KC, I have made a couple of trips to Japan, and have full intention to return as soon as time and planning permit. It is actually very weird how safe you will feel there... go to Tokyo, travel by subway (even last train of the night) without fear... wander the red light district with no real bigger fear than the endless calls of "sexy massage" and "I make special offer for you!"... it isn't as safe as it once was, but compared to ANY major american city, it is safer than you can imagine.

It actually took me about 3 days to turn down the radar - Tokyo is very crowded, but not that nasty rude "get the fuck out of my way" version, just alot of people with things to do and places to go.

I *HIGHLY* recommend it. (and I travelled ALONE, with no real understanding of the language or the country... and had a blast!)

Alex

An honest question...an honest answer....NO! HAHA (you've seen our navy...a pic was posted a couple of weeks ago....hehe)

But we do have the Great Wall of Beer Cans around the entire circumference of Canada, 100 cans deep, 1000 cans high. The plan it to get invaders wasted on Canadian beer so we can come in and steal their guns. :awinky:

In all seriousness....Canada is FAR from being able to protect itself on it's own militarily. HOWEVER, Canada also has many allies....Where others excel, we lack....and visa versa. Canada has much to offer in the way of natural resources, and even a half decent space program....we give what we can in our own way, as do our allies....that's what having friends is all about. B)

Well, yeah, the scrawny 80 pound weakling isn't going to kick sand in too many bully's faces :awinky:

[/b][/quote]
peaches!?!?!??!

woah
i'm shocked!

in answer to your question about whether we can protect ourselves ...

NO

we have more coastline that america, and a lot of pissed off muslims living on the islands around us ... our national security is under incredible threat lately ... why? because our country has chosen to support the usa in any and all military action ... our army on its own couldn't defend our own country, but we add some *very* valuable assets to yours.

could we count on you to defend us if we are attacked by the neighbours we are supporting you against? we've had this discussion and the american's intantly jumped on the case and said 'of course we would, there there australia' ... the answer is you would not defend us until our assets were at risk, then you'd jump in and help on the condition that you own or control our assets (with a nice media campaign to make it look like you are doing us a favor - and a 100 years of hearing about how you saved us from speaking another language)

if you want your country to be the 'likable leader', act like it!!! calling those who DO support you 'scrawny 80 pound weaklings' is hardly a way to win friends.

KC
>>I doubt I'll feel safer walking around the streets in Japan as a tourist than I do walking around about any US town.

Why don't you go and travel to japan first, it will give your perspective some credit.

Alex, I was scared shitless in japan!! not for my life, and i didn't feel in danger AT ALL, but i got so god damn lost i thought i would never find someone who spoke english to help me. the hotel receptionist says 'your room is on level five' and she holds up 4 fingers. i was a blithering wreck by the end of my 2 days there and haven't been back since. I'll try again when I have a travelling companion ;-)

You've hit the nail on the head right there, that *is* the difference.
N. Korea has the weapons to hit us right now, so we must approach them carefully and exhaust every last option. To do otherwise is to risk WWIII.
That's why we're not rushing in there guns blazing - we could be signing our own death warrant if we do so (especially since they have big brother China sitting just behind them).

N. Korea is still willing to talk and seemingly compromise - so until they no longer are, the talks should continue.
*Only* when all of that is exhausted should we consider anything else.

Since when are we bullying anyone?
Isn't the UN there to protect things like humanity?
Isn't the UN supposed to stand up and DO something when Hussein is bombing and gassing his OWN people?
Why isn't the UN doing something about that?
We've had 12 years of useless "please mr hussein" resolutions from the UN and NO action to get this madman out of power.
The UN draws a line in the sand with a shaky hand and apologizing the entire time. When Hussein ignores that line and boldly walks across it, the UN draws another one even further back, again complemented by apologies for having to do so. Hussein ignores it again.
12 times now.

What I want to know is why the OTHER countries in the world - like Australia - aren't standing up and demanding that something be done? Why didn't they do it 6 years ago when Hussein was still bombing and gassing his own people?
And why is it that because America *is* doing this, we're the big awful "bully"?
The UK is right beside us in this... why aren't they also being tagged with the "bully" line?

