Someone who disagrees with your PRESUMPTIONS and ASSUMPTIONS is FOOLISH?

What is the complete chain of thought again? Bush and some of his cabinet members were in the oil industry. Iraq has oil. Therefore, the "war is about oil"? That's a weak chain of logic at best. One cannot even make any logical connections from any assumptions to the conclusion. It is no stronger a case than that.

Remember Bush's infamous "Axis of Evil" statement. Maybe Bush deemed Iraq, Iran, and North Korea an "axis of evil" because he knew Saddam would continue to defy the UN inspectors after which he would be able to "take Iraq's oil" and then use it to fuel further attacks on North Korea and later Iran. That's it, huh? Funny.

Alex,

See things from both sides?? Like you do?

You easily characterize the ppl "around here" as not "Having any other ideas than "kill them all, amen"

but yet you don't think you are "narrow minded" and "prefer to point and snicker"?

Pot calling the kettle black, IMO.

Get real, man.

Come on Alex, you give up too easily... I think you know that most people here CAN SEE things from both sides, but have simply chosen to BE on one side or the other. I personally have strong feelings about the whole thing (this thread/french boycott). Yes I love my country, yes I have the worst gas guzzling American cars on the market, yes I'm a conservative at heart, yes I think Saddam has to go no matter the cost, yes I think the French govt. is in the wrong for not backing us and the U.N. ... yet those feelings don't drive me to boycott the French products that I do consume. It's my RIGHT as an american to choose what I want to consume and if I want to buy french products, then our free marketplace will determine what price I have to pay for it. Do I think any less of the people in this thread that choose to boycott French products? .. of course not, many of them are my dear friends and I repsect their choice, hopefully they will show me the same respect.

:okthumb:

EWE Yuck, ahh gross
I would NEVER TONGUE KISS A MAN!!!

hopefully they will show me the same respect.
******************************************

nevaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!

I'll see you on Satrurday with a bottle of
Bellecart-Salmon Champagne you brought the other day and empty it on a palm tree near your house!


Doug will make pics,
Shannon will be nekkid so the photo will be on CNN and all major media networks!

Mike, here's the thing: I have complete respect for your choices, and I have total respect for everyones choices as they make them. I respect the opinions of others... and I have strong opinions of my own.

Actually, I just deleted three paragraphs. I realized as I re-read them that all those comments are going to lead to is more of the same...

My opinions are mine, I am not going to change anyone's opinion here, I accept that. I am tired of the snickering and snide comments, it's just not really very much fun. When it comes to this subject, I am saddened to find that the gumbo is very sour indeed.

Colin, I thank you. You taught me something that JR didn't. For that I am grateful.

Alex

Go Peaches!! Well said!

Why not? You asked me - albeit politely - to fuck off... what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
You asked what your job has to do with this - well, quite a bit. You take every opportunity to slam American's habits, luxuries, and policies - yet the majority of money you make is American. If you really are disgusted that much by who or what we are, or what we do, why aren't your convictions strong enough to make you not accept our money?
You say that this isn't about Americans - thank you, Sarettah, for quoting where Alex specifically brought up *American* oil consumption. How about posting statistics on everyone else's oil consumption as well? Hell, how about posting France's oil consumption, and the amount of barrels they get each year from Iraq?

Look, I DO agree with you on many points. Everyone should use less oil. But face the facts, man. This isn't 1840. We're not riding one mile to the corner store on a horse to get our groceries and spending an hour catching up on the latest town gossip with our best friend, the grocer.
This is 2003. To get anywhere, you need a car. There are laws that prohibit you from carrying small children in a car without massive space-consuming carseats.
How do you propose that I get my two 35-lb children and their 20-lb huge carseats to the grocery store that is miles and miles away, and get back with a week's worth of groceries, without my Jeep? I'm sorry, but the carseats alone won't fit into the 240SX SE, nevermind the kids and the groceries. Yeah, it's a lot better on gas, and it's a hell of a lot more fun to drive, but it just doesn't get the job done.

You love to bash SUVs - what's the alternative? That no one has children, that no one has family gatherings or outings? If we didn't have my Jeep, when my family of 4 and my 2 parents wanted to go out to celebrate something, we'd have to take two vehicles. That's wasting even more precious oil than the Jeep does.

Other ways to save resources? Okay, how about solar panels on your house? Sorry... can't afford them. How about an underground house? I'd love to have one and my father even has designs for one, but sorry - can't afford that either. I've got it - windmills. Nope, can't afford the land to put them on and can't afford the equipment for that either.

I do what I can... I don't make unnecessary trips to the grocery store, I do all of my weekly errands at once. I turn off the lights in empty rooms. I wait until my laundry will completely fill the washer before running that machine. I usually take showers instead of baths. But things like that aren't enough for you - you've identified one product - the SUV, the ultimate "vehicle of destruction" for the Liberals, speaking of toeing the party line - and declared that everyone should stop using it without a thought as to those who NEED it.

