this is what i am talking about.

"they will do it to me" ????

do you have anymore info?

when?
where?
why?

i am innocent. i swear.

<JR rehearsing pleading for his life>

Please Mr. Government Man,... dont take out my liver with that spoon and force me to eat it. Please!?!?!"

</JR rehearsing pleading for his life>

They'll do it to me if I train to kill Americans and plot to perform terrorist acts....

I can live with that...

BTW, I am no big fan of the Patriot Act...it is not being abused here...

but dont think for a second that i don't appreciate the value of alarmists in society.

you worry about everything, so i dont have to.

:bdance:

This is an American citizen. What they taught me in Civics class oh so long ago is that an American citizen has a right to trial by Jury, and a lawyer to defend himself. You may consider it silly, or irrelevant, or alarmist, or any number of other things - but as a kid raised on the idea that the difference between America and the society in which Serge grew up is that the government could not levy charges against you without providing you the opportunity to defend yourself.

This brings up a curious word, "proof".

I haven't seen any proof that this man *was* training with Al Quaeda or that he planned to blow up Americans.
Neither have you, because the evidence has not been presented in a court of law. It's just someone's say-so at this point.

If they grabbed Serge tomorrow and threw him in prison for sending coded terrorist messages on Cotac.com, would you believe them or would you be telling them to prove it?

If they threw *you* in prison tomorrow claiming that *you* were part of Al Quaeda and planning to blow up Americans, would you sit there calmly or demand a lawyer and a trial?

Terrorism is a very interesting agenda. As of 9/11, there have been no other verifiable attacks on the US. But the US as we knew it before 9/11 and as it is know has changed. Maybe for the good, as some would have us believe, and maybe for the bad, as others would have us believe. But the government, as it is, finds ways to try and protect us. Within this ring of protection are people that justify their jobs and exploit their inner dark sides of manipulation and power. I'm sure their are gov. employees that are doing the job they do, as best as they can and then at 5pm they go home to their wife and kids. But there are the few, but highly placed few, that feel that they need to stick it to someone, anyone, maybe even you. These few are so deeply embedded and so well connected that they can do no wrong. These are the other terrorists. The ones that can make your life and mine a living hell, just because they can. City, county, state, and federal, they all have these over acheiver.

This brings up a curious word, "proof".

I haven't seen any proof that this man *was* training with Al Quaeda or that he planned to blow up Americans.
Neither have you, because the evidence has not been presented in a court of law. It's just someone's say-so at this point.

If they grabbed Serge tomorrow and threw him in prison for sending coded terrorist messages on Cotac.com, would you believe them or would you be telling them to prove it?

If they threw *you* in prison tomorrow claiming that *you* were part of Al Quaeda and planning to blow up Americans, would you sit there calmly or demand a lawyer and a trial?[/b][/quote]
Huh?!?!

his case has been in court. it is a unique situation. it was a first time. the law is being tested, the authority and claims of the government are being tested ... and a Federal judge ruled quite a while ago that he has the right to access to an attorney.

what is it exactly that will happen again? what can happen to me?

these are unique issues being tested in the courts for the first time. and THEY ARE being tested as we speak. are you guys even aware of the rulings on his case?

it seems that you aren't.

How is Bush coming to get you if the courts have the final say?

and who voted for it?
officials elected by you,
thus they represent the prevailing =view of the citizens of thsi country.
live with it

exactly! this is the lunacy of their ideas. they support democracy as long as they agree with it. if not, then people are "sheep", brainwashed and being tricked and lied to and the ruling party are Nazi's.

crazy.

so you answered my question:
you have no kids and your own perception of the government is much more important than the lives of the children you don't have.

jefferson, shmefferson, hagen, 10 years, fiction...
even hagen could see for the 10 years span,
you can't...the life of your children is not in your equation.

dont hurt yourselves with all this information
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?p...4&notFound=true


"A U.S. citizen accused of plotting to explode a radiological "dirty bomb" in the United States must be granted access to an attorney to challenge his detention as an enemy combatant, a federal judge in New York ruled yesterday.

The ruling, part of a broad, 102-page decision by Michael B. Mukasey, chief judge for New York's Southern District, rejected the Bush administration's assertion that allowing Jose Padilla access to his attorney would impede intelligence gathering and jeopardize national security."





"In his decision, Mukasey said "the central issue" in the case was whether "the president has the authority to designate as an unlawful combatant an American citizen, captured on American soil, and detain him without trial."

The president did have that right, Mukasey wrote, rejecting Padilla's argument that the Constitution prohibits the indefinite detention of a U.S. citizen. The president, in his role as commander in chief, can designate Americans as enemy combatants, Mukasey ruled, adding that it was not necessary to address concerns that Padilla's detention, like the war on terrorism, could go on indefinitely."