No, it's reaffirming that the person is not being attacked, but the ideas that the person is putting forth are being debated.
I like Alex, I think he's a fun guy with a headful of valueable knowledge. I don't agree with many of his political beliefs. There's a difference. Just because I don't agree with his beliefs doesn't mean I MUST hate him, that I have no other choice. That's just childish.

I honestly thought that Peaches was referring to herself in this post - *not* to any of our allies.
I know I've seen pictures of Peaches but I can't remember them... anyhow that was my take on it and if it was the wrong 'take', I stand corrected!

I was under the same impression Carrie....so you weren't alone. ;)

And here's a pic of peaches and myself last month...hehe

http://www.ladyx.com/me-peaches.jpg

She's the blonde. Now if only her eyes were open!!!

Yes, she's a wee one....lol....even wee'er than meeeeeeeee!! (it's pretty rare to find someone who's actually shorter than I am) :awinky:

[edited for my funky grammar ;) ]



Last edited by gigi at Feb 28 2003, 01:41 AM

Ummm ... before you rant about something, you ought to check the facts, Carrie. Some Australian forces have already gone to the Gulf - left in early January, if I'm not mistaken - with more on the way. There are not as many forces as the U.S. and Britain are providing - they don't have as many, and they've got far more danger on the homefront than we do, IMHO - but it is a substantial force for them.

That's with an Islamic fundamentalist terrorist group operating freely far closer than southern Mexico would be to Dallas, in an area that is in complete chaos. That's at (as I understand it) tremendous political risk to the Prime Minister - because Australian public opinion is even more closely divided than American public opinion, and the likelihood of a backlash for supporting the U.S. is great.

Whenever the U.S. has requested it, Australia has been there - in Korea, into the insanity of Vietnam, and the Gulf War. Sorry about clouding the issue with relevant facts, Carrie, but you really should have known better than this one.



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Feb 28 2003, 01:48 AM

PD - I fully realize that they've been there with their forces and the threats they deal with daily.
I'm talking about approaching the UN and screaming at the folks there that something needs to be done - like we are doing now, and being skinned alive for it.

Now I'm doubly sure she was referring to herself!
You guys look like you were having fun :okthumb:

my apologies to peaches if I read that incorrectly.
like i said, i was shocked ... so maybe that's why ;-)


carrie, go back and read the topic I was responding to before you attack me and the opinions i've stated in an open discussion. your doing exactly what this whole discussion started from ... automatically getting on your international high horse and jumping on the 'stop picking on us' defense.

your not even discussing the same subjects as I am. I don't need convincing that America is in the right for wanting to blow up iraq so have another read of the posts. ALL of them.

---
What I want to know is why the OTHER countries in the world - like Australia - aren't standing up and demanding that something be done? Why didn't they do it 6 years ago when Hussein was still bombing and gassing his own people?
---

ummmm ..... what?! nice way to piss off an australia - claim we aren't standing up and making demands. we are the only country who has declared unconditional support for you and you have the nerve to speak this sentence? looks to me like we ARE standing up and making some demands and your standing on a soapbox hoping to get a few 'jabs' in and hoping no one sees that you don't know what you are talking about. did you know that australia was victim to a terrorist attack (in bali) which lost 170 (mostly) australian lives due to our immediate and very public support of usa?


>>Just because I don't agree with his beliefs doesn't mean I MUST hate him, that I have no other choice. That's just childish.

really?
that's funny .... i could have sworn that alex and I have said the same thing in this thread! like i said, read again ....

i'll help you out
its all about what makes someone an america hater, and started with colin asking alex to justify his answer on whether he was an america hater. then the point came up that only an american can point out flaws in american politics and that foreigners would be america haters if we said the same. then a few americans came along and changed the course of the discussion by rewording everything into american english and only taking the time to read 1 or 2 posts that outraged them and then responding with a string of americanisms that had nothing to do with the original point - like you've done.

It's not just a question of "...have been there", Carrie ... they are putting their money where their mouth is and backing us now. You're saying your upset because, why, they aren't doing it loud enough?

I have no reason to think that Australia isn't backing up the U.S. at the UN - considering they have troops on the way and already there, it would be pretty peculiar if they weren't. Perhaps they aren't doing it as loud, as shrill, or as self righteously as you think appropriate - but they are there for us. I don't believe they currently hold one of the rotating seats on the Security Council, which probably explains why we aren't hearing much about that. We are concentrating our efforts on Cameroon at the moment.

