Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Far-L, Wankability isn't the issue here, you've completely missed my whole point. Let me restate.

It's the existence of those long clips that is driving the traffic on these illegal tubes. Surfers visit Pornhub because of the existence of that stolen content. If the long clips weren't there then Pornhub would be no different than the hundreds of other tube sites with sponsor provided promo clips, and modest traffic volume.

As for your question, "How are you or I to know what is or is not being put up there with or without consent?" That's really not difficult at all. Do you see any links back to the originating site on most of that content? Are the watermarks still readable on the clips? The answer is no on the vast majority of the long clips. In addition, I've read comments by numerous producers stating that they've not authorized use of long clips on any site.

The bottom line is really quite clear and irrefutable. If you're doing biz with Pornhub et. al. then you're supporting content theft.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Could have just as easily come from "The Godfather".

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Far-L I have to say its kinda sad to see you making so many excuses.....

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Many of us will agree on this point that your probably right.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

yeah I can see that.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

I sort of get it, but its not a matter of settling any issue, its a matter of stopping piracy....theft of assets...once and for all. Everything else is just double speak. Karl Rove 101

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

:jerry:

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Jerry wishes he had that kind of traffic volume. :rolleyes:

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Far-L
You mis-understand, my message in response to the mood change was in defense Of YOU.

I thought you posted a perfectly open and friendly thread, and it was quickly turned into something nasty, very quick. And it wasn't warranted.

I was about to say, and will say, I think you can do whatever you want with YOUR content, and any clown that complains about it should confine themselves to any content, they themselves created.

Please contact me via private message with a current direct contact info.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

So I can put you down in the column under "supports content theft" as well. :rolleyes:

This is far more complex than just doing what you want with your own content. This is a case of exploiting stolen content (or more precisely the traffic generated by the unauthorized use of that stolen content) for financial gain. Personally, I don't need the money badly enough to crawl in bed with thieves.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

No, thank you Toby, you can't put words in my mouth. I don't accept your premise. It's exactly like I said. I know FAR-L and the Homegrown people would have nothing to do with theft, and because they may have made a legit deal with someone about their content, doesn't make them "supporting everything else that party may or MAY NOT do." (I honestly don't know the other people, and frankly, don't care to.)
They aren't answerable to you for their content, or how they want to market their product. I haven't checked, but I'll bet it's their name on the electric Bill.

Next, you'll say, because I wrote a few articles for a magazine, I was somehow responsible for an ad for one of the crooked vendors that may have appeared in the same issue with something I wrote?

While the rest of the industry stood around pulling Their collective pud, homegrown stood up against Acacia with their own money. I remember that one, do you? Everyone was hiding under the blankets and hoping Acacia wouldn't notice their website, while these guys went out and Kicked Acacia's ass.
On THEIR dime. (and they're STILL paying.) EVERYONE in ANY kind of streaming business OWES THEM.
The entire streaming video WORLD (not just adult,) benefited from their efforts. And if you can't see that, then man, I feel sorry for you.

And still, the "armchair legal minds" sat around on boards spouting off about how much bullshit it was. But they said it quietly, from under cover.
Not a whole lot of folks sending them checks, or joining the fight.
I for one, am VERY grateful.

If I knew nothing else about the Homegrown folks, that would be enough of a character statement to squelch any thought as to their "intentions."

I don't know what it is that's made you so bitter recently, but after knowing your words for so many years to be level headed, I gotta tell you, I've been wondering.

:scratchin

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

You are another sophist. All you are doing is making colorful and insulting analogies that may or may not fitly describe the situation... but you sound clever making them I will give you that... no matter how insulting they are.

Didn't you used to go buy a different name in the amateur masters board heydey? Why did you change it? I find that... highly... suspicious.

You call Acacia a tempest in a teapot? Then for one that proves how little you know and basically reveals how seriously you should be considered in your opinion. Tell that to Time Warner, AOL, or any of the other parties in the case and see if they agree with you.

You only are trying to disparage me with highly personal attacks just like back in the day. Some things never change. Working with the tubes we work with doesn't make me "bad". You may not agree with it but you have yet to make one real point that makes one iota of sense on deeper inspection.

