due to chargebacks but due to the bank policy to stay away from adult.

P.S. It MUST depend on the agreement and the law in any given place as well.

Any merchant processing agreement has cancellation terms and the normal duration of the agreement. For example one year.

And if that was not enough any given agreement or it's term is always governed by the law in the area. So if the law says that an account in the bank can not be frozen without prior written notice in 2 month no matter what - than be it.

This system only covers the authentication disputes (the "I didn't do it" chargebacks :-).
For VbV transactions, the merchant is NOT liable for such chargebacks.

So this shifts the problem to another party. I think to the bank? That would be a good motivation for the banks to educate their users and make sure they actually use the presented methods to verify they are not being conned.
I agree with you that users are usually ignorant, and this seems like an impossible task.

Maybe the end result will be that banks will simply motivate their cardholders to do another type of chargeback? Which will bring us back to where we are today.. ;-(

This system only covers the authentication disputes (the "I didn't do it" chargebacks :-).
For VbV transactions, the merchant is NOT liable for such chargebacks.

So this shifts the problem to another party. I think to the bank? That would be a good motivation for the banks to educate their users and make sure they actually use the presented methods to verify they are not being conned.
I agree with you that users are usually ignorant, and this seems like an impossible task.

Maybe the end result will be that banks will simply motivate their cardholders to do another type of chargeback? Which will bring us back to where we are today.. ;-([/b][/quote]
there's always the old faithful "product was not as described" lie.

And, per Serge - he's a yoot! Amazing how he's can post useful information while the others are posting pictures of their pot, bongs and pipes. :P

I've got two questions that I've been trying to get answered but the west coast folks aren't in their offices yet (arrghh@time zones)...

I've had my own merchant account for years, but it was originally set up as doing online *mainstream* transactions. Still high-risk I would think, as it was for services (web hosting). Would I be able to use this for adult transactions?

Second question - if I can't or don't use the merchant account, would it be possible to go through Visa registration as a sole proprietorship and then update that paperwork when our LLC papers come through? It seems there are backups in all of the state offices here and we have no idea when the papers will show up. It could be another 2 months and that just isn't going to work.

Unfortunately you cannot run adult transactions through a merchant account which is not coded 5967 for Adult Video Text. If you do so and get caught you will lose your account and may face penalities....not a good idea.

As for question 2, this would be up to the underwriter of the merchant account.

Clay
EPOCH

Thanks Clay! I had just tried calling and talking to Larry but he wasn't in yet. This helps :)

Damn interesting thread. :okthumb:

Apprecite the info, Art! Thanks.

Unfortunately you cannot run adult transactions through a merchant account which is not coded 5967 for Adult Video Text. If you do so and get caught you will lose your account and may face penalities....not a good idea.

As for question 2, this would be up to the underwriter of the merchant account.

Clay
EPOCH[/b][/quote]
Damn.
5967 - That's the number.
:D

there's always the old faithful "product was not as described" lie.[/b][/quote]
"pornography was not as described"
- such a good claim for a bank.

:D

With one of the acquirers I know of, Online Pharmacy processing, viagra dudes and penis enlargement dudes, are considered low risk (like retail e-commerce).

For some reason their customers dont call banks to complain that their dicks did not become any bigger or they dont get erection.
LOL!
:D :D :D

This has been a fantastic thread. Cheers. :matey:

:bwave: yes very interesting thread, I regged my nick, just to read it!

And, per Serge - he's a yoot! Amazing how he's can post useful information while the others are posting pictures of their pot, bongs and pipes. :P[/b][/quote]
oh the irony of a board handle...

:nyanya:

oh the irony of a board handle...