The UK and Australia are taking plenty of heat about their support for our position on this. Both Blair and Howard are taking heat from within their own parties, let alone from their opposition, for their stands behind us. World opposition has focused on the U.S. - since we are spearheading the effort, that seems only appropriate. In the eyes of the world Australia and the U.K. are dancing to GW’s tune. alQaida and other such vermin have also taken note.

Gawd..I had to make a friggin pot of coffee to read this god forsaken thread. :zoinks:

Carrie, I agree totally with you.

The other day, i had to go out of town. While driving, i didn't feel like listening to music or ESPN radio. So I found a talk show on the radio.
After listening for a while. I didn't know it. But it was Rush Limbaugh. I hate that ignorant fuck. But while listening to him, before I realized who he was. Callers called in complaining the only reason we are going to war with Iraq is oil.
Hear me out and THINK about this.
Rush made a VERY clear point.
Iraq is NOT about fuckin oil. Yes, they have plenty. But if we actually wanted their oil. Its would save us BILLIONS of dollars and save thousands of lives, just lift the fuckin embargo.
Remember that embargo that the UN placed on Iraq?

Its all about bringing stablitly to the Middle East, nothing more.
Yes, it does have to do with some American interest, businesses and etc.
But this man is a total bully and has defide the UN for 12 years and his OWN people..

We have had santions on IRAQ for 12 years and the man isn't disarming like he is supposed too.
He's building up.

Since he is playing games with the UN and the rest of the world.
Since the UN doesn't wanna do anything about it.
The U.S. is gonna go in and clean up what the UN doesn't care to do.

When is enough, enough?
Sooner we get Saddam outta there. The better.

I'm like everyone else. I hate war too.
But sometimes, you just have to to bring peace for the future.

But after listening to that stupid fuck Limbaugh.
That was the first thing I ever have agree'd to anything he has said.

Saddam wants a Holy War.
We'll give that stupid fuck one.
:rokk:

*smacking head*

ooooooh right
so we should be sending our screaming forces instead of our military forces?!?!?

sorry our soldiers are risking their lives when we should have been focusing on screaming at the UN.

:headwall: :headwall: :headwall:

It's not just a question of "...have been there", Carrie ... they are putting their money where their mouth is and backing us now. You're saying your upset because, why, they aren't doing it loud enough?

I have no reason to think that Australia isn't backing up the U.S. at the UN[/b][/quote]
Good lord - if you guys are going to quote me, please do so - and stop putting words into my mouth!

I NEVER said they weren't backing us, I NEVER said they weren't doing it loudly enough.
What I asked is why, in the past 12 years, no one has approached the UN on their own and demanded that something be done.
Like we are doing now - yes, with our allies, but we're the driving force, the spearhead if you will.

Why is no one else willing to bring this issue up to the UN?

I am NOT slamming Australia...
And most of this thread has been "you're twisting our words" (I'm paraphrasing) - that's exactly what you're doing to me now.

*smacking head*

ooooooh right
so we should be sending our screaming forces instead of our military forces?!?!?

sorry our soldiers are risking their lives when we should have been focusing on screaming at the UN.

:headwall: :headwall: :headwall:[/b][/quote]
CJ both this post and the one before it in which you were responding to me are completely ignoring my point - purposefully, it seems - and reacting emotionally.
Strangely enough, reacting with a "blind patriotism" that Americans get slammed for.

Again, I am not bashing Australia. I'm not saying you haven't been there with your forces.

I am simply asking why ANYONE - including Australia - hasn't thought enough of the atrocities going on in Iraq to force this issue before now?

My guess is that you are including the US in that statement correct? The US sat on the Iraq issues for the same 12 years the rest of 'us' did.

Carrie, if your going to throw out false, insulting, sweeping statements like you did, expect it to be picked apart and thrown back at you ... you didn't exactly clarify any facts when you said it, it was just a rant based on anger at my posts.

Stop whinging that poor america has to do all the screaming. you want to be the big boy then quit complaining that the world is picking on you and take responsiblity for what you started.

CJ,

Since when do I need to travel to Japan to form an OPINION about how I think I'll feel there? Besides, you missed the whole point about Japan.

Blame the terrorist attacks in Bali on Australia's support of the USA??? That's absurd. Australia supports our fight against terrorism because TERRORISM IS WRONG.