For example, let me take your silly crack analogy and twist it another way... who is more ethical, the dealer that sells uncut product in a free society where drugs are legal or the cop that plants drugs on a suspect to make a bust in a society where those same drugs are illegal? I see you as the dirty cop.

I have never condoned stealing content and for any of you to infer otherwise is just plain wrong.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Actually you are the one missing the point and I would have figured that you would not need it spelled out, but since that is not the case I will do my best to make it simple and clear enough for you to understand.

You and I both know that tgp started with stolen content and mgp as well. You also know that both of those changed in due course due to changing trends in the industry - namely, copyright holders policed their content more and the main purveyors of those traffic pumps changed to be compliant with legalities or face litigation... Now if I am not mistaken, you used to use tgp/mgp to get traffic, correct me if I am wrong, but who did you work with if that was or still is the case? Were all of them squeaky clean from day one? I bet not. In fact, none of them still are because the fact remains that despite their best efforts unauthorized content still gets posted time and again. Or maybe you worked with top list trade scripts? Well, all of those were sorely misused and abused so did that make you a crook because you supported that and did your best to use them in an honest fashion? So what does that make everyone that used or continues to use those advertising methods? Crooks? Tell that to every program out there and see what kind of response you get.

Maybe when you guys get away from trying to accuse me of being dishonest and unethical then something more intelligent can enrich this discussion.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Much appreciated, EJ, i apologize for knocking on you previously. You are still good people in my book... no matter what Thrillhammer says about you. ;-)

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Far-L, you can justify this in your own mind any way you wish, but the fact is that you are doing business with content thieves who are exploiting the traffic generated by the unauthoriized use of stolen content for financial gain. This isn't just my opinion, but based on numerous public discsussions on multiple boards over the last several years it's the prevailing opinion within the industry.

What TGP/MGP did in the distant past is irrelevant. And for the record, I've never knowingly traded traffic with other TGPs that were using stolen content. There hasn't been much stolen content on TGP's in many many years.

What is relevant is what Pornhub is doing today.

I can see you're too deeply invested in your position at this point to change it, so there is but one thing left for me to do. I shall add Homegrown to my blacklisted sponsors alongside Brazzers, AFF, Dee's Evil Empire, Incredible Dollars,Twistys, Kink.com and some others. I will not promote, nor will I accept galleries from others that promote these sponsors. I'm just one small webmaster, but I know there are others that feel the same about doing biz with Pornhub.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

He's just mad 'cause he's gotta drag that damn heavy chair all over the place......and I looked better on TV.

:yowsa:

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

I'm not bitter, nor have I changed my views. The only thing that is different is that I am a bit more outspoken.

You're the only one in this thread defending Far-L's position. That in itself speaks volumes.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

The easiest way to see the effects of long clip tubes sites on the business is to look at what those sites are selling. Hint: They ain't selling porn.

What they are doing is turning porn into the throwaway, the gimmie, the gimmick that gets people in the door. It isn't what they are intending to sell. They are trying to sell dating, cams, and just about any well paying scam of the month.

If their intention was to sell porn, they would do it with short clips. When they are putting up long clips, full scenes, or full scenes split over a couple of files you know that their intention isn't to sell porn.

So every time you allow a video of yours to run on one of these sites, you are teaching more people not to pay for porn (it's a freebie!) and you are degrading the value of your content and back catalog with it.

Short term, you might see some sales, but in the long run, a whole generation is learning not to pay.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

You've always been outspoken. And usually, level headed. And for years, I've respected your opinion. But in this case, I guess we just disagree. And there is nothing wrong with people disagreeing, I suppose.

You bet I support Far-l. Character counts. And in the last 11 years of the online biz that I've known Far-l, I know he's a standup guy, honest, and very helpful to the industry. As is his brother, and Spike.

And even if I didn't personally KNOW about their character, I would still be on the "content creator/owner's" side on this.
It is, very simply, the golden rule. "he who holds the gold, makes the golden rule."
It's Their product. THEY aren't doing anything wrong, except marketing their product in a way that has somehow tripped the "Toby moral alarm."

I don't know about the tube people, maybe they did what they are accused of. But I don't have an opinion, because they are just a company accused of something.
There is alot of that going around with these tube people...all of them. The big guys too. and with direct interaction.....ie, they own the site(s.) Why aren't you railing against them?

I didn't see one of them on your list.