"The Padilla case is one of several working their way through the legal system to test the Bush administration's claim of broad powers to wage a war on terrorism. Yesterday, the full federal appeals court in Philadelphia, reaffirming the position of a three-judge panel, upheld the legality of closed-door immigration hearings for terror suspects."

exactly! this is the lunacy of their ideas. they support democracy as long as they agree with it. if not, then people are "sheep", brainwashed and being tricked and lied to and the ruling party are Nazi's.

crazy.[/b][/quote]
Gee ... whatever happened to

exactly! this is the lunacy of their ideas. they support democracy as long as they agree with it. if not, then people are "sheep", brainwashed and being tricked and lied to and the ruling party are Nazi's.

crazy.[/b][/quote]
JR, it's FEAR talking in them, and not the fear for this country, it's future, it's economy,
it's fear for their today's piece of bread.

who the fuck cares what would happen with this country if ONE dirty bomb is blown in LA or NY in comparission for their "Jefferson's given right to seel porn on the Internet"?

Gee ... whatever happened to [/b][/quote]
i was commenting on your criticism of people exercising the same rights you claim to defend.

Carrie, as your know,
Serge was born and raised in the Communist State and has his survival skill to match the skills of Founding Fathers.
The entire Oprano, GFY and Netpond will demand my release, because the first thing I'd do is to name everybody I met on the boards as my co-conspirators.

Why do you think we record IP's of every poster?

Because EVERYBODY transmit coded messages and I already made a deal with a prosecution
;-))))

have a friend who whispered shadows of kolyma into my ear about his great grandother, fear, fear is a cold memory...

kolyma means death.

:stout:

exactly! this is the lunacy of their ideas. they support democracy as long as they agree with it. if not, then people are "sheep", brainwashed and being tricked and lied to and the ruling party are Nazi's.

crazy.[/b][/quote]
Our system isn't perfect. However, I'm hopeful that people will speak up when their rights are being stepped on.

I'm also hopeful that the Judicial system will continue to strike down unconstitutional laws.

Which I why I posted this thread in the first place. If you feel this is wrong, write a letter.

http://www.senate.com/

Well, I think it's interesting that Carrie and I are taking the same position, because it happens about as often as Torone and I do.

JR, as I told you, the "good little German" remark was meant tounge-in-cheek. I still see it as little different as suggesting that I am living in the past.

And Serge ... no offense, but your analysis of what causes my concern couldn't be further off base. I don't relate this to porn at all. I oppose the erosion of civil rights, pure and simple. I don't believe that denying this individual the same rights as any other alleged criminal is going to materially impact whether New York or L.A. becomes a target.

As far as the "live with it" bullshit - it don't get undone if enough people don't make enough noise. Otherwise, Serge could be snatched up by the revenuers for his wine collection - that was a "done deal" once, too.



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Dec 1 2003, 12:32 AM

Our system isn't perfect. However, I'm hopeful that people will speak up when their rights are being stepped on.

I'm also hopeful that the Judicial system will continue to strike down unconstitutional laws.

Which I why I posted this thread in the first place. If you feel this is wrong, write a letter.

http://www.senate.com/[/b][/quote]
just because you bring forth 3 criminals, and expect us to accept the release of one for your malicious purposes, does not mean the criminal you releases is any more free than the truth speaker you hold captive.

i really dont expect you to understand.

'tripping on real blood and strange sunshine'

:stout:



Last edited by Fletch XXX at Nov 30 2003, 09:34 PM

Carrie, as your know,
Serge was born and raised in the Communist State and has his survival skill to match the skills of Founding Fathers.
The entire Oprano, GFY and Netpond will demand my release, because the first thing I'd do is to name everybody I met on the boards as my co-conspirators.

Why do you think we record IP's of every poster?

Because EVERYBODY transmit coded messages and I already made a deal with a prosecution
;-))))[/b][/quote]
I haven't been a co-consirator since the 60s. What a flashback ...

and I say that the security of the country prevails over his right...

whata you gonna do about it?
;-))

we don't have to agree on it
;-)))

Otherwise, Serge could be snatched up by the revenuers for his wine collection - that was a "done deal" once, too.
*************************************************

they gonna get KADOHAS!
I drink it and ONLY have few cases of Coppolla 2001 Merlot at $12 per bottle...hardly worth a trouble
;-)))

We have gone from a country that spent over 30 years as the lead critic in rallying about human rights violations in other countries, to becoming a country that commits them in ours. I find nothing to be proud about in this.

That information seems to be a bit outdated. The Gov't appealed that lower court's decision.

Apparently, as of 11/23/2003 he still hadn't had access to a lawyer, judge or his family.

http://www.courierpress.com/ecp/editorials...2447636,00.html

"Before Padilla could see a lawyer, he was declared an enemy combatant and shipped off to a brig in South Carolina where he has been held in solitary ever since - with no access to a lawyer, a judge or his family. "

You mean as embarrassing as when the US was voted out of the UN Commission on Human Rights?