People in this thread are getting so defensive.. I'm going to bow out and get back to work. Have fun attacking each other.. :)

and any country who did stand up would not only have to take on iraq, but usa as well ... because although usa has been dropping the ball for 12 years, heaven forbid should anyone else have a go ... and even if any other country wanted to, who is big enough to take on iraq by themselves? not even usa can do it!

USA could easliy whoop Iraq ass.

But why should we do it alone?
Its a world problem that many refuse to deal with.

I garrentee you this.
We leave iraq alone and let them continue their present course.
We ALL will have much bigger problems down the road.

Just like the Gulf War.
Isreal wans't even involved. Just friends with the US and for what I remember, Iraq sent over several Scuds at them.

I wonder what Iraq would do if they had more powerful and dangerous weapons then?

Maybe be get pissed off at ANY contry or Saddam gets a whim to go after another country and use something like VX or even nuclear bombs on our allies, just like he did with Kuwait.

Thanks, but no thanks.
twelve years is enough.
I'm tired of dealing with the man.
Just time to get rid of him.

I did not deliberately misrepresent your point - it came across to me the same way it seemed to CJ. With all due respect, your post is the one that came across as an emotional response.

But you didn't just bring up the whole "attrocity" issue, did you?

Which attrocities? The gassing of the Kurds, which the Defense Department is not convinced was actually done by Saddam - strong evidence suggests it was done by the Iranians?

Or maybe the military repression and revenge against the Kurds in the North, and the Shites in the South, who rebelled when encouraged to do so by the U.S. and were then left stranded high and dry?

In spite of the propaganda, do you really think that Saddam's record of represssion, torture and "atrocities" is that much better than many of the nations that the U.S. regards as friends and continues to aid? Egypt and Saudia Arabia leap immediately to mind.

The U.N. has fiddle-farted around while millions of Africans have been killed in at least a dozen coutries. The U.N. dilly-dallied around for a long while while hundreds of thousands, if not a million, were massacred in East Timor - a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism on the doorstep of Australia - and probably wouldn't have done much without Australian pressure, demands and leadership. The U.N. sat and watched Afganistan slip into the dark night of the Taliban without doing anything.

Why - because it is irrelevant? If it is irreleveant the U.S. plays a big role in that. Different groups of Security Council members have have blocked U.N. action on all of these issues - the United States the equal of any of them in that category. In Africa all of the Permanent Members wrung their hands, knashed their teeth, and quietly blocked action. In East Timor, if I remember correctly, Australia had to shame the U.N. into action, and had to overcome some U.S. resistance to U.N. involvement.

So you are right. No one besides the United States, apparently, has gotten up over the last twelve years and decried the very real torture and murder of hundreds of dissidents in Iraq. But in the grand scheme of things ... Iraq is a pretty small problem.

I'm all for disarming Saddam Hussein. I'm all for waging war against him for his refusal to disarm/comply with the agreements he made with the U.N. But let's keep this discussion real, shall we? This will eliminate a threat. But...

It will not stop terrorism against the United States - it will increase it. It will not stop terrorism against Israel - it will increase it. It will do NOTHING to get to and stop the people who attacked the United States on 9/11 - it will help them by greatly increasing the radicalization of a large portion of the Arab world, and serve as a marvelous recruiting tool for the likes of alQaida. It will not spread democracy movements to other countries in the area like Saudia Arabia - as I heard a man say on televsion tonight, talk of spreading Jeffersonian democracy into a country that still having discussions about whether it's appropriate to allow women to drive is a tad optomistic, don't you think? - any changes made will be superficial, and may in fact create a backlash of oppression by governments concerned with maintaining control.

I have said it before and I'll say it again - I think it's a job we need to do. I find some of the mindless pipedreams about the wonderful post-Saddam world I hear tossed irritating as hell, because it's pure fantasy.

Edited: Never mind...



Last edited by Carrie at Feb 28 2003, 03:01 AM

Apart from who said what at the UN sometime over the last 12 years let me just try and put a little perspective on Australia's place in the world for you people in North America.

We currently have a population of somwhere around 17 million - or less. Australia is less than 2 hours flying time from the worlds biggest single Muslim nation where there are over 200 million people. Indonesia's army is bigger than all our three services put together and multiplied several times over

Now you know why we tend to speak softly on matters that involve the Muslim world.