So, if you want to say my defense of Far-L speaks something?
You bet. I'll take that. With Honor.

I don't agree with your interpretation of what it means, but I'll stand with them.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

I have no idea who you're referring to. Brazzers is on the list. They're the owners of Pornhub, Tube8, Keezmovies and Extremetube. If you're aware of other major sponsors/producers that own/operate illegal tube sites then by all means name them and show me the evidence they're connected. I'll add them to my blacklist.

Not every sponsor on my blacklist is there for the same reason. In fact most are there due to overly aggressive pre-checked cross sales.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Crap-

Let's dial this clock back.
This EXACT same scenario started 25 years ago.

From '85-94, I owned a chain of video stores in Central PA. We had an adult room, and that's where the profit was.

And we had new releases, and we had cheap stuff. And even today, ALL the studios sell DVDs for a $1 or less wholesale. It's called a "loss leader."
Sell the cheap stuff for next to nothing, get them in the "store," and sell them something else. Next time you walk in a drug store, explain why they are selling motor oil, and candy?

A (legitimate) tube site is just the same thing. Piracy is theft, plain and simple. But there are some awful; fuzzy licensing deals in this industry, and there is "fair use" in marketing a product. I don't know that any of that explains the current situation, but neither does anyone else. Certainly not another vendor that happens to be on the site, selling their product through the same "store front."

Personally, tube sites don't help, or hurt my business. I can understand why it worries website owners that have been selling someone else's products for years, through a nicely designed website, and making 50+% on others' work, with no value added.

Maybe it's time to take a hard look at the "membership model" websites have been doing for years? You had a great run, but the market is changing.


When I grew up TV was "Free." We had an antenna, and a rotor, and we were forced to watch 10 minutes per hour in commercials to "pay" for the content. Now, people pay upwards of $200/month for this same "free" TV model, with 20+ minutes of commercials. Who is complaining about THAT rip off?

Point being, markets change, adapt or die. But don't blame the public that wants something for free because we taught them that. You might as well shake your fist at the sun for giving you a sunburn.

(Nobody is gonna like this, but it's true)

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

It would be inappropriate of me to name them for several reasons, not least of which, is, I'm not privy to the details of the situation, only what I read in the media. Smart fellow like you will probably have it come to you. And frankly, I'd prefer you didn't ask me to confirm it when it does.

So I choose NOT to attack other people, even when I know for a fact they are using others' intellectual property in a way I don't approve of. It's Not my place to tell them how to run their business.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

So, you either think I am wise and philisophical or specious. I will assume the former, though I am sure, as your rhetoric implies, you mean the latter.
I have to take acception. I actually tell it like I see it and talk it like I walk it. Sooooo.....Acacia? Time Warner et al? Even big companies can be intimidated. I have always thought and still do, that patent was going to crash and burn one way or the other. That whole deal was up to you. At the time, I offered two thousand dollars to support that fight and never heard back from your little coalition. Talk to your good friend JMM....perhaps he had something to do with that. another stellar individual and close friend of yours.
And yes....as Toby says, theft is theft and you have been caught with your fingers in the cookie jar.
And, as I said before, this theft that you are defending is more harmful to the business than Acacia ever was. The worst that could have happened with them was license fees. This shit that Homegrown is supporting by propping up thieves, is actually putting people out of business. I just shake my head that a company like yours continues to defend this.

Bullshit.


.
Buy a name? What does that mean????lololol
And what is suspicious exactly?

I gotta admit, you still post like the old days with your non oxford dictionary. Words as weapons.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on the TV thing. First off, TV was never "FREE!", it was just without apparent cost. But first, you had to buy a receiver (often expensive), and you have to power it, and then you had to sit through commercials. You paid for TV with your attention.

Plenty of people are complaining about paying high dollars for "FREE!" tv, usually until you tell them to stick an antenna outside and see what they get. They would miss their A&E, FX, ESPN, CNN, and all those other channels that they get.

Cable or Sat isn't selling you TV, they are selling you reception.

As for "markets change", I get in to this discussion often enough in the mainstream world. The simple fact is if nobody is paying for porn, porn will no longer be made at the same level it is made now. The current situation is untenable for both sides, because the tubes are entirely reliant on low to no cost high quality porn they can push to sell their dating and cam shows, and the porn companies aren't making enough money to keep making the porn. If and when the porn business can no longer supply the content, both sides fail.

