After I heard good ole Ewan singing... I've been in extreme lust ever since.. That man could have me do pretty much anything for him after hearing "My gift is my soooooooooooooooong" :)

I already thought he was dead sexy, but that just completely clinched it. I think I will go watch Moulin Rouge this afternoon.[/b][/quote]


OMG I thought I was the only one that melted when they sang to eachother in that scene. I couldn't stand the movie when I first rented it.. I stopped after the first few minutes.. then went back a few days later and rented it again.. have loved it ever since!

Hey, Lady - you're now criticizing AVATARS?! Too funny! :yowsa:

I couldn't bear to watch more than the first 45 minutes of MR - Ewan or no Ewan. :barfon:[/b][/quote]


Ah same here!

I've liked Ewan since Transpotting.. him and Tommy Lee Jones... ( Angelina Jolies X)

Ah same here!

I've liked Ewan since Transpotting.. him and Tommy Lee Jones... ( Angelina Jolies X)[/b][/quote]
I haven't seen Trainspotting since it first came out. I think it's due for another viewing. :)

Hey, Lady - you're now criticizing AVATARS?! Too funny! :yowsa:[/b][/quote]
But not yours dude. Your avatar is so pretty. When did you have that picture taken?

Several years ago which is why you don't see much gray in my beard.

Killing babies for convenience.

You know... if killing babies was as legal in the outside world as it is inside a womans womb you could only imagine how much the number of infant mortalities would clime.

Hell.. when it comes to convenience those of us with kids could name a few instances I'm sure when things would have been more convenient, less expesive or just downright easier without them. But we made a choice.. and that choice is what puts us in the situation we're in.

I'd rather chose a good partner then be partner to someone who murdered our child. I feel for ya man!

If having your own genetic child is important then you should do it. There are many ways people in a marriage can create there own genetic offspring :)

I agree with you except for one thing... I thought hood rats on welfare got more money with more kids?

Funny how our society gives economic incentive for those in a bad state to bring more into this world in a bad state. It's unfortunate. I wish they gave incentives for hard working people to have more children. We'd end up with more children growing up in healthy environments then in the hood.



Last edited by Squirt at Nov 10 2003, 01:31 PM

Unfortunately the baby depends on the host ( mother ) for life and nourishment. If the mother dies.. the baby dies. If the mother wants the baby to die.. it will die. There is not stopping a woman from exercising her rigth to take control of her body and that which is in it. It's natural law. The ultimate choice of life in human beings belongs with the mother. Not a piece of paper that says she can't do something. Not community standards. Not her husband or family. The choice, in the end, is hers.

I don't know how it is in AU, but in the US, parents who aren't on welfare get MUCH more in tax incentives than welfare parents get in welfare payments. :unsure: In fact, my "child free" friends are more irate at THOSE government payouts than welfare.

And I won't even bring up how being poor or rich has no bearing on if the environment you grow up in is "healthy".

Several years ago which is why you don't see much gray in my beard.[/b][/quote]
But being able to lick your eyebrows is always popular.

Posting bloody abortion pictures as an argument against abortion is like posting pictures of open heart surgery as an argument against by passes. I have photographed lots of open heart surgery and it looks disgusting, but it saves lives. So stop with the stupid abortion pictures already. You guys live in a country that is blew the shit out of an entire nation twice in my lifetime, dropped the mother of all bombs in "surgical" raids and in the process killed, maimed,burnedand paralyzed a lot of innocent people. Those were not pretty pictures either. But you never forced anyone to look at those. Personally So I guess throwing the baby out with the bath water is just another type of surgery to save a:our democracy b: our freedom c:a mother's life
WTF, there is nor argument here.[/b][/quote]

"You guys live in a country that is blew the shit out of an entire nation twice in my lifetime" If you are refering to America, I don't live there.

"So I guess throwing the baby out with the bath water is just another type of surgery to save a:our democracy b: our freedom c:a mother's life
WTF, there is nor argument here." America is very very conservative regarding the abortion issue. Goto India where they kill babies solely because of their sex. China as well. There are too many examples in the world of business as usual regarding abortion, let alone killing children after they are born because of their sex.

"Posting bloody abortion pictures as an argument against abortion is like posting pictures of open heart surgery as an argument against by passes."
That's a false analogy. I posted abortion pictures in conjunction with my argument, not the basis of the argument itslef. This is a discussion regarding this issue. I posted the pictures to illistrate the reality of what we're tlaking about.. just as one would post pictures of open heart surgery to do the same.

War is a totally different issue and I have posted wartime pics before to illustrate the reality of discussion, as well as video of individuals having their heads cut off for political reasons. Either you don't pay attention or you're being selective in what you acknowledge, either way your statement is based on wishful thinking not reality.

NewsFlash

If you don't have a uterus your opinion about abortion really doesn't carry much weight


Some say life begins at conception, I say it began with the carbon atom millions of years ago!!!
(and I still think coming out of the ocean was a bad idea - you doubt me - look at sexed - proves my point)


If all this concern(, lip service and rhetoric) went to pre-school children and not pre-born FETUS how much better would conditions be???

Excellent point.

What's interesting is that the die hard pro-lifers I know would never dream of offering to adopt the children of these women they try to scare out of having an abortion.

One family friend marches against abortion constantly. They have 5 kids. I asked them once why they didn't adopt: "Because we wanted our own kids. We wanted to know what we were getting.". :angry:

And of the many couples I know who have adopted, they all wanted white healthy babies. Crack babies and those with fetal alcohol syndrome need not apply. :(

There are tens of thousands of children in foster care looking for adoptive parents. Why not spend time and energy on them?

I don't know how it is in AU, but in the US, parents who aren't on welfare get MUCH more in tax incentives than welfare parents get in welfare payments. :unsure: In fact, my "child free" friends are more irate at THOSE government payouts than welfare.

And I won't even bring up how being poor or rich has no bearing on if the environment you grow up in is "healthy".[/b][/quote]

Well I'm an American living in Australia the last year or so and it seems the "welfare" system out here is similar. See out here people pay about 1/2 their income in taxes. Get free medical care etc. Going on the "dole" is not considered a bad thing. A lot of people, when they graduate high school, go on the dole for a year or so and decide what they want to do with their life. Every Aussie I talk to says this is common and tells me their personal experience.

As a matter of fact.. there is more incentive for lower wage earners not to work and go on the dole. You get more money and do not work. Also a lot of workers here quit durring the holiday seasons.. go on the dole, then look for work afte the holidays are over. There has to be an Aussie somewhere here who will answer this.

Here there is nothing really wrong with going on the dole. Paying almost 50% in taxes people want to get their moneys worth.. and they deserve it! There is no stigma here really with it.. other then people will think you're a big lazy. Hell.. when you go on the dole you get a discount card.. seriously.. that gives you discounts on purchases ( including movies ) I have a friend on the dole and we went to see a movie.. he whips out his card.. the woman scans it and he gets a discount. FUNNY.. the government giving you a discount on entertainment while it's supporting you! Who knew :)

Excellent point.

What's interesting is that the die hard pro-lifers I know would never dream of offering to adopt the children of these women they try to scare out of having an abortion.

One family friend marches against abortion constantly. They have 5 kids. I asked them once why they didn't adopt: "Because we wanted our own kids. We wanted to know what we were getting.". :angry:

And of the many couples I know who have adopted, they all wanted white healthy babies. Crack babies and those with fetal alcohol syndrome need not apply. :(

There are tens of thousands of children in foster care looking for adoptive parents. Why not spend time and energy on them?[/b][/quote]
Yes.. and how many of those children are going to grow up completely screwed up because of their conditions, treatment, or abuse? It's a sick world and most oftentimes children are the biggest victims of it's sickness...

and most of them are so physically unattractive no one wants to fuck them anyway- another problem solved


The solution is simple - you don't want an abortion - DON'T HAVE ONE

on the other hand abortion should be legal and safe for those who choose that option (in what is the best out of many bad choices ofttimes)

In fact abortion should be FREE to low income mothers and welfare recipients if they want to choose that option


As for partial birth abortions - the words partial birth are absolute bullshit
There is NO BIRTH involved (the fetus would not survive outside the womb in most cases)

If the fetus does not have the opportunity for a normal life or the mother's health is in danger ....
A painful solution for all involved again the best of many bad choices

p.s. I know my opinion doesn't count because I don't have a uterus B)

Excellent point.

What's interesting is that the die hard pro-lifers I know would never dream of offering to adopt the children of these women they try to scare out of having an abortion.

One family friend marches against abortion constantly. They have 5 kids. I asked them once why they didn't adopt: "Because we wanted our own kids. We wanted to know what we were getting.". :angry:

And of the many couples I know who have adopted, they all wanted white healthy babies. Crack babies and those with fetal alcohol syndrome need not apply. :(

There are tens of thousands of children in foster care looking for adoptive parents. Why not spend time and energy on them?[/b][/quote]
At one point in my life I was in the foster care system. Also.. without going into much detail.... before my son was born I had no clue what I was getting. His mother, a good friend since high school, didn't know if he was going to be half black, mexican or white. And it didn't matter. He could have been born addicted to drugs. It didn't matter. What mattered was that I fell in love with him before he was born and at age 21 I was there for him, no matter what he was, and I still am, I always will be. That's a true parent.

Without going into detail.. I can tell you that being a child and knowing first hand how cruel those who brought you into the world can be.. it would be easy for me to say all these women should have abortions.. or all these women should have the kids and give them up for adoption. But I maintain that it's the womans choice. Nothing can change that.

I don't have one either.

And I promise not to tell anyone that I agree with this completely: I don't want to tarnish your reputation :D

Uh, aren't you the one who started this thread? And isn't it titled: Partial Birth Abortion is WRONG! :unsure:



Last edited by Peaches at Nov 10 2003, 06:05 PM

Vick, human rights issues are not based on the sex of those involved, rather their rights as individuals.

Uh, aren't you the one who started this thread? And isn't it titled: Partial Birth Abortion is WRONG! :unsure:[/b][/quote]


Yes.. after researching this and seeing the diagrams of exactly how this is done, and how old the children are and seeing the photos I think it's wrong. It is also the womans choice. Also I stated that these children.. kicking a flailing while their neck is being cut open and brain being suctioned out could be capable of surviving outside the womb. If a woman is giving a doctor permission to pull this whole baby out.. except for it's head.. to do this procedure.. then it's feasable ( in some cases ) that the child could live a happy and healthy life. I also stated that when a child is "partially born" with all of it's body out except the head.. is it not part of the outside world at this point.. with all the rights of a living human being?

Again.. my comments don't apply to all cases and are not a blanket response to all situations.



Last edited by Squirt at Nov 10 2003, 02:20 PM

Vick, human rights issues are not based on the sex of those involved, rather their rights as individuals.[/b][/quote]
Nature ties the infant to the mother and rightfully so
As women in most cases are better and far superior at nurturing an infant

When men start carrying children, giving birth, breast feeding and being the primary care giver and nurturer for infants then their opinions will count as much as women's

Not to mention the havoc having a child imposes on the body

Nature ties the infant to the mother and rightfully so
As women in most cases are better and far superior at nurturing an infant

When men start carrying children, giving birth, breast feeding and being the primary care giver and nurturer for infants then their opinions will count as much as women's

Not to mention the havoc having a child imposes on the body[/b][/quote]


Your argument is flawed... but using your logic: My opinion on women killing their children with partial birth abortion counts because some of the children being killed are males.

Now do I have a right to an opinion regarding babies being killed? Not to mention that without men the children wouldn't exist.

But again .. this isn't a male/female issue... human rights issues are not based on the sex of those involved, rather their rights as individuals.

Squirt - we have WAYyyyyyyyyy different opinions on this so ....

You seem like a decent guy with a good mind and being you're new somewhat to posting here I'll drop my end of the discussion :)



edit - p.s. can you please give a warning next time you post graphic pics when it's in the AM here in the US?



Last edited by Vick at Nov 10 2003, 05:33 PM

Vick.. since I might post something at night in the U.S. that you might not see until the next morning.. I'll just always preface my posts with pics as (Vick, cover your eyes) Will that due?



Last edited by Squirt at Nov 10 2003, 02:57 PM

Vick.. since I might post something at night nightime in the U.S. that you might not see until the next morning.. I'll just always preface my posts with pics as (Vick, cover your eyes) Will that due?[/b][/quote]
:okthumb:

If I had the room and the money, I would foster kids. The room and the money is tied in, as I need more money in order to get more room. :)

Partial birth abortions are late-term, third trimester abortions. Unless there is something seriously physically wrong with the child, it could indeed survive after birth.

Yes.. after researching this and seeing the diagrams of exactly how this is done, and how old the children are and seeing the photos I think it's wrong. It is also the womans choice. Also I stated that these children.. kicking a flailing while their neck is being cut open and brain being suctioned out could be capable of surviving outside the womb. If a woman is giving a doctor permission to pull this whole baby out.. except for it's head.. to do this procedure.. then it's feasable ( in some cases ) that the child could live a happy and healthy life. I also stated that when a child is "partially born" with all of it's body out except the head.. is it not part of the outside world at this point.. with all the rights of a living human being?

Again.. my comments don't apply to all cases and are not a blanket response to all situations.[/b][/quote]
Depends on how far along they are... Just because they CAN survive outside the womb at that point doesn't mean they're not worse off if they do. For example, one of the reasons my doctor won't even do an internal exam on me (I'm having a VERY BAD pregnancy) is because the baby is now viable. I'm 5 months along. Were I to go into labor or start a bleed-out, they would do a caesarian and take the baby out and put it in an incubator. However, viable or not, at this point in time, babies in incubators generally are very sickly, VERY likely to catch serious illnesses and die.. have developmental problems, severe retardation in about half the cases... the list of difficulties goes on. Premature babies CAN survive, yes, but HOW premature they are is also a huge factor. 6 weeks early even, and they are still in the "safe" zone. Much more than that, and a child is pretty much damned to be plagued with health problems their entire (and usually very short) lives.

Depends on how far along they are... Just because they CAN survive outside the womb at that point doesn't mean they're not worse off if they do. For example, one of the reasons my doctor won't even do an internal exam on me (I'm having a VERY BAD pregnancy) is because the baby is now viable. I'm 5 months along. Were I to go into labor or start a bleed-out, they would do a caesarian and take the baby out and put it in an incubator. However, viable or not, at this point in time, babies in incubators generally are very sickly, VERY likely to catch serious illnesses and die.. have developmental problems, severe retardation in about half the cases... the list of difficulties goes on. Premature babies CAN survive, yes, but HOW premature they are is also a huge factor. 6 weeks early even, and they are still in the "safe" zone. Much more than that, and a child is pretty much damned to be plagued with health problems their entire (and usually very short) lives.[/b][/quote]

True.. individual cases are the key. There is no one answer for all situations. My son was 6 weeks premature. They induced labor because Mom had been hospitalized for a few weeks for extreme pregnancy induced hypertension. She became critical so they had to pump my boys lungs with steroids to help them develop quickly so when he was born he could breathe correctly. When he was born he was no bigger then my hand!

Spending weeks in the NICU I saw so many worst case children.. those born with their brains outside their sculls. Hearing the consant alert of drug babies going through fits.. the list goes on. I remember another couple who had a premi... the baby was smaller then my boy and looked like an alien he was so premi. I'll never forget the doctors and nurses toiling over him with the warming light shining over him to keep his temperature up.

It's all a matter of choice. Some doctors and parents choose to kill these babies... others choose to try and save them. Some of these babies live healthy lives.. others are a major burdon. In the end.. some mothers make the choice to kill the baby before it's born, not knowing for sure what the result is.. just to be safe. It's always moms choice.

I'm with you there! I love kids and remember when I was younger and put in the position I was.... really good people changed my life and showed me what love really was. A judge, a social worker, people in the group home, Foster parents... and a kind teacher showed me what love is.

I'm sure all of us have experience with someone in our life, who wasn't a parent, that went out of their way to make a difference, not because they had to, but because they are good people.

You sound like good people Carrie... you deserve your name on my models ass :) lol

It's no wonder to me why incubators are little death-traps. Imagine the number of sheer germs floating around in hospitals - even with the sterilized equipment and filtered air. It's where sick people go in large numbers every day.

Plus you take a baby completely and totally away from its mother, her warmth, her heartbeat, and her breastmilk... no child fares well without those crucial things. If he needs the tubes and such, so be it - but let him lay in his mother's arms where the familiar sound of her heart can calm and relax him and her nutritious breastmilk can feed him.

Children in incubators have always looked to me to be horribly frightened and alone; stress is one of the most dangerous things to a baby's fragile system.

I know, getting off-topic here.

Yeah.. now you can understand why I don't want my baby like that, and neither does my doctor.

And although I don't agree with ANYONE having to die unneccessarily, I also hate suffering too. It's almost like euthenasia.. which is another touchy subject I know. There IS no right or wrong answer for every situation. Every situation is going to have different circumstances, reprecussions and neccessities...

You're right.. their nervous systems go haywire in the NICU ... you have to keep very quiet and with my boy they covered his ears to help him cope.

You're right.. their nervous systems go haywire in the NICU ... you have to keep very quiet and with my boy they covered his ears to help him cope.[/b][/quote]
Yeah not only that but their immune systems are never the same as other children's... it's awful. 6 weeks is pretty much the limit as far as possibility for health in 99.9% of the cases, and like in your situation they try to stimulate the child's growth for that.. which can also cause damage in itself. You are VERY lucky your child is ok, Squirt :)

Yeah.. now you can understand why I don't want my baby like that, and neither does my doctor.

And although I don't agree with ANYONE having to die unneccessarily, I also hate suffering too. It's almost like euthenasia.. which is another touchy subject I know. There IS no right or wrong answer for every situation. Every situation is going to have different circumstances, reprecussions and neccessities...[/b][/quote]


Well I can tell you that I don't envy women having to make these tough decisions. It's easier to be angry at someone for making a choice .. then having to make the choice yourself.

In this situation you're really damned if you do and damned if you don't. Who really wins in the end?

"It's almost like euthenasia." See I agree with euthenasia... when the person has let their wishes be known in advance.

Well I can tell you that I don't envy women having to make these tough decisions. It's easier to be angry at someone for making a choice .. then having to make the choice yourself.

In this situation you're really damned if you do and damned if you don't. Who really wins in the end?

"It's almost like euthenasia." See I agree with euthenasia... when the person has let their wishes be known in advance.[/b][/quote]
Yeah but it's just as controversial, because there are many people who think no matter what, it's wrong. There's no real black and whit eon it though.

Oh - Vick, you mentioned men providing breastmilk. Just a note, they often did back before formulas. Laura Shanley, a dear friend of mine and one of the most outspoken advocates of homebirth - her hubby wanted to see if he could produce breastmilk. It took a few weeks, but he did it. Mind over matter kind of thing.

Just an interesting side-note. :)

They can take hormones to do it as well :) Men can also get breast cancer. Montel Williams had it. A few more interesting facts.