Where are the majority of SUVs sold? I'd be willing to bet that it's in states where the weather demands a vehicle with 4WD, like Syracuse New York, which gets more snow annually than Siberia, and which is where I was living when the Jeep was purchased.
Who are the majority of people who buy SUVs? Again, I'd be willing to bet that it's FAMILIES or people with two or more children.
Sure, there are guys out there buying SUVs just because they look cool or just because they can - but lumping us all together as purposefully wasteful insensitive bastards is just as bad as lumping together all content providers just because a few of them resell pics they're not licensed to sell.

And all of this bullshit of "It's all about the oil" - give it a break!
We were attacked on September 11th, 2001. On our own soil. What is so frigging wrong about us putting our foot down and saying enough is enough? Americans have been attacked all over the globe for far too long and that was the last straw. Bush has made it quite simple - the terrorists have gotten away with their activities long enough, it's time someone did something about it. THAT is what this is about.
Saddam Hussein is a terrorist. He kills his OWN people. He has different weapons to use against people - bombs, missiles, chemical weapons - and he has shown that he's not against using them for no particular reason other than a stray air molecule brushed one of his nosehairs. If you listened to his interview with Dan Rather tonight, he made it quite clear that he intends to follow the "rules of Allah" to the letter - do you know what those rules are? The most important one to this discussion is that anyone who does not pray to Allah is an infidel, and all infidels should be killed. Does that not strike home a little bit? I haven't seen you wearing a turban lately.

He also made it very clear that once we attack Iraq, he's going to attack us on our own soil. It was a clever threat surrounded with artful language, but it was clear. How can he do that if he hasn't prepared for it already? He doesn't have anything that could reach us if launched from Iraq, but we do know that he has nerve gas that takes one single drop to kill a man... he's got 4 friggin TONS of the shit.
Colin Powell clearly laid out what Hussein has, and what he's hiding from us. Who do you believe? Powell or Hussein?

This isn't about oil. It's about turning the other cheek so many times that you don't have a cheek to turn anymore. It's about wiping out an obvious threat before it becomes an even bigger threat - not just to the US, but to the entire world.

So no, I won't politely fuck off... but I guess I will refrain from joking with you again since you seem to have totally lost your sense of humor.

could I suggest that all you wine drinkers give up your ****** wines and switch to Red Breast Whiskey
I don't usually enjoy Whiskey and this is the most amazing drink, serious 4 star
A single, unblended, Pure Pot Still, Irish Whiskey, triple distilled and matured in Oak Casks for 12 years
I drink it neat with a coke back
Highly recommended!!! I had a hard time finding it but it is worth it

I think MikeW brought me a bottle of it too!

He hooks me on hard liquor, so he could enjoy the French wines
;-))))

I'm just not sure what I think is dumber ... the idea that it's all about oil for our gas-guzzling S.U.V.s, or the "we were attacked on 9/11, and he's a terrorist, and he's a Muslim, so we gotta attack him" mentality.

But Alex, if the U.S. was going to go to war over oil riddle me this ... why the fuck did we ever leave Kuwait? Get real - if oil was all we wanted we'd end the sanctions and flood the country with Haliburton executives and Starbucks franchises - and he'd accept them. Saddam Hussein is as much of a fundamentalist Islamist as John Ashcroft is a convert to Hasidism. And if the U.S. were inclined to go to war for oil, I think we could find significant quantities of it much closer to home. Better beer, too ....

Carrie, only the predisposed or truly naive would believe that Saddam Hussien's claims of Islamic purity as uttered to Dan Rather were anything other than posturing. A number of the folks his terrorist regime has killed off include Islamic fundamentalists. As far as him killing his own people, well, jeez, we've had a lot of friends throughout the years who've done that - is that what compassionate conservatism is? He was killing his own people just as proficiently back when he was our ally against Iran. Are we going to renoucnce that kind of short sighted policy? Only one American President - Jimmy Carter - has ever tried to distance us from that kind of policy. Can I assume that Bush & Co. have decided Carter was right?

And you're angry because Saddam said he's going to strike back why? What the hell was he supposed to say - "Oh, golly gee Dan, if you blokes come over here to my country and start a war, well, I wish you wouldn't, but I assure you I'm going to be sporting about it and play by the rules?" In case you haven't noticed those are U.S. troops piling up on his borders. He's going to play every game in the book to attempt to persuade American public opinion that this war is a mistake. If he thinks that threatening America is a way to do that he's far stupider than I thought - but that's not the audience he was playing to. Saddam knows exactly what the people in Homeland Security knows - the alQaida types (remember alQaida?) will use our war with their pther enemy - Iraq - as recruiting fodder, and probably strike at us here and around the globe. They were going to do that anyway, but using the war in Iraq as an excuse is very effective propaganda for them.

