Pro-choice. No one has the right to "do what they want with their body". By that logic, everyone should be able to do shoot up heroin, smoke crack, and should sure as hell be able to drive down the street without a seatbelt.

I'm pro-abortion.

as long as you don't do #1 and or #2 while doing #3


.... eh Fuck if I know

Alex is having a political debate. I am having an apolitical one.

This is why we can never agree. <_<

"never teach a pig to sing. it will just waste your time and annoy the pig"

Notice Alex that no one has accused you of being balanced? in your mind it is because everyone else does not "get it", the are "brainwashed" and they "just can't see the truth". however, if thats what you need to tell yourself, to both tolerate yourself and struggle through one more day of being Alex, its understandable. living a life of paranoia, insecurity and fear cant be a easy thing to deal with and i wont pretend to feel your pain. i will simply give you my sympathy.

Here is a perfect example of the absurdity of being you:

one side is biased... because they dont agree with you and your views. you clearly have opposite political views... yet you feel you have a perfectly balanced opinion. hmm... how does that work Alex? How is it that Colins perception of Rush Limbaugh is less valid than yours because he may be "more likely to agree with him" and your views are MORE valid because you may be LESS likely to agree with him?

has it not yet occured to you that your views may possibly be slightly less than balanced? You are so far left on the political scale that you have created a whole new territory of "i hate all Republican assholes" and you feel that you are the only one that see the whole truth?

your attitude and is no different than that of Hitler, of Charles Manson or of any serial killer who heard voices in his head telling him to kill. They all "saw something NO ONE else saw" - the all believed it to be the truth. The all believed that they say the "true facts". Of course comparing your attitude and warped perceptions of the world to those of Charles Mansons may not be a fair comparison since significantly more people agreed with him than with you.

why dont you start the thread you are really waiting to start - "America never went to the moon and anyone who believed it is a friggin moron"




Last edited by -= JR =- at Mar 31 2003, 03:58 PM

JR, I am so sorry. You are right, I am wrong. You are perfect. You are the best. One day I will have all the knowledge you do, and then I will be the second best person in the world, because you will be the best. You are totally perfect, non-biased, totally informed, and always 100% on the ball.

I am in awe.

Alex

Alex i am beginning to suspect that sense of "awe" you feel 24/7 is actually autism. Though of course i am flattered, i feel that its only right to tell you that it has nothing to do with me.

I NEVER said i am right, i know more or my opinion is better than anyone elses. I simply know the difference between opinion and fact.

I state opinions. I say what i "think". I dont think that my opinions are any better than anyone elses. I dont waste my time saying things like "you just dont get it" - because unlike you, i realize that more often than not, there is the possibility that "i just dont get it".

I think you are an ass. not because i dissagree with you. not because i know that we have opposite or opposing views politically... not because i am probably a little more conservative in my views than you. i think your an ass because you spend all of your time trying to subtly explain to people why they are fucked in the head, why your opinions are actaully fact and why in spite of your obvious political bias, that your opinion is the only balanced opinion on this green earth.

you can keep making stupid replys and repeating the same thing again and again "you are right, i am wrong" etc. or you could try for once to defend yourself and your aguments.

be a man and explain this:


You try to make the point that Colins opinion about Rush Limbaugh is less valid than your opinion about Rush Limbaugh because Colin may be more likely to agree with Rush Limbaugh than you.

You then continue to argue that your opinion is MORE valid because you dont agree with Rush Limbaugh but dont seem to acknowledge that since you dont agree with Rush Limbaugh you may in fact be more likely to see anything he would see in a negative light which in my opinion is no more balanced than agreeing with him.

Go out on a limb big guy and explain to me and others how Colins view may be biased in this example, whiles yours would not be.




Last edited by -= JR =- at Mar 31 2003, 11:19 PM

Interesting, I've never heard someone who's pro-choice say they're against any other alternatives. That's what the "choice" part is about, with abortion being just one of a few.

