Originally Posted by Erika (Post 829725)

I say target the consumers and if you know what you are doing, you really don't need many affiliates. Webmaster shows have become nothing but a popularity dick sucking contest and with the economy, not many go to them as much as they did.

Originally Posted by Toby (Post 829726)

Trade shows, by definition, are not consumer shows. They're for people who are in the trade.

Consumer shows can be very beneficial for producers and performers, but they really only work well in LARGE markets. AEE in Vegas during, or overlapping, with CES for example, or the Erotica shows in Los Angeles. Consumers are not going to travel outside their local area to attend.

Originally Posted by gonzo (Post 829727)

Shes talking about the invasion styled promos we did the last couple of years into consumer shows.

When we were doing the panels and dragoncon and frolicon to promote existing and new sites. Worked out quite well.

Originally Posted by Erika (Post 829725)

I have only been to 2 trade shows. The Costa Rica show and the Atlanta forum. Costa Rica to me was not much of a biz show, but more of a vacation for freeloaders. The Atlanta Forum I did not get to experience too much because of the person I went to those shows with. In my opinion, consumer shows would be the most beneficial. You target the people you want to really do business with. Having drinks with webmasters and half the people at a trade show who usually don't do squat in porn in a waste. I consider those the "bro" and "big baller" shows.

I say target the consumers and if you know what you are doing, you really don't need many affiliates. Webmaster shows have become nothing but a popularity dick sucking contest and with the economy, not many go to them as much as they did.

Originally Posted by AdorableAudrey (Post 829442)

As an indie paysite owner I've felt a little out of place at the shows I've been to so far (Internext & Xbiz in Vegas), they definitely don't feel like they cater to small business owners like myself.

Originally Posted by tony404 (Post 829732)

I think people also dont realize you really dont need to be face to face to do business anymore. When I was a headhunter I placed board room level executives never met anyone. I couldnt tell you that the ceo's who wrote the checks to us or the guys I placed looked like. When I was with a dotcom I did a deals with a large dotcoms and marketers never met anyone.

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy (Post 829736)

Mike hits upon one of the key problems. And that is the agenda of the people producing the shows. Whether it be AVN, xbiz or whoever, they are doing it as a for profit venture. Any show is, but the difference here is they are using the long outdated exhibition/seminar model, which I think we've all pretty well established is broken.

The best shows right now are those that are actually put on for "business partners". The show itself, call it a summit or whatever, is not for profit, though they will try to at least break even or subsidize the hell out of the event with sponsorships or registration costs. But the underlying goal is to bring together business partners who are in a symbiotic relationship to learn and strategize how they can all grow together.

To put it another way, our shows are all about everyone trying to protect or expand their piece of the pie....and it's a shrinking pie. I'd be more interested in learning how to grow the pie. I dont mind sharing, I have no desire to be a monopoly, and I will help people if it helps me. Adult shows as they exist now do not foster this type of relationship at all...

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy (Post 829736)

Mike hits upon one of the key problems. And that is the agenda of the people producing the shows. Whether it be AVN, xbiz or whoever, they are doing it as a for profit venture. Any show is, but the difference here is they are using the long outdated exhibition/seminar model, which I think we've all pretty well established is broken.

The best shows right now are those that are actually put on for "business partners". The show itself, call it a summit or whatever, is not for profit, though they will try to at least break even or subsidize the hell out of the event with sponsorships or registration costs. But the underlying goal is to bring together business partners who are in a symbiotic relationship to learn and strategize how they can all grow together.

To put it another way, our shows are all about everyone trying to protect or expand their piece of the pie....and it's a shrinking pie. I'd be more interested in learning how to grow the pie. I dont mind sharing, I have no desire to be a monopoly, and I will help people if it helps me. Adult shows as they exist now do not foster this type of relationship at all...

Originally Posted by tony404 (Post 829738)

good points, I think that will never happen because there are waaay too many agendas and way too many who couldnt make nickle in the real world and the thought this world is crumbling.Makes them do anything to save what they have. There is a real desperation in the air.

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ (Post 829740)

Real desperation because there has been little change in the adult market in the past 30 years.

Film to Video (Big Jump in sales) 80's
Video to DVD and web in the 90's. (New sales channels for basically the same product)
The public is still just watching a video of porn on a screen.
80's- Theater, and then TV screen-
90's-00's- TV screen & Computer screen......(And now it lags, and is jumpy)

And they've finally figured it out.

Hence, they expect it for free. And some in the industry, are happy to oblige with Tube sites. (Which I don't care about)
But everyone else screams "The sky is falling" because the days of shooting fish in the barrel is over.

Boy, we couldn't see this one coming, like 10 years ago? When all the other "business models" in the non-adult industry also failed to monetize web traffic?

PLEASE. If you don't give the customer some kind of "value added" service, real or perceived, he eventually figures it out, and you've lost his attention, and his dollars.

Maybe there NEEDS to be "desperation in the air."

Originally Posted by tony404 (Post 829741)

you have some good points but I think there is desperation when you have big companies giving away full scenes on the hope some will join after jerking off to their stuff for free.

Originally Posted by MikeSouth (Post 829742)

Look Im not saying they shouldnt profit, they should...what I am saying is market your product to your target market stop trying to be everything to everyone...it doesnt work.

If you want to be a fan show dont rape your exhibitors, you need them to survive...as Adult Expo is finding out.

If you want to be a trade show keep the fans out, or at least limit it to those willing to make an effort to pretend to be legit....Those guys sometimes do get in the biz....I did.

BTW I like Cybernet Expo I think it is one of the better shows but I cant justify going to SFO for it

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ (Post 829743)

Yea, I agree. I'm still trying to figure out that business model?
Own a tube site, and a "per minute" site?

I guess it works if you ONLY give a tease, but they don't?
I dunno, seems counter productive to me..

Originally Posted by tony404 (Post 829745)

I own paysites and have some clips for sale stores. I agree with you, I cant figure out the business model of giving it all away. I think its because its not a business model.

Originally Posted by gonzo (Post 829747)

In my opinion I think Steve likes publicity for the sake of publicity.

Ive been told bad press is better than no press at all.

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ (Post 829746)

I GOT IT!

The head of Vivid just said so, on CNBC. (They are re-running the Porn/pleasure special, probably or ratings...THEY -CNBC- Know their business model!)

Anyhow, Steven, (head of vivd, who one time sued AEBN's Tube site for having their content on it, then, later on, made a deal with them to put their content on their tube site......) well, he said "Who knows, maybe some day we'll be giving away our content for free to sell advertising on our website."

Okeee.....dokeee.....

How d'yall feel about that?

Originally Posted by LizAEBN (Post 829749)

Hasn't that pretty much been the big complaint against certain industry players? The buying of that advertising space?

Off topic, but I would expect to start seeing that bleed off.

Originally Posted by RawAlex (Post 829750)

It is why his comment is so outrageous, because Vivid in theory is at the TOP of the food chain, not the bottom. They should be the ones buying banner spots from others, not selling them. If Vivid is using their content to only sell dating sites and push penis pills, then you know that there isn't any money left in porn.

Originally Posted by LizAEBN (Post 829751)

I'm not seeing where you get Hirsch using his content to push penis pills, but ok.

Originally Posted by RawAlex (Post 829752)

If he is going to sell advertising on porn sites, what exactly do you think they would be pushing? Coca Cola isn't lining up to be on the vivid site. What else is there?

Originally Posted by RawAlex (Post 829752)

If he is going to sell advertising on porn sites, what exactly do you think they would be pushing? Coca Cola isn't lining up to be on the vivid site. What else is there?

Originally Posted by LizAEBN (Post 829754)

With regard to the specific case pointed to up thread, he isn't. He's simply changing his use of existing promotional material for vetted traffic to his content and program.

Coca-Cola has broad level investorships to concern itself with in a way most adult companies don't.

Originally Posted by gonzo (Post 829672)

I fear this thread will come to an untimely end . . .

Originally Posted by gonzo (Post 829797)

As predicted...

Anyone seen a date for the 2010 show anywhere?

Originally Posted by RawAlex (Post 829800)

Just checked the AVN sites, nothing past this last show. Las Vegas is still 2009.

I don't remember if I mentioned, but I got hit up already about a month ago to buy a "cheaper" pre-registration badge for AEE. I would find it interesting that AEE is already taking registrations and yet the web show that runs at almost the same time is nowhere to be seen.

Perhaps AVN and XBiz has deep in negotiations right now. Secrets, you know?

Originally Posted by JFK (Post 829801)

just an fyi, AEE is not run by AVN, its licensed out;)

Originally Posted by EmporerEJ (Post 829739)

Look, I appreciate your opinion, but I just can't agree. I've never heard of a trade show put on "Not for profit." Sounds more like you are having "a meeting." Or maybe a sewing group?
You could put your own show/summit, on maybe?

And hell yes, it's about a bigger piece of pie. And I DON'T agree with you on "Shrinking pie." Maybe from your seat?

The adult industry has STEADILY grown since the mid 80's when I started in in it?

And you want to know about something new...something that "grows the pie?"
What the hell have I been doing for the past 9 years?
I invented the Virtual Sex Machine, and created an enitrely NEW channel to RESELL the "Pie" (Content...new or old, is NEW to the VR market,) in.
Don't blame me if some people can't see it. "Others" seem to get it as we are now beginning to see "Knock offs," or put more kindly for the benefit of others here, "similar players in the VR field."

Originally Posted by Hell Puppy (Post 829819)

I think you're missing my points here...

"Not for profit" on a show...of course the idea is to make money, but the money isn't coming from attendee badges, exhibitor fees, sponsorships, advertising, etc as is the typical model. What I'm referring to are things like the shows Oracle or SAP do.

They MAY or may not make a profit off the show itself, that's incidental. What they're looking to do is see all of their customers and business partners grow and thus buy more of their core product. They're in business to make money off their core products not shows.

As for the shrinking pie...anyone really think there's as much money coming into the adult web in 2009 as there was in say 2002? I think page views, users and every other metric are up....they're WAY up, but we're giving a lot away.

DEMAND for our product is high as ever. ACCESSIBILITY and ease of distribution, also better than it's ever been. People have privacy, convenience, easy of use, and heck with today's cable modem speeds quality of the streams is getting better all the time.

But for reasons we're all aware of, it's harder and harder to get a user to trust us with their credit card number. The people who should be our best customers, the guys who have disposable income and are free with their credit card get taught a lesson as soon as they happen across the wrong site. Unfortunately this doesn't take long.

Originally Posted by tony404 (Post 829907)

got life extension magazine today. they are having a 3 day conference in fl at the westin ft lauderdale room rates are $89 a night. That says it all. adult webmasters are the only ones to pay inflated hotel prices in the middle of summer in fl. lol

Originally Posted by tony404 (Post 829907)

got life extension magazine today. they are having a 3 day conference in fl at the westin ft lauderdale room rates are $89 a night. That says it all. adult webmasters are the only ones to pay inflated hotel prices in the middle of summer in fl. lol

Originally Posted by RawAlex (Post 829910)

I think in some ways it comes from a two-fold problem for adult conventions.

The first year in Florida, it wasn't specifically a "whole hotel" takeover, which lead to some situations, particuarly on the first and last day of the show. So one of the issues is that Internext is forced to pretty much assure the hotel of a complete sellout. So room rates are calculated to make sure that AVN isn't underwater even if only 75% of the rooms sell.

Now, as for comparing the westin to the diplomat, I just checked Expedia for rates (in canadian dollars) for next month for 5 days. Diplomat, cheap room is $301 a night, westin is $110. So on that scale, (almost 3 times) the room rates for Internext are actually in keeping with the relative room rates in Florida.

When Internext signed the long term agreements, they were selling out the show, offloading people to the hotel by the golf course, and even pointing people to cheaper properties in the area. The show was a massive oversold deal that had no chance of failure in the near future. However, the 2009 summer show was very lightly attended (you could book a standard room the morning of the show), and images from the show indicate that the crowd was very light. I remember when the showroom floor upstairs was filled, the pool bar was crowded, and basically the property was swarming with people. This last show honestly looked like less than half that crowd, and without a show floor, much of the game is given over to social rather than more organized events. and as far as vegas I dont think it has really sunk in for them. Chris was talking how vegas will be the biggest show ever. its like wake up those days are over.

So the prices of the hotel rooms are in line, but perhaps at this point the property is well beyond what the vast majority of people are willing to pay. The Playahs (including the Iporn people, I gather) can afford to pay the price, but the average webmaster and small program owner will have a very hard time to justify paying out a couple of thousand dollars, only to end up in a place where they can't find anyone they really would like to meet, because there is no show floor, no real events, and just people wandering around in bathing suits getting drunk.

With AVN Chris out the door, perhaps someone can give this show (and vegas) a serious, sober second thought and come up with a show that is more conducive to getting business done.

Originally Posted by tony404 (Post 829911)

Good points.Also why do they have to take over a whole hotel? Is it really necessary to have half naked models running around, like we dont look at this enough all day long. its like they all wanted to be rock stars and the shows are the excuse. It shouldnt be about being rockstars it should be about being business people. The shows are really like a shining example of whats wrong with adult. Its all on flash and the quick buck and being a pimp no substance or longterm viability.I read on the jungle someone saying vegas will be the biggest show ever its like wake the fuck up those days are over.