However, it doesn't mean that we are cowards. In the early days of the UN involvement in East Timor a couple of thousand poorly equipped but highly trained and dedicated Australian diggers faced down the Indonesian army.

That is something that the Indonesian nation holds against us - we made them lose face and they will try and repay that debt sometime in the next few years.

Even back in the 80's when I was in the Army we were being trained then to be prepared for when the Indonesian Army came over the hill. It's a whole lot closer now than it was then.

When it does happen I wonder if the US will stand as closely with us as we are standing with you guys right now.



Last edited by The Other Steve at Feb 28 2003, 12:04 AM

Gigi,
Unfortunately I wasn't - I DO think that the US should have done something during those 12 years, but I believe I know why we didn't...
Just after Iraq with Bush Sr., we were busy rebuilding and waiting to see if Hussein was going to get his act straight.
Then Clinton was elected - and I truly believe that's where we (America) dropped the ball. He was too damn busy kissing China's ass for 8 years and being everyone's friend to have the balls to do any follow-up work that *needed* to be done.
Now we've got Bush Jr. in office and we have to try to catch-up on that dropped ball.

So I agree - we dropped the ball - and I'm not happy about that whatsoever.
But I do think that while Clinton was busy trying to make himself the next JFK and return Washington to Camelot, the playing field was wide open for anyone else to step up and pick up the ball. I don't understand why they didn't.

I'm sure you know you can count on the US to support you. We have a Pacific fleet putting around the Pacific looking for something to do!

I knew that was coming sooner or later. :blink:

First I'm pointing my finger directly at Australia and then I'm making a sweeping statement.
Decide what it is you're accusing me of doing; switching bases like this makes for an inconsistent argument! :D

I'm not "reacting" out of anger from your posts - your posts haven't made me angry whatsoever.
They have opened up my eyes though as to how *one* mis-perceived post mentioning Australia made you react... yet you claim that we Americans are "whining" for getting attacked like that every day of the year, multiple times per day.
Just think if this entire thread were about Australians, and not Americans - would your defensive posturing also be seen as "whining"?

I'm sure you know you can count on the US to support you. We have a Pacific fleet putting around the Pacific looking for something to do![/b][/quote]
Sorry to sound negative and I don't intend to get into an arguement over it but in the past the US has tended to side with Indonesia anytime there have been problems.

Not that long before we convinced you guys that East Timor really was somewhere that human rights were being trampled we asked the US to suspend arms exports to Indonesia. We did it because we are going to be on the receiving end of all that ordinance one day.

The US did not see its way clear to stop supporting its great ally - Indonesia.

So pardon me if I'm not so sure we can rely on assistance from the US.

I guess time will tell. <shrug>

Look ... I'm still waiting to see something Alex ever posted that was "anti-American." As I pointed out in an earlier post, IMHO he's taken any number of positions that seem to me no different than a typical American liberal. Now, if you are the sort of moron who thinks that U.S. liberals are antiAmerican, then you're not worth the time it takes to talk to, so you can join Sword and quit reading now.

Hell - I spent ten years in the U.S. Navy and I get accused of being anti-American all the time, sometimes here and quite often on other boards. Why, according to "dozenchickens" I'm a pansy liberal loser who hates everything and has nothing to live for - and I'm almost as proud of that as I am of being called a communist by Torone.

There are a lot of people on the boards these days who take disagreeing with American policy as being antiAmerican. There are a lot of people on the boards these days who start hysterical shouts of antiAmericanism if you are critical of the Bush Administration. There are a lot of people on the boards these days who get their underwear tied in a knot screaming about antiAmericanism if you suggest there may not be a connection between Saddam and alQaida.

What some people seem to regard as "antiAmerican" to me seems like nothing more than debate and an alternative opinion. It ranges from intelligent to moronic.

I haven't agreed with a lot that Alex has posted - but the suggestion that he is somehow antiAmerican because of what he's posted is absurd, IMHO.



