And the same people now giggling that no WMD were found are the same people that were insisting they would be found EVEN IF THE U.S. HAD TO PLANT THEM....

But the evil Bush administration didn't do that, either...

Paranoia must be fun....

And the govt is doing this, despite the bad publicity and understandable (but predictable) criticism of the administration....because...

He has bad breath?[/b][/quote]
Oral Hygiene is very important.

And the same people now giggling that no WMD were found are the same people that were insisting they would be found EVEN IF THE U.S. HAD TO PLANT THEM....

But the evil Bush administration didn't do that, either...

Paranoia must be fun....[/b][/quote]
Yet..

Does anyone care to make a wager that before the election there is a "Major Victory" in the war against terrorism?

- Saddam Captured
- Osama's Body Found
- WMD Found
- Terrorist Plot Foiled

Mr Bush did just go on a secret mission to Iraq!!!! He may have personally planted something ;))

tik-tak-tik-tak...
;-)))

HA! It's been cleared up that the Bush administration is doing this because he's of Mexican descent. In addition, they love the bad publicity it brings to their doings and the understandable complaints and concerns that people like KC will have....

It COULDN'T be legitimate National Security issues.....it just COULDN'T....
After all....it's Bush!

HA! It's been cleared up that the Bush administration is doing this because he's of Mexican descent. In addition, they love the bad publicity it brings to their doings and the understandable complaints and concerns that people like KC will have....

It COULDN'T be legitimate National Security issues.....it just COULDN'T....
After all....it's Bush![/b][/quote]
My point is National Security Issue or not... American Citzens have rights. We'll see in a couple days what the appeals court says.

The system will sort it out. ;)

Your profound faith in believing everything the government spoon feeds you is most refreshing, DJ. Naive, but refreshing. :D

Im worried more about those poor baby seals!

HA! It's been cleared up that the Bush administration is doing this because he's of Mexican descent. In addition, they love the bad publicity it brings to their doings and the understandable complaints and concerns that people like KC will have....

It COULDN'T be legitimate National Security issues.....it just COULDN'T....
After all....it's Bush![/b][/quote]
..and if they can play KC like a fiddle-
they can play ANYBODY,
Carrie was right....
;-))))

The deuce you say!! :P

and where is KC, may I ask?
KC, do American Baby Seals have rights?????

Your profound faith in believing everything the government spoon feeds you is most refreshing, DJ. Naive, but refreshing. :D[/b][/quote]
I believe in the most logical and reasonable answer, Dravyk...

Are they holding him incommunicado for a good reason or aren't they?

Why this man? How did Zacarias Moussaoui get a trial and he's not even a citizen (if I recall)?

When in doubt, the simplest answer is usually correct. There is NO reason not to charge him and bring the case before the pubic...

UNLESS...there is a reason...

and where is KC, may I ask?
KC, do American Baby Seals have rights?????[/b][/quote]
I don't think the Bill of Rights extend to baby Seals. However, the Endangered Species Act probably does!!

If they couldn't get enough juicy intel out of the guy after a year and a half without cousel, then they really suck.

A year and a half he's had time to heal all of his broken limbs TWICE!!!



Last edited by KC at Dec 1 2003, 01:32 AM

I say put him in a room with Confucy....

If he gets out sane...send him back to Mexico...

I believe in the most logical and reasonable answer, Dravyk...

Are they holding him incommunicado for a good reason or aren't they?

Why this man? How did Zacarias Moussaoui get a trial and he's not even a citizen (if I recall)?

When in doubt, the simplest answer is usually correct. There is NO reason not to charge him and bring the case before the pubic...

UNLESS...there is a reason...[/b][/quote]
These Thomas Jefferson quotes are handy!!

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be."

"[The People] are the ultimate, guardians of their own liberty."

I believe in the most logical and reasonable answer, Dravyk...

Are they holding him incommunicado for a good reason or aren't they?

Why this man? How did Zacarias Moussaoui get a trial and he's not even a citizen (if I recall)?

When in doubt, the simplest answer is usually correct. There is NO reason not to charge him and bring the case before the pubic...

UNLESS...there is a reason...[/b][/quote]
I honestly like someone who uses logic, as that is on such short supply in general, DJ.

That said ... and while your questions have merit taken on their own ... when other questions of history are put to it, water them down ...

Has our government ever lied to us before that we later found out about? Where they considered wrong for having done so? Do governments in general lie and do this same thing?

... I could go on, but just the few mentioned give me a healthy case of suspicion and more than a reasonable doubt. Time will tell.

Great quotes!

And I take them to mean we should be vigilant in locking up terrorists, protect our National Security, and not let ignorance about people's freedom affect our liberty...

I'd get a patent on that! :D

C'mon, Dravyk....who are you talking to? I despise government FAR more than you and would bet my posting record reflects same... :ph34r:

The government lies all the time. That is not the question....
However, goverment lies for a PURPOSE....good or bad....

What purpose do they have for keeping this individual without due process? What are they gaining? What are they receiving in exchange for the heat of keeping a US citizen without council or trial?

We can believe they have a very good reason for doing this....and ONLY to this guy (well...maybe a couple others)...

Or we can believe it's because Mexican-Hating Space Aliens have taken over the White House and are keeping him until he reveals the Taco Bell secret sauce recipe...

If you're gonna be paranoid, why limit yourself?

Great quotes!

And I take them to mean we should be vigilant in locking up terrorists, protect our National Security, and not let ignorance about people's freedom affect our liberty...[/b][/quote]
I was wondering if you were taking that position just to disagree. Thanks for verifying it!! ;)

Try to spin this T. Jefferson quote:

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."