As I have said to many before, I can't help but thinking that porn (and news, and other things) will all move to "pay per view" or "pay per use" environments, and get out of the types of "FREE!" promotions that aren't doing anything but helping other industries who have no intention of paying for the content to start with.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Ok, thanks for actually saying something intelligent and not making a personal attack on me.

I thought the same thing about free content years ago. I couldn't believe people would give away, gasp, photos of cumshots... ie, the MONEY SHOT!!! I thought why pay when you could get free money all day long. Well, that of course turned out not to be the case, and today I doesn't seem different. I say that because why would any of the tube traffic convert for us? And sometimes converts really well under the circumstances...

I have used the example before and I will use it again here. Free tv and pay tv. You can catch Sopranos for free edited and years after it played on HBO unedited. That is essentially how people are using the tubes. Most, like us, "recycle" the content in tubes but it is no where near the quality people find inside Homegrown. Nor is there any where near the kind of customer service and member experience. Now I agree that sites that don't have what we have or do what we do will be hurt by tubes in the manner you describe, but that was no different during the height of tgp/mgp when customers would get inside certain member areas and think... "wtf, I have seen all this stuff already for free!" Am I supposed to be struggling to worry about those site's programs? Sorry, but no. The sooner they disappear the better for every single quality membership based site as far as I am concerned.

The time tested adage of you get what you pay for still applies, imo.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

lol. Busted. You can't be that oblivious or that much in denial can you? The relevance is very much the point and exactly why you come out looking like an even bigger hypocrate to deny it. You are in essence saying, "if I didn't know about it or it happened in the past then as far as you are concerned it didn't happen." Sounds like kind of loosey goosey moral authority as far as I am concerned.

Sorry to hear we are blacklisted from something that never ever supported us one bit in the first place. I can see your efforts against those other programs have been highly successful.

Guess I better go back to doing gang bangs for $50 bucks a pop in LA.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Leave it to you to start hammering for my late night typos after playing 5 hours of hockey. Get off the sauce, rummy. You aren't adding anything to this discussion other than your bilious nature. If you have nothing to say other than I made a grammatical mistake then you have already revealed that your contribution to this business discussion is just a bunch of bluster to try sounding important and superior.

By the way, that comment about offering money to the defense group is an utter and complete lie. What did you do? Post in a thread that you would help? So what, so did a hundred other people that never did any more than make that claim to look like they were "behind us". You never contacted us. My phone and email was, is, and will always be easy to find. You never offered money. Maybe you thought you did that during one of your drunken stupors but I assure you that is incorrect.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Give me a fuckin' break and quit evading the damn issue. I'm not oblivious nor am I denying that it happened. The fact that it happened isn't at issue unless you think I personally did biz with them and am therefore no longer credible. I did not then and I do not now. I check out my trade partners pretty closely. I can't recall the last time I found stolen content on a TGP requesting a trade.

I have had a few galleries submitted to my TGPs with stolen content. Those submitters were immediately blacklisted and other TGP owners where they submitted were notified, as well as the owner of the content and the site they were trying to promote with the stolen content.

The TGP past is irrelevant because it's not currently at issue. What is at issue is that Pornhub currently contains mostly stolen content and you don't seem to have any qualms about doing business with them. If the stolen content was in their past, but they were running a clean site today, we wouldn't be having this disussion.

Pornhub is dirty now, and you are doing business with them now. That's the only issue that is relevant.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

I think though you are denying one reality: It isn't your old content that is on tube sites (and / or out on torrents), it is the brand new stuff.

Example, I wrote a blog entry yesterday about content that a sponsor had just added hours before. When I went to check, the content was indexed into Google on tube sites and on torrents, literally within hours of it's release.

Your content isn't any more or any less protected than that. I am sure that you can find content that is only weeks old already widely available for free, in full.

Tube sites that work with illegal or questionably sourced material, who play exceptionally long clips, etc, are not doing you any favors. They aren't giving you promotion, they are giving your valuable product away, and lowering it's market price. Heck, with over exposure, it could even lose it's actual value.