..and my heart bleeds for him.

KC, what should I do to wind your biological clock?

When you have your own family to worry about, you'll have less worries about dirty bomb terrorists...

and between us boys:
is Bush responcible for no terror acts since 9/11 on American siol or Thomas Jefferson and the entire judicial system?

And the govt is doing this, despite the bad publicity and understandable (but predictable) criticism of the administration....because...

He has bad breath?

That information seems to be a bit outdated. The Gov't appealed that lower court's decision.

Apparently, as of 11/23/2003 he still hadn't had access to a lawyer, judge or his family.

http://www.courierpress.com/ecp/editorials...2447636,00.html

"Before Padilla could see a lawyer, he was declared an enemy combatant and shipped off to a brig in South Carolina where he has been held in solitary ever since - with no access to a lawyer, a judge or his family. "[/b][/quote]
I agree with you for the most part KC. my point is simply that the system is working as it should. something new was injected into the system and the courts are dealing with it under the watchful scrutiny of the entire planet.

most seem to think its because he is Mexican.

and the reason we have political system today as we have is because Founding Fathers didn't beleive that common folk knows what's good for him.
Let common folk elect the representative and representative is the one whose voice is heard.

Ancient Greece had a true Democracy. Majority rules.
did it do much good to them? nope...Rome got them

And the govt is doing this, despite the bad publicity and understandable (but predictable) criticism of the administration....because...

He has bad breath?[/b][/quote]
No, he's a terrorist. We know this - the governement has said so.

They would produce the proof, but they've misplaced it. It's apparently underneath the stash of Weapons of Mass Destruction that Saddam Hussein was ready to deploy on 45 minutes notice.

most seem to think its because he is Mexican.[/b][/quote]
..and Moslem. He should convert to Judaism,
than the entire "Jewish Nation" will demand to send him a Jewish Lawyer
;-))))

No, he's a terrorist. We know this - the governement has said so.

They would produce the proof, but they've misplaced it. It's apparently underneath the stash of Weapons of Mass Destruction that Saddam Hussein was ready to deploy on 45 minutes notice.[/b][/quote]
Fuckin' Government...they should have waited another 10 years ...

What kind of leaders we have?
They anticipate and ACT accordingly instead of waiting for Gallop polls results...shame, shame, I wanna be ruled by Gallop!
;-))))

You mean as embarrassing as when the US was voted out of the UN Commission on Human Rights?[/b][/quote]
I am SO glad you brought that up, JR! Because it is another example of Bush's handy work, and one that CANNOT be defended by saying "it's just Bush after 9/11" as that happened PRIOR to 9/11.

Again, thank you! :inlove:

some diplomats said they believed the Bush administration's opposition to the Kyoto climate change treaty as well as its insistence on a missile defense contributed to the loss
***************************************

which was VERY logical assumption as all those reasons have as much in common with human rights as
throwing the dog who farted out of the room into the fresh air while everybody in the room continue to inhale fart...

Fuckin' Government...they should have waited another 10 years ...

What kind of leaders we have?
They anticipate and ACT accordingly instead of waiting for Gallop polls results...shame, shame, I wanna be ruled by Gallop!
;-))))[/b][/quote]
Nice try - actually, that's a lie, it's pretty pathetic. I didn't say a thing about Gallup. I don't want to be ruled by Gallup.

I prefer the Constitution of the United States. As you so ineptly avoided, my point was that the same folks who are assuring us that this guy is a terrorist are the ones who told us about Saddam's vast stash of weapons.

No, he's a terrorist. We know this - the governement has said so.

They would produce the proof, but they've misplaced it. It's apparently underneath the stash of Weapons of Mass Destruction that Saddam Hussein was ready to deploy on 45 minutes notice.[/b][/quote]
Right....so we are to believe they are holding him incommunicado because :

They just feel like it...

Ockham would be proud...

Point taken. But you miss mine. Bush has been saying "fuck you" to the world since he was in office. That might sound like a good John Wayne attitude at first, but that's not how the "world game" is played.

He causes people who hate us to hate us more, people who work with us to not work with us (cause he won't work with them), and people who are our allies to even back away.

He feels that cause Daddy Bush was called a wimp, he has to be a global bully. Problem is, he's trying that with American citizens now.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And faster in the hands of imbeciles.

(... I donate five cents toward a spell checker!)



Last edited by Dravyk at Dec 1 2003, 01:12 AM

pretty pathetic is your state of mind..
you don't beleive your own government and scared of it,
and I enjoy it's handy work.

:salute:

so? I do the same thing on GFY Bush does with the World.
And where are the smart GFYers now?
At Oprano...

Fuck the World....
America First
;-))))

sorry, alies, we love you, and we'll never ban you
;-0)))