PD,

Nice post.

What are your thoughts ON the causes of the war?

It was a good interview. Saddam continues to be a world-class politician.

Carrie,

I like your points about SUVs and consumptions.

Syracuse, "more Snow than Siberia". I lived there for 6 years. (Syracuse, not Siberia)

hahahahaha, my palms need a good watering!!

:nyanya:

holy shit!!!

On the Russian board,
my declaration of War with France turned into...
the Civil War,
holy moly!

To calm the tensions around the globe and adult webmasters chat boards,
I suggest:
Let's unban French wines! :inlove:

I'm all for boycotting France. I'm all for buying wine from our truly great friends, Australia. I draw the line, however, at The People's Republic of California. I won't subsidize Gov. Grey Dufus... :nyanya:

Gillette? Bic?

Huh? Boston is in France?

Huh? Boston is in France?[/b][/quote]
Unless things have changed, Gillette used to be a French company (as best I can remember).

Dammit I missed the Saddam interview and I really wanted to see it. Anyone know if it is going to be on again?

Colin, my thoughts on the war are very simple.

Saddam Hussein reached an agreement with the United Nations to settle the Gulf War 13 years ago. He continues to refuse to comply, or provide proof of compliance, with the agreements he reached. That refusal cannot be tolerated and the U.N. remain something other than the joke that the League of Nations became.

The difficult situation here is that the U.S. can accomplish exactly what we allege we are concerned Saddam is doing by acting unilaterally. We have a history of opposing unilateral action. The quote I posted in another thread - "We believe these actions to have been taken in error, for we do not accept the use of force as a wise or proper instrument for the settlement of international disputes." - were not uttered by some "pinko pussy" Democrati" President - that was Eisenhower's response to uniltateral Franco/British action in the Middle East.

I think Saddam has to go in order to ensure the rule of international law. I recognize that there are those more inclinded to admiration of Bismark than of Marshall who won't agree with that. I got no problem with that.



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Feb 27 2003, 03:07 PM

I made some Spagetti tonight and also made some French bread.

Am I guilty?

:bjump:

But..I dunno if I buy anything thats French.
What do they make or is everything imported over there from the US?

I'm not angry, I'm frightened. :(
He truly made it sound as if things are already in place - and his son's comments only serve to back that up. (Sure, it could just all be posturing, but I honestly don't think it is.)
Norfolk Naval Base is only a few miles away... if he *did* have long-range missiles, we'd be one of the first to go. Since he doesn't, it makes me even more uncertain and worried, thinking of the things that he could've gotten in here over the past few years.
I've just got this realllll bad feeling and I can't shake it. The interview brought it right up to the front of my mind. For some reason, I'm thinking Philadelphia is going to be a bad place to be once the war starts. I know there are more strategic places to strike, but Philly just keeps coming to mind.
The whole thing just makes me sick with worry, and what's worse is that I don't know what to expect and can't make any preparations to protect the boys whatsoever. :(

I feel a little foolish, because fear didn't occur to me.

I live in a town of 1600 8 miles from a town of 17,500. We're 4 hours from St. Louis and 5 1/2 from Chicago. That kind of isolation seems pretty protective until your girlfriend brings home all the information about her required smallpx vaccine - she's one of the Nursing Supervisors at the local hospital. So then, like a dumbshit, you've got go read up on a little epidemiology ... so much for the comfort of living in the country.

My two youngest daughters and my grandson live in St. Louis, and the talking heads on television mention it every time they discuss a possible terrorist attack on a national monument or on the "heartland." Sometimes I worry - that's a lie, I ALWAYS worry - about them. That they'll get carjacked, that they'll get hit by a drunk driver while crossing the street, that some fuckwad will exercise his 2nd Ammendment rights to an automatic weapon somewhere near my grandson's school, that my daughters will meet a guy just like I was at their age ... all the dangers of having kids. Now I worry about the possibility of a terrorist attack too.

The frustrating thing about this war is that, while necessary, it won't do anything against the terrorists who threaten America except egg them on and recruit new bodies for them. While I am not particularly concerned about Iraqi sleepers, there are plenty more folks that can regard this as an attack on their people, and do stupid, horrible things. That frightens me more.

I remember being scared shitless as a 9 year old during the Cuban Missle Crisis - but that was over and gone after two weeks. This is different. I'm sorry you're frightened. I'm sorry I'm frightened. But we're going to war. People get frightened when they go to war. Innocent civilians get frightened when we go to war. We just aren't used to being equally afraid.

My children are adults, and I'm still scared for them. I can only imagine how I'd feel if they were still little and all this was going on.

But can you imagine what it's like to be in Baghdad right now?



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Feb 28 2003, 05:21 AM

What would be the goal of a boycott of French products? I think a boycott of French products would be more likely to solidify French opinion than break it.