And going by Colin's definition, I'd have to say I'm definitely pro-choice. Shoot all the heroin you want, smoke all the crack you want -- as long as your choices don't infringe on other people's, by imperiling or depriving them of life, liberty or property, fuckin' have at it, I say. Legalize all drugs and tax it heavily enough to cover rehab programs... works for me.

Except perhaps for the Death Penalty position, I'm "pro" pretty much everything else on your list, OldJeff. That matter I'm still mulling over (along with open borders and free trade).

JR, you are right again. You are right about everything. Everyone should just stop thinking and follow what you say. You are perfect.

You are the man.

Alex

why would anyone stop thinking Alex? how did i say or imply that?

I see quite a bit of evidence that you think very little as it is and i certainly would not encourage you to think less. the world does not need a drooling, diaper wearing, RawAlex 200 pound paperweight.

how about just pointing out what it is that i dont understand in your logic that seems to me to be clearly flawed?

jesus JR, get over it already!!
don't you have anything better to do than give alex shit day after day?!!!?

:rolleyes:

Fuck! I knew i was doing something wrong! I'll be over there--> working and makin some $ if anybody doesnt want to continue this discussion :)

I still stand by my saying... and nobody yet has disagreed with it..

I just want a president who can beat me in a spelling bee... thats all :) :yowsa:



Last edited by Hooper at Apr 1 2003, 01:14 AM

hooper, you can't expect a president to spell AND run the country!!!

that's what pa's are for!!

cj, the funniest part is that he just doesn't get the humor... and doesn't realize that any question that starts with some variation of "hey asshole" doesn't get much attention...

But, he's the man. he is perfect. he knows this and is just playing. Got to love them those perfect people come down and play with us mere mortal 200 pound paperweights.

Alex

i agree, but ....


you stop it too young man or you'll go to your room and no television and NO COMPUTER for a week!!

and if that's not enough, both of you can stay in your room together until you sort this out like mature adults!!

and if you STILL can't behave appropriately, i'll send you both to daddy serge's house for a week and have him describe the last 6 weeks with a kidney stone in explicit detail!!!

NOW BEHAVE YOU 2!!!!




:biglaugh: :P :nyanya: :biglaugh: :P :nyanya:

CJ, i admit that i am being very childish at times. sometimes its just to vent. sometimes its just because i personally find humor in something i posted.

Its his constant condescending tone, while trying to explain to everyone they are wrong that annoys me. its one thing to present an opinion and defend it. its another thing entirely to present opinion as fact, talk down to people because they have different views and then begin posts with remarks like "you just dont get it" while dancing around the questions.

I have tremendous respect for PornoDoggy. He has changed my views on many things and caused me to come more to center due to his ability to provide a balanced argument. He often does so knowing that the odds are not in his favor when he presents an argument that he knows will not be popular.

Alex simply spends his time trying to get everyone to understand that Alex is right. that Alex's perceptions are the only truths and that his opinions are fact. that to me is really annoying. it does not make it right for me to flip him shit... but at the same time, he does it while evading tough questions because he knows where they are leading. which really annoys me to no end.

People can attack me all they want. people have and people sometimes do. anyone who gets offended by something said on a messageboard has no business posting on messageboards. all messageboards are the same... whether they are about math, religion, investing or porn. the characters are the same... the conversations are the same and the arguments are often the same.

MikeAI, Vick and others were calling me a traitor and Communist when i was suggesting it was contradictory to assassinate Hussein in the name of democracy and freedom to choose. thats life. i dont respect them any less and i understand their opinions and why they feel strongly about what they said. they made their points and defended them. i respect that. thats what messageboards are often about. its almost never pretty. its certainly what this messageboard is about. i certainly never got pissy about it, threatened lawsuits or threatened to hurt them, their families and their business as Alex did with me.