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Feb 28 2003, 03:40 AM

First I'm pointing my finger directly at Australia and then I'm making a sweeping statement.
Decide what it is you're accusing me of doing; switching bases like this makes for an inconsistent argument! :D

I'm not "reacting" out of anger from your posts - your posts haven't made me angry whatsoever.
They have opened up my eyes though as to how *one* mis-perceived post mentioning Australia made you react... yet you claim that we Americans are "whining" for getting attacked like that every day of the year, multiple times per day.
Just think if this entire thread were about Australians, and not Americans - would your defensive posturing also be seen as "whining"?[/b][/quote]
Carrie, don't come into a discussion late and attack me for my reaction to you.

you jumped on the bandwagon and proved you hadn't done any prior reading on what our discussion was about or what my posts are responding to. you are trying to make this about war on iraq or what the world hasn't done for america or whatever other crap your going on with ... go discuss that with your fellow ignorants somewhere, my perspective is wasted on you, and so is that of PD and TheOtherSteve.

They seem to have more patience left though so carrie-on ...

Now the name calling starts?

Someone is really taking this debate personally now..

American vs. The world.

i am American. i have spent most of the last 7 years in Europe and Eastern Europe. i travel. i travel a lot. i like spending a lot of time seeing new things, places, peoples and cultures.

in the last year and a 1/2 or so, i have been to:
France (several times)
Spain
England
Holland (several times)
Germany (several times)
Austria
Italy
Russia
Luxembourg
Belgium
Monaco (a couple times)
Thailand (had apartment there)
Korea

and probably others i am forgetting right now. so its not exactly like i am many Americans who dont get much past the 7-11 down the street, yet feel that they have a valid opinion about life in Rome.

American vs Europe/world and my opinion.

I have made this points on GFY many times in the recurring debate about "why do we hate you/why do they hate us/Europe vs America" debate

some factors that play a key role.

media:

media in most of the world shows far more about the US than the US shows about the world. Even Alex's beloved CTV will show a trivial story about a food poisoning incident in FrozenNipple, South Dakota as if it was right down the street from Saskatchewan. Canadian TV talks about America like it is a part of Canada or like there is no border. I remember North America being used far more often that referrences to "Canada/USA". They refer to States and cities without distinguishing between countries.

i dont think this happens in the US. if it does, it happens merely a fraction of the time it does in Canada.

this happens throughout the world from what i have seen. in Russia, 1/3rd of their news about the world is about the US. This cannot be said of other countries. For example, people in Japan are probably not continually bombarded with stories about pop stars breast implants in the Czech Republic or box office grosses of the latest film of Polands greatest director.

Nationalism:

One of the most interesting things that is very different between Europe, a lot of the world and the USA are the various forms and degrees of nationalism.

I dont mean pride, arrogance or a sense of superiority. i mean that in Europe and most of the world, people identify each other more by country/nationality. For example ALMOST ALWAYS, European news says the same things in headlines/stories. "The Italians said..." "The French decided..." "Germany is going to...." and group an entire country and culture together behind the remarks or actions of one politician. Europe in the news seems to me to often be more like competing sports teams or something.

It makes me crazy to keep reading stories that say "the americans still want..."

I am not "America"
I am not "Americans"

To most Europe and the world, George Bush = "Americans".
To me, that sucks balls.

i think this happens less in the US press. I could be wrong. but its one of the things that i am always aware of and watch because i see so much "America decides to..." rather than direct references to politicians or people. I think this happens less in American press and is one of the greater causes of a missunderstanding of how Americans perceive themselves vs. how the world perceives America. Americans see themselves as a nation deeply divided amoung political and idealogical lines with a wide range of opinions, beliefs and ideas. The rest of the world, mostly just sees "America"

Cultural perspectives, General Media Bias and political agendas.

All countries act in their own interests in the International playground of politics. People in a villiage in Dagestan may REALLY have no idea why the US or anyone is interested in what happens in Taiwan. To them, you wake up, you milk the goats, you butcher some chickens and sell some wool... all while being completely baffled by why anyone would try to assert their authority to influence the behavior of another country.

every country shows the news from its own perspective. bias is unnavoidable. everyone insists it isnt. Thats absurd and rediculous. This always spawns the typical GFY "my news is better than your news" debate. Showing a different perspective that is consistent with what may be news worthy to them, suddenly means that US news is just propoganda because they "see the real truth"

The truth is that Pakistan is probably spending less time talking about Madonnas latest hit or why Michael Jackson looks so freakish, as they are talking about all the Issues around the world that are related to the India, religion, or anything else that is important to them as a culture, people and country... and those events that may effect Pakistan and how. Whats important and relevant to people as a culture, society and country also determines what is newsworthy and determines how it is presented. Bias and different perspectives and view points cannot be avoided. Otherwise news would be a universal, boring, monotone, math formula... that is completely irrelevant to everyone.

Americans dont understand how the world perceives America

Americans really dont understand on the whole why many in the world do not like or certainly resent America. Bush in my opinion is fucking the image of America up in the world in the worst way possible.

The same words come up all the time in every arguement and conflict. The fact is, they sell well only to Americans.
"truth"
"freedom"
"justice"
"democracy"

then these words are used in a coversation about war, choosing another countries leaders, going around the UN and Security Council to attack another country. A REAL perceived war against Islam in the Islamic world. talking about the suffering of one people when politically convienent and ignoring the plight of others.

it all sells well in the US. it is apparently selling less and less in the rest of the world. Should we attack Iraq? sure, i think we should. Saddam Hussein should be shot in the head in my opinion. BUT should we send a bizarre contradictory message that we are going outside the democratic process of the UN in the interest of democracy? i dont think so. Should we be talking about attacking a country in the interest of freedom? i think thats a little contradictory.

a lot of this sells well in the US. to most who can only helplessly sit back and watch the worlds most powerful nation, most powerful military and most technologically advanced fighting force go around the UN and arguably international law, to attack a country, it doesnt.

Kyoto
Steel tarrifs
North Korea
Attack Iraq
etc etc.

The US, to the outside world looks increasinly like a runaway freight train. This is why i partially agree with the actions of and Germany, Russia, France, Beligium etc. its not about right or wrong... there is proving to be a legitimate need to keep a check on US power and global influence. It does not make attacking iraq any more right or wrong. But stabilty in the world begins with a majority opinion on the most serious of decisions - attacking another country.

inflated sense of self

every country has a different sense of self and it often varies greatly from world perception of that coutry. people talk about "American Ego" - well, i dont want to sound racist but i have spent a great deal of time around other people too. its not unique to America. America just seems to have the loudest and most frequently heard voice. RawAlex mentions Japan. I have known many Japanese who felt they were truly the worlds one, true
"Super Race". I have grown up fishing in Alaska in the Bering Sea. Many Norwegians. They too seemed to me to have a collective sense of superiority over others. Americans do too. So what? So does France. So does Germany, so do Middle Eastern countries, so do many who feel they dont receive the proper recognition for their achievements, or for religious grounds, or for the percieved greatness of their culture, history, past achievements etc. so what?

You cant say "American Ego" and refer to it as if it is some isolated phenomenon that only applies to the US. It would be hard to find a country in the world that did not have a collective sense of pride about their place of birth, their people, their history and their culture. its quite normal and expected.

Awesome post JR!!

:wnw:

No, I don't DEMAND anything. Alex doesn't want to answer the question so I've dropped it. That's fine with me.

I respect YOUR opinions, CJ. You know my opinion of you and your posts. It is public record.

You are one of the best marketing people in our business, one of the wisest in our business and one of the most intelligent in our business. I am always interested in what you have to say. I've told you that since the day I met you in both private and public. There's no way you can say I don't accept your opinions because we were born in different countries given the only things I have ever said about you or any of your posts has only been positive.

JR, i'd say that is the best post ever made on Oprano. well said
:wnw: :rokk: :wnw:



re: Americans not knowing any world news.
I'd say thats probably changing slowly with the help of the internet.
I know for myself i read a lot of world news sites, and so do others as all those sites are popular. But other than that no major new channel covers much of whats happening in the rest of the world unless its some major event. I hardly ever hear anything about Canada or Australia on the news. UK gets covered the most out of all the foreign countries. I have seen BBC news and some German news programs that i've run into while channel surfing, but those are rare. Even news from rest of the Americas hardly ever makes it on, unless again some shit happens. And you're right about Russian news, I've seen them and they do cover all types of news from the US. So as far as world news and happenings goes, i'd say most Americans are pretty ignorant in that department.

Someone mentioned Canadian Military
they had an unfortunate accident on one of their ship today..
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/02/27/iroqu...ois_crash030227


But what i really wanna know is, Do they have the ugliest warships in the world or what ??
It looks like one of those Chinese fishing boats with human cargo :)