I'm not afraid at all right now. Don't know why. I guess I assume terrorists :ph34r: are already using their maximum capabilities. I don't think terrorists are waiting for anything. If they could do something, they'd do it right now.

(Nods to Afghani president Karzai on this thought)

Wish I could say that I thought that was true.

The strange thing is, we're supposedly about to go to war any second, right?

Then tell me why no one is checking my passport at the border anymore? We're supposed to be at a stage of "red alert" or something akin to that at the border crossing. A month ago, my trunk was still being opened, I'd be questioned as to what I was doing in Mexico, what I was planning to do in the US, etc. They at least made sure I was American before waving me through.

Now, I am American, but it's not that obvious, since half the Customs guys speak Spanish to me when I drive up. They're assuming that I'm Mexican until I open my mouth, but the last 4 times I've crossed, I haven't even had to speak.

My passport was issued in Guadalajara as a replacement, so it's not a laser passport, it looks funny. I am 100 pounds lighter than I was in the picture and my hair is a different color, so from looking at that pic from 3 feet away I doubt it even looks like me.

I've been seeing Mexicans getting waved through as well without the Customs agents swiping their visas to make sure they're real. It would be a real stretch to look at me and assume I'm from the Middle East, but one thing I remember thinking while looking at the footage during Desert Storm was, "Damn, these guys look Mexican".

If we're at war, why aren't we checking who's slipping across the border? Seems to me that San Ysidro, being the world's busiest border crossing, would be an excellent way for terrorists to get into the US.

I don't feel too safe. I doubt that Mexico would be much of a terrorist target, but I'm only 10 miles from the States as the crow flies. San Diego, with its multitude of military bases, is a juicy target for terrorists.

I guess that US Customs has given in to the pressure of people wanting a quick border crossing rather than acting as the first point of defense for America. I don't like long border crossings, but they don't open all the gates ever, better to have more agents and check everyone the way they did after 9/11 than to just wave everyone through for expediency's sake.

Geeze, Heather - that's bizarre :(

Heather,

That's FASCINATING that your passport wasn't checked. I would have never guessed that.

Isn't it true that there are plenty of terrorists that have the will to partake in terrorist actions here in the US? Where are they? I just can't believe that terrorists only plan to attack America once a decade. I think that's just the best they can do and that they are always trying.

I believe more in an Osama (for example) trying to get some shot off at the US than an Osama waiting for the right timing.

There are plenty of people willing to blow themselves up for a cause but not that many of them that have the will, the money, the resources, and from their point of view the good fortune to make it happen. Why go through all the trouble to get to America when one can just take a bus to Israel, walk into a shopping mall and blow yourself up hence assuring everlasting happiness in the after-life and martyrdom monetary payments to mother.

There will be more terrorist attacks here in America but I think their ability is for the most part limited to the above and when they happen to get lucky. I think one really needs the luck factor to play out and is the problem of trying to plan for specific dates and times.

What was the significance of September 11? Just a random day when they could happen to do it.

It was 9/11... 911... our own code for emergency; something we use only when in absolute fear and helplessness.
Specifically picked on that date for the significance of the numbers and what they mean to *us*, the victims.

Heather, your report from the border doesn't make me feel any better. *L* It does make me wonder though why people choose to go across the desert and sneak in when crossing through the gates sounds so simple? I would guess that this is part of the new love affair between Bush and Fox - and it doesn't look like either America nor Mexico are benefitting from the lax security.

PD - Castlehawke came home with a similar paper the week before last. Not smallpox vaccinations, but an 8-page printout that they made all of the Lockheed Martin employees take home regarding evacuation, emergency planning and "creating a disaster plan", and how to assemble a disaster kit with the most comprehensive list of things to put in it that I've ever seen (nearly 4 pages).
There's a close copy of it here on FEMA's site:
http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fdsk.pdf

Lockheed is sending home these printouts.
City officials and emergency personnel are being "advised" or even "required" to get smallpox vaccinations.
But don't worry... heavy plastic sheeting and duct tape will save you. Oh never mind... we're reducing the threat level. Just go back to what you were doing and don't think about any of this...
*sigh*

I have as much faith in the government's advice about duct tape and plastic sheeting as I did in the drills we used to have in grade school to "survive" a nuclear attack.

Come to think of it, Tom Ridge does kinda look like that turtle ... :D

It was 9/11... 911... our own code for emergency; something we use only when in absolute fear and helplessness.
Specifically picked on that date for the significance of the numbers and what they mean to *us*, the victims.[/b][/quote]
How do you know that it it was "Specifically picked on that date for the significance of the numbers and what they mean to *us*"? Speculation or other?

The boycot of France have spread to Denmark:

http://hyggestedet.dk/aagespizza/ :yowsa:

Great link Rolo!