I do have better things to do that flip him shit everyday BTW. i have reduced myself to flipping him shit every 3-4 days now.

i read half of this and i'm bored.

you've said it over and over, and its still a lame argument. you are posting to me, but really you are using it as a big disguise for yet another random dig at alex.

you see it that he is claiming he is right, i see it as he is arguing a point he feels might be right and is trying to get you to understand but you have absolutely no intention of trying to understand it because you've already made up your mind.

its frustrating reading it because you are both usually trying to say exactly the same thing, but you are both so stubborn and childish over whatever big dick contest you have going on that you sit there picking apart sentence structure and single words and trying to trap each other into saying shit that you can use as ammunition in your argument of WHY ALEX/JR IS A MORON.

you obviously both know a whole bunch of stuff the other one doesn't and you obviously both have strengths of knowledge in specific areas and weaknesses in others. both of you continue to raise valid points, but you will never learn from each other because you are too busy picking apart every verb and suffix you don't agree with!

for fucks sake, is it really all that important??!?!?

now, finish doing your chores and go straight back to your rooms!!!

:heil: :heil: :heil:

no, its really not.

i am going to my room now.
:(

you had to go and do the sad face

oh ok then you can have some icecream with chocolate sauce, i'll even make it for you






* see why lisa only sends her kids over for short periods?!?!?!?
:biglaugh:

cj, that's the reason I won't play with JR anymore on the boards... it isn't going anywhere... it just ain't fun like this...

can I have some ice cream too? :P

Alex

only if you can play nice!!!

i had this image of the 2 of you locked in a room, with a pile of encyclopedia's and reference books around you, both yelling at each other about the decor, and how it relates to politics.

:biglaugh:

fuck, now i feel like an icecream sundae with banana and crushed nuts and chocolate fudge ... of this list, i can eat the banana. yippee!

Alex, if you think Rush is bad, you should take a listen to Michael Savage.
Let's just say he's the right-wing Howard Stern of politics.
I despise him and the self-tooting horn he rode in on.

I used to be pro-abortion, and then I got pregnant and realized I had a baby in me.
Now, I don't see abortion as "birth control" (which should be called "pregnancy control" because it stops pregnancy, not birth), I see it as killing a baby.
If that makes me a wacko, so be it.

Btw, back to the original question of the thread - I voted for Bush. The thought of Gore being President literally terrified me, with his national ID card and national database and all of that socialist crap.
Do I agree with everything Bush has done? Hell no.
And doesn't it figure, the only Democrat I would've loved to have voted for just got put into prison. *sigh* (Beam me up, Scotty!)

ok. i will be nice and explain myself in the nicest way possible because i feel that this is an important behavior to notice when it comes to politics. we are all guilty of being biased. we all think we are not.

first let me clear the air and say that i personally dont like Rush Limbaugh at all. i share many of the same opinions that Alex does.

But this is about a basic flaw in human behavior that we all have, not about politics or Rush Limbaugh.

here is what Alex said:

this is what i am trying to say:

Alex characterizes Colins opinion of Rush Limbaugh as being biased because Colin is more likely to agree with what Rush Limbaugh says (supported by the political test which for the sake of this conversation can assume is accurate)

Alex then admits repeatedly to having a negative opinion of Rush Limbaugh and has said in the past that he has a negative opinion of Rush Limbaugh listeners - and used that fact to say that his opinion is MORE balanced because he is more likely to see the negative side of Rush Limbaughs preachings (i.e. the "half truths" etc).

What i was trying to point out (in the wrong way obviously) is that Alex is also biased (admittedly) AGAINST Rush Limbaugh which also causes him to both view Rush Limbaugh and his opinions in a negative light. It causes him to focus more on the "half truths" rather than weigh each thing said on its own merits. i think that the only way he could argue that his opinion about Rush Limbaugh is more valid than Colins is if he could prove that he had absolutely no opinion whatsoever about Conservative and Liberal politics and the Republican and Democratic parties, Rush Limbaughs politics and Colin.

Its my belief that we all behave pretty much in this way. we all see people, opinions, beliefs and ideas that we agree with in a more favorable light and those that we disagree with in a more negative light and we are almost incapable of weighing them evenly and without bias. i personally dont think its possible to do so.