:nyanya:[/b][/quote]
Good point, LOL!!! :lol: Maybe he's really a good old Southern boy and was referring to red-eye gravy. B)

Smoking pot and drinking are things which I have zero problem with. Posting pictures of your pot, pipes, bongs and liquor bottles is a bit juvenile, IMHO. :awinky:

Then again, I post pictures of my dogs, so who am I to cast the first stone? :P

Good point, LOL!!! :lol: Maybe he's really a good old Southern boy and was referring to red-eye gravy. B)

Smoking pot and drinking are things which I have zero problem with. Posting pictures of your pot, pipes, bongs and liquor bottles is a bit juvenile, IMHO. :awinky:

Then again, I post pictures of my dogs, so who am I to cast the first stone? :P[/b][/quote]
hahaha

Negative Nancy is always around!

Dogs aren't illegal, though.
And I'd love to see some recent pics :)

interesting stuff, needs a bump :)

and yes, hi to all, I am new here :bwave:

Nice posts Redeye. There are minor things here or there that you may not be fully informed on, or have gotten slightly wrong, but with the situation as complex and fluid as it is, NO ONE is in a position to know everything that is going on in each VISA region (and with individual acquirers for that matter). Within the various regions other processing solutions open and close on an everchanging basis...as regards to MCC 5967, and it's been REALLY nuts every since the ETA show last Sept. when the IPSP regs were rolled out by Martin Elliots people in Seattle.

Sometimes it gives me really bad headaches trying to keep up. I still work as a broker to assist merchants in finding accounts (mostly offshore...and BTW, there is ONE acquirer in the EU that is writing new IPSP business), but I have recently moved to DUOCASH....in looking at alternate billing systems, they were the ones that excited me the most. (someone actually started a thread about DUOCASH yesterday).

If you're going to be at internext in Jan, I would be interested in comparing some notes over a drink sometime....

BTW, Just to match what you say about the VISA rules. I've actually seen them.....leafed through them.....they look like a set of encyclopedia!

Cheers!

Hey Mike!
Thanks for the comment. Indeed NO ONE knows it all - that's true.

Thats a negative side of membership association form of VISA/MC I beleive.

Unfortunately I will not be on Internext. Never been there yet and dont know when I'll get there.
:)
Although never know where I am next time.

Carrie,

You cannot run adult transactions through a mainstream merchant account. You will need to setup another account and pay the registration fees if domestic.

You can setup an account as a sole proprietor. however and LLC is typically quick to setup and is recommended.

Let me know if you are interested in obtaining an account. We can surely help.

Toll Free within the US: (888)357-8166
Outside the US: (661)252-2456

Thank you, Mitch Farber
Netbilling.com

Hi Matt,

There are a few banks that we work with domestically that write adult accounts.

Let me know if you are interested.

-----------

Driven,

VbV can be used for initial transactions only, no recurring billings. The problem is with our internal testing is that more surfers are abandoning the payment page because of confusion using VbV. Untill the banks issue paswords to all cardholders and do not make them pre-register online for VBV, it will not be effective for widespread use IMO.

Mitch

Hi Matt,

There are a few banks that we work with domestically that write adult accounts.

Let me know if you are interested.

-----------

Driven,

VbV can be used for initial transactions only, no recurring billings. The problem is with our internal testing is that more surfers are abandoning the payment page because of confusion using VbV. Untill the banks issue paswords to all cardholders and do not make them pre-register online for VBV, it will not be effective for widespread use IMO.

Mitch[/b][/quote]
Mitch (if that's You), You say You got a few domestic banks doing adult merchant accounts in USA?
Do they all code it as adult?

Mitch (if that's You), You say You got a few domestic banks doing adult merchant accounts in USA?
Do they all code it as adult?[/b][/quote]
Hi,

Yes, they do code the accounts as adult 5967. Whay did you ask "Mitch (if that's You)"? Is there someone out there impersonating me?

:-)

Mitch

Nope, sorry.
I just saw NETBILLING, and didnt notice "Mitch" signature.

I'm getting old...
:D :D :D

By the way, cool news about US banks.

Has anyone else noticed that 5967 makes an "X" on a number pad?

(Strange coincedences.)

no, it does not

no, it does not[/b][/quote]
a really funny looking X :)

5968 would have made an X, but 5967 is pushing it IMO