I'm glad my ACLU dues are paid up!

http://archive.aclu.org/court/padilla.pdf

Here's a nice paragraph:

Ok, my friend, now who do YOU think you're talking to? :)

I didn't know we were debating whether the government thinks it has a reason, duh! Everybody has a reason. A beneficial one, a manevolent one, a delusion one. Insane people and sane people alike have reasons and so do governments -- constantly.

I thought the discussion was one was it a justifiable reason and, whatever the answer to that was yes or no, was it one that it should supercede our laws and our liberties?

As for paranoia, sorry, I don't do that. Enough REAL shit to be genuinely scared of in this life, thank you. :)

KC ... :okthumb:

My favorite Thomas Jefferson quote..

"Honey... send in the slave and close the door..this might take a while.."

Here are a couple of my favorite George Bush quotes:

"You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."

"I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe - I believe what I believe is right."

"We need an energy bill that encourages consumption."

Reading all this made me wonder .....

Would you kill for a Nobel Peace Prize?
:blink:

Jefferson was the first HIPPY of his time
;-)))

@#$%$#^& Liberals don't know or understand the difference between criminals and POW's!

Personally, I think he should be shot as a spy.

Nice try, Comrade; but no cigar...

Oh, and no use quoting things like Jefferson or the Federalist Papers, or the Declaration Of Independence. Important, they are; in the Constitution, they are NOT.



Last edited by Torone at Dec 1 2003, 06:39 AM

Serge, my statements here have nothing to do with porn and everything to do with my life in the future and my childrens' lives.
I keep bringing it down to adult biz analogies because that's the one thing we all have in common and as such everyone should easily understand those analogies.

DJ, you're trusting that the gov't knows better than we do with your "they MUST have a good reason" theory. I'm sure Matrix thinks they had a good reason to sell us all out too, but that doesn't mean it really *was* a good reason or it was the right thing to do - and their "reason" is certainly not good enough to violate our privacy.

I'm sure Janet Reno thought she had a "good enough reason" as well when she gave the order to storm Waco and slaughter children.

Every day thousands of men and women think they've got a "good enough reason" to steal from their employers...

I don't think that the gov't knows better than I do. Hell, just look at how they take my money and spend it every year.

First of all, I'm not a liberal.

Secondly, this guy was ARRESTED by the civillian police on US soil for a "material witness warrant".

Last time I checked the Police didn't have authority to capture POWs.

Try reading the whole thread and staying caught up before you pipe up.

I'm sure Janet Reno thought she had a "good enough reason" as well when she gave the order to storm Waco and slaughter children.

************************************************** *********

is that a fact or your OPINION?

First of all, I'm not a liberal.

Secondly, this guy was ARRESTED by the civillian police on US soil for a "material witness warrant".

Last time I checked the Police didn't have authority to capture POWs.

Try reading the whole thread and staying caught up before you pipe up.[/b][/quote]
check your facts again and Police arrests of German collaborators in NY during the WWII

What exactly?
That Janet Reno gave the order to go in to Waco, that children were slaughtered, or that Reno had a good reason?

The first two are facts, the third would be Janet's opinion, not mine.

What exactly?
That Janet Reno gave the order to go in to Waco, that children were slaughtered, or that Reno had a good reason?

The first two are facts, the third would be Janet's opinion, not mine.[/b][/quote]
Children were slaughtered by their parents and David what's his name?

nice try manipulating facts, Carrie
;-)))

Serge do you honestly believe that *all* of those children were murdered at the hands of their parents, and that *none* of them died from all of the bullets being fired into the building or from the fires, etc?

Children were slaughtered by their parents and David what's his name?

nice try manipulating facts, Carrie
;-)))[/b][/quote]
That's the government's version; of course the government lied and said they didn't use any flammable ordinance and that no military was present.

You, Serge, should know better than the rest of us that 75% of what the government tells us is lies when they do something right, and 100% of what the government tells us is lies when they do something bad.

And if Waco doesn't work for you, try Ruby Ridge -- they butchered a man's whole family because the FBI Sniper Team needed some practice.

yes, I do....and unless you can prove otherwise,
your argument is as priceless as a speculation on how many devils can dance on the tip of the needle

yes, I do....and unless you can prove otherwise,
your argument is as priceless as a speculation on how many devils can dance on the tip of the needle[/b][/quote]
That's an interesting position, Serge, because this is how I remember it:

1. Everything was calm, no fires.
2. Reno's jack-booted thugs smash tanks into the compound and fire smoke grenades everywhere.
3. Fires break out and everyone in there dies.
4. The government says no military personnel were present.
5. Delta Force operatives say they were present.
6. The government says no flammable ordinance was used.
7. Flammable ordinance is found to have been used.

Well, anyway, I guess we can all agree to disagree, but I don't trust bureaucrats any more than I trust Muslim Terrorists. I'll use the former to kill off the latter, but that doesn't mean the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Serge, because this is how I remember it:
***************************************

and how old were you when it happened?

In my 20s, but what has that got to do with anything?

Serge I love this country as much as you do. I understand that our gov't is far better than the system you came from. But that doesn't mean you should have blind faith in it. Our country is great *because* we have the right to question, the right to speak out without fear of being shot, and the right to change things.

Politicians lie. Gov't is made up of politicians. Blindly trusting the gov't to tell you the truth 100% of the time will make our system no better than Russia's was.