This plays out on GFY at least 100 times a day. "CNN is propoganda, Channel 5 in Porvo, Finland tells the real truth (or the "my news is better than your news" debate)" - the reality is that one side is telling the news from a perspective that is relevent to the USA, US politics and current events that effect the USA and the other is telling the news from the perspective of people who live in a tiny, sleepy town in the Baltic Sea whos greatest concerns are how to grow a better potato and certainly not where is "osama bin laden" and "how do we deal with terrorism in the 21st century". This is what i believe to be the "accidental bias" of media worldwide. it leads to opinions and world views that are accidentally biased. no matter how bad we dont want to believe that they are.

I dont believe that i am balanced in any of my opinions. i try to be. i want to believe at times that i am. but i really dont even believe that its possible to be. i find myself constantly accepting statements from people i like, agree with or respect with less question than those of people who i dont - at which point i then immediately find 6000 ways to rip that statement and that person apart. Alex does the same thing in my opinion... but he does so while trying to present admittedly biased opinions as balanced and accurate facts.

[Deleted due to inappropriate material] - Serge



Last edited by Colin at Apr 1 2003, 05:21 AM

[Deleted due to inappropriate material] - Serge

http://www.fair.org/press-releases/limbaug...es-reality.html

not eeeeeeven close.

Dig,

How's life? :)

http://www.fair.org/press-releases/limbaug...es-reality.html

not eeeeeeven close.[/b][/quote]
What the fuck was that? It certainly offered no proof of anything except your liberal bias...

Torone, what would be proving bias by posting a link that points out a lot of errors in Rush Limbaughs book (a book of which its main purpose was to discredit liberals) and remarks on his radio show

does this prove something about Dig?

what about this remark:

or this:

what about this nice one:

I have never seen edits like that before. I am impressed, I guess.

JR, I read your entire thing... one word stood out in the "quotes" section:

"PROBABLY".

You are taking for fact things that I am saying are probable. I remember Colin's little X/Y po;litical chart being something like +5 -1, or so... fairly strongly on the conservative side of things. On that basis, he probably agrees with Rush much more that I would (I was near the middle, -1 -3, I think it was).

"PROBABLY"

Someone who agrees with Rush is less likely to see the contridictions, probably. It's hard to say "your right" and "your full of beans" at the same time...

At the end of it all, I can say it is probable that you are reading my posts and adding and removing words in your mind to create the type of post you think I was going to put up here. You long ago stopped reading what I have to say. Now, you just appear to filter it through and read into anything you want.

I suspect that the two deleted posts were the impressive acts of adults. I think that sums up your side of things nicely.

Alex

fair.org is a really funny name for that website :blink:

I did however bookmark it - seems like a good place to get the viewpoint of the extreme left

Economic Left/Right: 2.25
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.87

Only in the wide,wide whacky world of Alex would this be considered "fairly strongly on the conservative side of things".

Rush Limbaugh would consider me to be a borderline communist and definitely a lefty pinko.



Last edited by Colin at Apr 1 2003, 10:11 AM

Alex,

What do you get for this one?

http://www.3pc.net/matchmaker/quiz.html

Me.

1) Libertarian Party 89%
2) Constitution Party 56%
3) Natural Law Party 44%
4) Green Party 44%
5) Reform Party 44%
6) Democratic Party 33%
7) Republican Party 33%

NM, Alex. That test will give you different results because you have a different reference point.

Canadia v. US

I guess this is how we missunderstand each other Alex. as i read things, you were clear in your dislike of Rush Limbaugh.

it seemed to be clear to me that you were trying to make a general point that your opinion about Rush Limbaugh is more valid than that of Colins because you dont like Rush Limbaugh. That logic as it is, makes some sense. - i.e. saying that Colin is biased in that he is more likely to agree. .. but this also assumes that you dont have any opinion of Rush Limbaugh whereas Colin does and thus you see things with more clarity. That would make sense if that was the case. Because that would mean you did not have a biased opinion. Furthermore, it would have to assume that you are not in anyway biased against Republicans and Conservatives... which is also not the case.

a big point Alex is that you had an opinion about the politics of Rush Limbaugh before you ever listened to Rush Limbaugh.

there is another dimension which also factors in to your opinion about Rush Limbaugh... the fact that you clearly, really dont like him. You are BIASED AGAINST Rush Limbaugh and you are also biased against Conservative politics... in the exact same way you say Colin is biased for him because he may "probably" agree with him.