If you were talking about only 4 or 5 year old content, perhaps you might have a point. But fresh content is out there, and you appear to be saying that it isn't important that you support or work with one of the tube sites with the dirtiest hands of all.

http://www.pornhub.com/view_video.ph...key=2076915176

How much porn is being promoted here? NONE. They already know what you are denying, that their customers know that the market value of porn is zero. 81 minute video? No problem, we aren't selling porn, we are selling adult friend finder and bigger penises. There isn't a single porn link out of there. That should tell you everything you need to know. You are not getting promotion, you are getting used. That they happen to use lube instead of dry humping your corporate ass doesn't really change the result, just how much you think it hurts.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

In your assessment of "free tv" you claim that it wasn't free because you had to pay for the reciever, antenna, etc. and that is essentially "paying for reception" too, right? Well, cable makes you pay a premium for reception AND content. However, also in your example the content providers never profited from which tv or antenna you bought, while cable operators do pay the content providers for subscriptions, even if they are collected as "packages" or "bundles" of content including the channels you named.

I agree that pay per use or view will always be strong, but I also think that a premium can be charged for a quality member experience... as long as membership has its privileges so to speak. I believe it is human nature to strive for elite and privileged experiences, entertainment or otherwise.

C'mon... after sex can be free, right? So why do people pay for it. Even billionaires. Even movie stars. And so on, throughout history.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Precisely my point. What tgp's did you work with? All the top ones that I know of admit openly that they started with unauthorized content. If you did business with any of them then you knowingly or unknowingly, doesn't matter which, worked with admitted scammers. Now you want to sit in a glass house and throw stones at me like you are somehow superior. What makes that worse is you think that because it happened yesterday instead of today makes a difference. Well, to the truly ethical person it does not.

I don't know what content is or is not authorized on Pornhub. All I know is that they have proactively and professionally and responsibly handled my issues with our content being used without permission. And that is what we use as a measure of whether or not they are intentionally stealing OUR content. Other companies may have had a different experience, but that is their matter as a company to deal with. Maybe the Pink Visual lawsuit will prove otherwise and I can see the situation in more black and white terms like you so clearly do. When that day comes, if it comes, because I doubt it will, then I will be happy to admit my wrongness.

Until then, do me a favor and lay off your baseless accusations and admit your own "unclean hands".

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

My first TGP didn't go online until 2004. It and all but my most recent are narrow niche fetish wear specific. I don't trade with large general category TGP's. I trade with other niche relevant TGPs. Even if some of them were involved in content theft years ago, I still fail to see what that has to do with today. If they're clean now, and have been so for years, then their traffic today is clean.

Stolen content on TGPs hasn't been more than an isolated issue for many years, ever since sponsor hosted galleries became the norm.

My hands are clean, and your attempts to discredit me rather than address the real issue have become rather transparent.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

right or wrong gonzo should give far-l a free banner on oprano. I dont remember ever seeing a 3 page thread here. lol

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

So, you are ok with those tgp that "cleaned up their act". Well, as far as I can tell, all the tubes we are working with seem to be making the same effort so what is the difference? Degrees of cleanliness? That is like degrees of pregnancy as far as I am concerned. You either are clean or you are not and if you are not then how you deal with it is what look at and what I deal with accordingly... just like you apparently.

I successfully discredited you already so doing so again at this point is useless. I have responded to your allegation directly by concrete historical examples and I didn't rely on any sort of insinuation or personal insult to try and disparage you unfairly, as you have been doing to me.

I have dealt with our unauthorized usage and I continue to do so. I have been very proactive about protecting our content. If anyone does not respond to our request for removal then we get very upset and seek legal remedy immediately. We work with tubes that are proactively removing our unauthorized content and fairly promoting our authorized content. My job is not to protect my competition's content as that responsibility rests on them. That is my position. I am not ducking or avoiding anything. Take it or leave it.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

You havent been around here a long time Tony. Threads have pushed 30 pages or more until we all got busy working other ways besides the economics of piss.

This is a heated topic and its being aggressively debated. The difference is that most of the people debating actually know each other as opposed to being keyboard warriors.

They are also businessmen who have a degree of respect for each other.

That being said Farrell is my oldest friend in this business and he knows how to get in contact with me should he need to for any reason.

Toby is someone that I have met in the last 5 years or more that I respect as well as Graham.

Its a good debate.... you have Farrell representing HGV as a studio.... Graham who represents the individual director/ content producer and Toby whos role is a pure affiliate.

At this point I have nothing constructive to add so Im reading just like you are.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Thanks, I just want to add for the sake of clarity that I am a program owner/partner, content producer, and the affiliate of many other programs... and have been around long enough to see this debate come up time and time again. Really, there are two debates here, free vs pay, and authorized vs stolen. For me, the first is full of varying shades of grey while the other is black and white. The problem is the line between the two debates gets blurred by emotions like anger and anxiety.

As an aside... One has only to plumb the old amateur board archives to see that I have been down the piss trail with Graham on more that one occasion. Nothing new there.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

You've not done a thing to discredit me but attempt to make general references to past practices of a some old TGPs that I've never had any dealings with. Your examples have nothing at all to do with doing business in the here and now with content thieves. I would have had the same issues with doing business with those old TGP sites when they were content thieves. (BTW, damn few of them still exist, and those few that do remain are mostly under different ownership. The only thing still the same about the majoirity of those sites is the domain name)

I'm not currently dealing with thieves, nor have I knowingly done so in the past. If Porhub et al were truly trying to clean up their act, all of the unauthorized clips would be gone from their sites. Until then, they are in the content theft business. No grey area, no degrees of clean. Either there is a large quantity of stolen content on their sites or there is not. At this point the vast majority of clips on their sites is still stolen content.

As for having dealings with those that were shady in the past, they'd first need to demonstrate they can operate a clean site for a substantial time. As I stated earlier, content theft on TGPs is ancient history, it hasn't been an issue in many many years so the point is more or less moot.

You can keep dancing with the Devil, but sooner or later there will be a price to pay.

P.S. That old amateur board no longer exists, the archive is long gone, only the domain survives, much like those old TGPs.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Ok, so as long as you didn't knowingly deal with thieves you are somehow superior? Ok. Tell that one to the judge.

How much of Pornhub is stolen content? Please tell me something specific and not based on hearsay. I don't know. All I know is they take our stuff down when asked if it goes up and they replace it with our branded version. Sounds like they are making an effort to clean up. If not, then hopefully that Pink Visual lawsuit will make it clear for you, me, and everyone else that has a dog in this fight.

But seriously, you still need remedial courses in logic and ethics.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

Scanning through the clips on that site, assuming the most recent week of uploads are an accurate sampling, then about 80% or more of the clips are from unauthorized sources. If you want a more accurate figure from another source then maybe Gonzo can get Eric from RemoveYourContent to give his estimate on that figure.

I'll take the remedial course recommendation under advisement, but since you're the only one in my nearly 50 years on this planet to question my logic or my ethics I just don't see that happening.

Re: Homegrown remembers when...
 

I have to wonder from my own experience what is it you are doing right that others are ineffective with concerning your content with Pornhub.

I know several studios that have tried getting a line of communication with them that couldnt even get a fuck you.

Maybe thats something to take constructively away from this debate.

And I know its no excuse but we both know the very foundation of this industry was built on stolen content. The audio file in this very thread circa 1993 chronicles Lee Noga being busted for selling stolen content to sysops on the Busty Babes series CDs. I have one right here as a matter of fact.

That being said Ive unknowingly supported some scary billing practices in the past.

And I made my share of cash with Wegcash as they paid me for email addresses that I realized later were being collected to spam. That looks harmless now when you compare their free tube site that will recur to a $106 charge in 3 days if you were naive enough to give up a credit card.

It is apparent that each of us have to decide what the cost of doing business is and where to draw the line.

Ill have to honestly say I dont agree with what your doing but I dont think that makes you a bad person either.

All in all Im not one to judge as Im not in your shoes and I dont have the same business pressures as you.

What Im trying to say is that if some of us dont start to work together towards some solutions there isnt going to be much left to make a living with very soon.

Its not just the tube issue.

This industry as a whole has trained the consumer that in most cases they can get their jerk on for free. The ones left willing to pay for value live in fear of being hammered with a bunch of charges for things they didnt want.

Its a perfect storm if you add in the recession and the low bar of entry to make your own porno.

I dont have any of the answers and from what Ive seen no one else does either.

Does anyone reading have any suggestions?