You use what seems to me to be some pretty flawed logic to make a point that your opinion is more valid than Colins. (thats the way i understood what you posted)

you said exactly:
in your post, you were attempting to say that Colins "probable" bias gives you a more balanced opinion. .. but that assumes you have no bias at all.

i am saying that if you have a biased opinion - its exactly that. nothing more, nothing less. it is hard to make the case that one biased opinion is more valid than another biased opinion.



Last edited by -= JR =- at Apr 1 2003, 10:26 AM

I'd say my opinion on Rush Limbaugh is pretty close to Alex's.

Since i'm right of Alex there would tend to be more overlap though I'm not sure why that is pertinent in light of the clear evidence above that Alex THINKS just like Rush Limbaugh.

Just for grins

1) Libertarian Party 73%
2) Constitution Party 64%
3) Republican Party 50%
4) Natural Law Party 41%
5) Reform Party 36%
6) Democratic Party 32%
7) Green Party 27%

JR, you are so wrong. I had no opinion of Rush until I listened. I had heard all sorts of things, that he was the savior, that he was hot, that he spoke what the people wanted to hear, that he was rooting out the corruption and stupidity in Washington...

I was shocked listening to him. I am not American, and I know enough about the last 10 years of American history to poke holes in almost everything he was saying. He wasn't rooting out anything except votes for his team.

After 2 weeks of him, I learned that there was nothing going on here except massively partisan crap, dressed up as investigative reporting. I am not biased against his politics, I am biased against his careful framing of facts to mislead people.

Based on the results of the test that Colin so carefully charted a couple of months ago, he is much more likely to be in tune with the sorts of things said by Rush than I am... that is ALL I said. If you keep adding words, and keep adding thoughts I just don't have into things, you will get the answer you appear to want to get.

What you call "BIAS" is the fact that I don't agree with you. You are looking at what I say as "wrong" because it doesn't match your opinion. Bias is a dislike from the word go, and that isn't the case.

I will say that if any bias does exist, it is against extremism on all sides - from communist social programs to extreme religeous based conservatism. They both push my buttons, but you rarely see what you would consider an anti-liberal bias because the political makeup of this board is almost entirely conservative ( I think Iron Horse is the major exception... he was way off the other side :-) ).

More importantly, I don't like your current President much. I think he is smug, I think he is not very articulate, he is school yard bully agressive, and he is a little transparent. I disagree with his policies because it is hard to find the sense in them (particularly economic, why give a tax cut when you are already running a deficit? Aren't you just crippling the future like that, borrowing from your children to pay for your current expenses? Isn't it also a bad idea to give a huge tax cut while engaged in a VERY expensive war?). It isn't about being biased, it is about having an opinion.

Finally, JR, on a more personal level, let me just say that you are one of the most insulting, rude, and boorish people I have even met on the boards. You cannot seem to post anything without insulting people, and when people don't want to play your game, you insult them more. That is so childish as to be beyond words. You act like a child, so I treat you like a child. In that respect, I am biased.


Alex

My name has definitely been mentioned in the same sentence as Rush Limbaugh's way too many times for my comfort level this week. :P

one of the many things you said Alex in trying to explain that you have a more balanced view is the following:

you are talking about "my opinion" and i am talking about what you posted and your exact words and the point you were trying to make.

as i read things, you were comparing your ability to form an opinion about Rush Limbaugh and Colins ability to form an opinion about Rush Limbaugh. You tried to make the point that you have a better ability to form a balanced opinion by virtue of the fact that you dont like Rush Limbaugh. is that not correct? i guess i am missing something but the language seems to be pretty clear.

you have done this previously by trying to make the point that Americans are brainwashed by the government, dont watch enough varying news sources, US news is only propaganda etc. as i read things, it was the same arguement. you are questioning someones ability to form a balanced opinion why holding yourself above the same criticisms for varying reasons. you have never admitted any possible fault while pointing out the faults of others that i am aware of.

i did not say that you dont agree with me or make that assumption. its not important to me that you agree with me. i dont think i have ever tried to get you to agree with me. i simply laid out what i felt to be a logical argument that clearly states my perception of what was said, backed up with the evidence of your own quotes - only to have you tell me that i am quoting you wrong as a defence.

if you want to tell us all that you had a completely open mind when listening to who is arguably the worlds most hardcore conservative in the media, there is nothing i can really say to dispute that... but i would say that based on your entire history of posting, your remarks and your political views, you are VERY Liberal in your political beliefs and it is a statement that does not exactly jive with your history of attacking Conservatives and Conservative policies while defending Liberals and Liberal Policies. i respect your opinions about politics. i have no problem with that in any way. but i dont think its totally honest to say that you fall right in the middle of the political spectrum. I can quote PD for example who said "from what i see, Alex seems like any other Liberal Democrat" - i can point to numerous posts where people said "i cant believe i am agreeing with Alex" - and at one point you were accused of possibly becoming the "anti-Torone" (so its not only my view or opinion)

so, in the end, it appears your stance is not any different than any other time:

"JR, you still just dont get it"

- thats ok. you are again saying that you are not biased in any way in your opinions (with the exception of pointing out extreme examples for safetys sake).. and that others are. not much of a surprise either and its a behavior that i have pointed out in the past.

i never said this Alex. i sleep quite well at night knowing that some guy, somewhere does not agree with me. i did not say anything about you "not agreeing with me" - that again is your words and a twisting of the truth, not supported by fact. i did not say anything that i can recall about you agreeing with me at all and i was very careful not to state anything as fact and referred only to opinions. if i fucked that up, as hard as i was trying not to, then i am a total moron.

i also did not say that you said anything you said was "wrong"- i spoke only of opinions. nothing more. you are adding these words.

you say that Bias is "a dislike from the word go". Right now, today we are talking about two peoples ability to form an opinion based on objectivity and why you feel that one persons ability to do so is impaired, whereas yours is not. you were comparing your ability to form an opinion to anothers ability to form an opinion on a person that you ALREADY dislike. We are not talking about 14 years ago. You have made a decision that you dont like that guy. You have said it again and again. So if you were to make a decision today about Rush Limbaugh - it clearly could not possibly be an objective decision... and could not be more objective than Colins opinion simply because he may "probably" be more likely to agree with him. Making that decision years ago to "dislike" Rush Limbaugh means that today, you are not seeing anything he says or does today with any degree of objectivity, yet you are twisting logic in an amazing way to try to argue that it gives you a more superior and objective view.

again, all i am saying that you are using flawed logic to argue that Colins opinion is not objective because he may be more likely to agree with Rush Limbaugh - yet you freely admit that you are more likely to dissagree and that somehow, makes your opinion more objective.

Thats both contradictory and impossible.

i dont know why you add "more importantly, i dont like your current President much". that does not have any connection to this discussion.

i am not being rude or offensive and you just said i was. two posts were NOT DELETED. it was just an April fools joke that Serge did not catch. Sorry if you felt that something was posted that was so offensive by either Colin or myself that Serge of all people, would feel the immediate need to delete. personally, i did not think that was a reasonable assumption or i would not have done it because if it was a reasonable assumption, then it would not be humorous. i really think its unreasonable to believe that Colin would say something that Serge would feel compelled to delete in seconds. i dont think anyone here would believe that would happen.

you are confusing everything i have ever said to you - with everything i ever said - to mischaracterize my general behavior. its not true.

i dont blame you for making that clearly erroneous remark or for your ability to distinguish between how i have spoken to you and how i have spoken to everyone else i have ever spoken to

- i forgive you for that, because i know your opinion is just a little biased on the matter. :awinky: