Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

Basically a summary is that there's a couple places that put up signs saying children were welcome, but they were to use their "indoor voices" and while a cafe got a LOT of support on their move and a few angry parents, a hotel lacked support (understandably, that's a totally different atmosphere)

Boils down to "Sure kids will be kids, but don't overuse 'kids' as an excuse for bad parenting" Some of the time is okay, all of the time is not.

And the part in bold at the bottom :)

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

Muchas Grassintheass :rolleyes:

My true feelings on all of this and I will shut up and go back to whatever it is I do :blink:

Kids are kids. They aren't perfect and neither are parents. The kid comes along, there is no manual, there is basically our personal experiences and beliefs guiding our business of raising the kid. If we get them to 18 alive we have done a great job. If we get them to 18 alive and drug free we are doing an outstanding job. If we get them to 18 alive, drug free and without any children in tow we have scored the grand slam. But we all are figuring it out along the way every second of every day.

:blink:

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

That's a very good take on it.

I have to disagree with some of it though.

There's parents who try, and parents who don't. I know a few kids who got to 18 alive, by their own survival skills, not their parents (and this included food, shelter, clothing, all the 'basic essential needs' that parents are SUPPOSED to provide)

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

Wow, I can’t believe this thread is still going… ok here’s my serious take on this.

Kids are kids, this is true and parents regardless of whether they’re super mom/dad or total flakes will always have “trials” with their kids. I agree it’s down to the parent to best deal with those “trials”, how best to deal with them isn’t always the easiest thing to work out at the time. Like Sarettah said these little fuckers don’t come with a manual.

There are always going to be those “trials” that happen in public, it’s my job to make them as short lived and as quiet as possible and I do try. The flaky parents are the ones that do nothing to end the “trials” and don’t give two shits about the child or the people around them.

I’ve noticed that as my son grows and progresses his “skills” become honed and he adapts them very well to many different environments. Who said being a parent was easy… :(


It also seems that everyday my son and I jostle for the roll of Alpha male, it’s his instinct to do it and do it he must, so we battle… one day I might win and get my position back… :unsure:

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

HAHAH that was awesome... lol

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

There's a movie with Goldie Hawn in it that comes to mind... Bird on a wire?... I forget.

Anyway, at one point she has to retrieve a certain item, I think it's a stuffed animal, and it had been given to another couple's little girl, she was maybe 6 yrs old. Anyone remember this? Goldie goes over to their ritzy luxury appartment and asks for the doll or bear, whatever, and the little girl is reluctant to give it up.

The parents start doing the "talking to her like she's an adult" thing.....
"Well, honey, sometimes we have to be big about things"
"So.. can you give the bear up?"
etc etc
The girl becomes selfish and bratty, and the "reasoning" from the parents goes on and on..... until finally Goldie get's miffed and says "Oh for GAWD SAKES (steps forward and grabs the damned bear) who's in CHARGE here?" and she leaves... the parents standing there looking stunned.

That's the question with some so-called parents.... who the hell is in charge? Also, some parents nowadays do this thing where they become "friends" with their kid, like buddies, pals..... I'll tell you this much, when I was a kid there was no doubt whatsoever who was in charge, and every one of us kids (5 in all) continue to this day to have respect and love for our mom and dad. One reason is that we got damn well disciplined when we needed/deserved it.

Not abuse. Discipline. Real discipline, not this "time out" shit.

Do I sound angry? You bet I'm angry.... when I see more and more young kids out there cocking off at adults instead of listening to them... I've seen kids threaten their parents with things as "I'm gunna report you for abuse" when they don't get their own way (yes, I have actually seen this unfold right in front of me)...and is it me or does it seem like there are more and more young people doing wanton destruction of property, stealling cars, etc, over the last 15 years or so?

Anyway, in reading back over this thread I can see that this is a huge issue and a big rant for many, and the most frustrating part of it is that there is no definitive solution to it. On one hand the notion of having mandatory parental training before people are allowed to concieve is kind of attractive for certain reasons... I mean really, you have to obtain a license and take training to drive a car, legally own a gun, etc, yet no formal training to take on the role of parent, the most important role in the world.

On the other hand, to start regulating such basic human functions seems rather Orwelian..... thus the dilema. What's the answer? Maybe it's time to bring back the spanking into fashion? Seems to me a good sound spanking was something I got as a kid when I acted up too badly, and so it was with a lot of people I know. Gee, come to think of it we even watched unedited Bugs Bunny cartoons (the horror!), and we all turned out pretty well. I've certainly never ran around like a hellion in a restaruant ever, I've never stolen a car or ran a key down the side of someone's new SUV.

In closing I'd like to say that I don't believe that a lack of discipline is the only contributing factor to the problem. I believe that more parents have to also be good role models for their kids. It is the combination of proper discipline and setting a good example that it seems a lot of people have forgotten out there.

Cheers.

And Trev, no worries. :okthumb:

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

If you have to get physical with a child over the age of four, you're a piss-poor parent.

If you have to get physical with a child over the age of eight, you've fucked the kid up, possibly beyond repair.

How many kids do you have, CD?

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

CD...that was an excellent post and earned you points! :okthumb:

One of my favorite compliments came from one of my daughters. She said "you know one of the reasons I love you?" I said "what?" She said "because you're the only 'Mom' who dresses and acts like a 'Mom.'" She went on to explain about some other kid's mothers and how they dressed like their daughters and behaved like them, too. :blink:

Children *need* discipline in order to function. Life is hard enough. You have to know what the rules are. Study after study after study has proclaimed loudly that kids freak out if they don't have boundaries. They need them to feel safe.

I despise people who treat children like "short adults." They aren't "short adults," they're CHILDREN. Their brains function differently. The ability to understand and cope with "delayed gratification" doesn't even start firing in the brain until they're approaching or in their teens.

I really wish I could have seen the facial expression I have that caused my children to freeze and do a mental rewind on the last five minutes of their life to search for whatever grievious error they had just committed. (It was fun to watch them do that.) They'd find it and apologize. Sometimes it was a small thing, like forgetting to say "please" or "thank you." Sometimes it was a bigger thing like "having a tone" when they spoke to their parents.

There's no simple solutions to problems like this, CD. Schools have classes that do things like the "sack of flour" project. (Sometimes it's an egg.) My kids did it with a five pound sack of flour. They were told that was an infant and to carry it around and care for it as if it were an infant, to teach them about the responsibilities of parenthood. (I babysat the sacks of flour for them.) Some kids took it deadly seriously, some kids didn't. They thought it was a big joke. Those kids are going to grow up to be real parents someday and it's a scary thought.

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

I definitely agree, but I would have dropped the age to two. I held on to the arm of a two year old and spanked her when she ran out in front of a car in a parking lot. Thanks to a driver with quick reflexes and good brakes, nothing happened...other than the two adults involved nearly having heart attacks. I wanted to make a very clear impression that this behavior would NOT be tolerated. I made a rule that while I hauled her infant sister out of *her* car seat, the two year old was to stand with one hand on the car and *never* take the hand off until I told her to.

The inherent problem with spanking is that it's too damned easy to fall back on. You start out with "I'm only going to spank for really big things that could harm them if they did it" then find yourself drifting into spanking for things that are better handled another way. I found myself doing that, and stopped spanking altogether.

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

I've had plenty of experience with child care over the past 30 years, but do not have kids of my own, no. Should I then not have a right to an opinion? I know what I would and wouldn't do with my own kids, and I'm experienced enough with child care to be able to express an informed opinion.

And I hear what you're saying, but I simply can't agree with you. It would be nice if every child learned to behave before the age of 4 or 8 and never needed another spanking, but I've noticed that that's rarely the case.

You having a kid yourself doesn't instantly make you an expert on parenting PD. If it did then that would apply to everyone who is a parent out there, and as should be patently obvious by now there are a lot of idiot parents who are far from "experts"

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

If you can drop the spanking all together and have your kids turn out fine then that's definitely the way to go, so agreed in full.

It's such a tough issue though, with so many different scenarios in so many different families, it is impossible to say what the one right way is for all. I'm just saying that I have noticed some changes with kids in general over the years, much of them negative.

I've noticed that people have taken away the teacher and principal's perogative to administer discipline, for example. Then, other people sit there and wonder why certain aweful things happen to their kids at school from other kids and why there is no discipline. It's incredible some of the things that go on, and you hear people say "Well, where are the parents?" more an more these days.

Anyone seen the movie "Thirteen"? Watch it, and then tell me that kind of shit doesn't happen in real life.

Morgan you seem like you're a very good mother and role model. Kudos.

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

Look, I'm an old hippie. The activist/comedian Dick Gregory used to say "There are no illegitimate children, but there are plenty of illegitimate parents running around." That designation can apply to a lot more than marital status.

Between my father, my mother, and my stepmother I had excellent parenting role models. As long as I figured out what they would have done in any given situation and then did the exact opposite, I did fine.

My experience (both as a parent and grandparent) and observation tells me that corporal punishment is one of the least effective child discipline practices. I go beyond considering spanking as an "easy way"; it's a lazy way. Parenting takes work. Dealing with problems, including discipline problems, takes hard work.

I have no illusions that becoming a parent makes one qualified to raise children. That being said, if your attitude toward proper child rearing techniques doesn't change once you have one of the little critters, you are a damned fool.

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

CDSmith the example of the Goldie Hawn movie and the parents talking to her like she was an adult and the line "Well, honey, sometimes we have to be big about things" -- Even if it isn't word for word the way it was in the movie, that's not talking to a kid like an adult. That's still talking to them in a rather patronizing manner (I know I picked up on it when I was a kid, when a parent talked TO me vs when a parent talked AT me).

I also don't think that you can put an age restriction on when spanking either should or shouldn't be used, kids are learning well past the age of 4, for example I got a spanking when I was in 3rd grade because I was playing on the playground and there was a little boy who gave me the finger pretty much every day. I had no idea what it meant... it meant nothing to me, but I figured it must be an insult of some kind, so one night when my dad wouldn't give me something I wanted, I gave him the finger. And yes, I got a spanking. And no, I'm not screwed up for life. I totally deserved it. I laugh about it now because its actually a rather fond memory, despite the spanking.

Some kids are going to need harsher discipline (I was one of them, I was spanked as a child and as an adult I am fully aware that I was in complete deservence of each & every one of them. Didn't happen often, but they worked). I also got my mouth washed out with soap once when I was in something like Grade 6 for using racist terms to insult my sister. That was also well deserved. I didn't die, I'm not traumatized for life from it, I called her a "dirty indian" and the irony is that I am half native myself. I deserved that too. Once again, effective.

Sometimes kids screaming in stores can be useful... I'll use myself as an example again; when I was about 2 or 3 yrs old my mom couldn't find my dad in a huge department store down in the states (we'd gone down there to visit his cousin) and we'd been looking for a while, so finally she asked me to call for him. (I had/have quite a set of lungs on me) So I did. Loudly. At the top of my lungs, I screamed DAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDDDDDYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure these days something like that would have security trying to arrest my mom for child abduction or something,... a shame, because it too was effective lol. Didn't take my dad long at all to come running.

The whole ...concept of "bad" parents has really bothered me since about 4 yrs ago when I was housemother to a bunch of troubled kids. One of these kids lived on the street, under a bush, by the mall. When the weather got too cold, or when he got too hungry, or if it was raining, or whatever... he was welcome to stay with us. One day he came grocery shopping with me & my "son" (who is all of 3 yrs younger than me but still phones me on Mother's Day) ...and we ran into this first kid's real mom. She stopped us in the aisle of the grocery store, and right in front of him informed me that I should not talk to him, or associate with him in any way, that he was no good, would lie to me, steal from me, that he would never amount to anything in life, on & on & on. I was appalled, to be quite honest. I also have very little doubt in my mind that SHE is a large part of the reason he treats her the way he does. By the time I knew him it was ...a little too late and he did end up going to jail. He never lied to me, or stole from me, or broke anything, I didn't have to drill rules into his head about "When you're under my roof you will...." --He simply knew. He knew without being told that it was my house, my things, and that he was priviledged to be there & should behave accordingly. He got out of jail, got a job, last time I saw him he was working & living on his own & doing great.

Sidenote: I need a mental break --looked over to my left and holy crap that's a LOT of Xbox controllers... LOL Seven... wow.

Another girl I know who is will be 16 in spring, was I suppose what we'd call a latchkey kid. I suppose come to think of it she still is. When I met her she had just turned 11 and she took care of getting her own dinner, her own breakfast, her own lunch, getting to school, getting home from school, doing the house chores, etc etc. She was the daughter of my landlady who later didn't bother to take care of her bills and the bank repossessed the house & we all had to move. Then she was my roommate (horrible mistake lol) --There would be HUGE fights when this woman would decide one morning that she was going to play "mom" and "take charge." This girl would not & still does not listen to a damn thing her mother says. And why should she? I could get her to do chores no problem, I'd say "I'm going to wash the dishes, can you dry them please?" and she'd do it. Biggest difference I noticed between her mother's tactics & mine was her mom would tell & I would ask. That was quite a few years ago, shortly after I moved out her mom was diagnosed with lung cancer, quit her job, went on welfare, and is now apparently addicted to Meth. She also kicked her daughter out of the house & the girl is now living with her boyfriend & his family. I'm pretty confident she'll be fine for the most part, she's got a good head on her shoulders & she knows how to reach me.

My "son" was kicked out his dad's house, his mom had left him when he was quite a bit younger, but she let him crash on her couch. Instead of bothering to do anything to accommodate him he was treated pretty much like an unwelcome guest. When I got back from Australia we saw him in town & invited him in & he didn't leave for 8 months... We fed him, clothed him, sheltered him, took him to the hospital twice (His mom never showed up for either trip even though the hospital phoned her both times) ...I made him phone her regularly too so she knew where he was, but after a while gave up because it was obvious she was just happy he wasn't her "burden" anymore.

Enough story telling, my point is that kids are rarely the problem & it isnt' the kids that I have the problem with. I'm not going to give nasty looks at parents in stores who have kids throwing fits, but the woman with the infant that was only a few months old, who was more concerned with her christmas shopping than her baby, pissed me off.

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

Wow what a long thread with long posts! Possibly a record.

Anyhow, I think it all comes down to ...

Kids!
I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!
Kids!
Who can understand anything they say?
Kids!
They a disobedient, disrespectful oafs!
Noisy, crazy, dirty, lazy, loafers!
While we're on the subject:
Kids!
You can talk and talk till your face is blue!
Kids!
But they still just do what they want to do!
Why can't they be like we were,
Perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids today?
Kids!
I've tried to raise him the best I could
Kids! Kids!
Laughing, singing, dancing, grinning, morons!
And while we're on the subject!
Kids! They are just impossible to control!
Kids! With their awful clothes and their rock an' roll!
Why can't they dance like we did
What's wrong with Sammy Caine?
What's the matter with kids today!

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

I spanked my youngest stepdaughter once. I should probably preface this by saying when I married my ex he was a widower with 2 girls ages 5 and 9. At the time of this incident I had been a mom for about 2 months.
My ex husband and I had bought this fantastic oak dining room set at an auction and spent days stripping paint and refinishing it. 2 days after it's dry I wake up to a 5 year old sawing away at the table with a steak knife.

I grabbed the knife and gave her a few whacks on the bottom. Her ass turned bright red and I felt so guilty I never spanked her again.

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

Although I agree with several of your points and applaud a few of the other comments you made, your last comment leads me to suspect you of being the fool, actually. Why? Because you obviously missed the whole point I put forth that 1) there is no "one right way or answer" for all parents or to this issue, and 2) in reading back on my earlier posts it is pretty clear to me that I said "sometimes" "some kids" could use a spanking.... not always, not all... but some. This suggests that I meant it to be only a part of disciplinary measures, only part of parenting, as in not the whole of it. A part.

As in there are other parts to the equation.

Comprende?

Spanking is not always the lazy way. Sometimes it is the necessary way. Don't like it? Fine, if your little darlings turn out perfectly wonderful more power to you. Not everyone is the same as you sir. Fact is, in general, kids out there have LESS respect for adults, less respect for authority and less regard for private property than ever before, and there has to be a reason for it. One fact that could be a contributor is that in the home and in schools there is far LESS real punishment/consequences than there was 25+ years ago. Is that the only reason? Probably not, but it appears to be an obvious one.

You are absolutely right though about it taking hard work. And commitment, and consitency and 100 other things. Many about-to-be's have no idea what they're in for.

You know, another thing that is "the easy way out" that a lot of parents take is putting their kids in the other room in front of the TV or video game and keeping them occupied day after day that way. Then there are the kids who have a computer, full stereo, and their own phone line right in their bedroom. Sending them to their room sure sounds like punishment, or a vacation. Times have sure changed since I was a kid, in that regard.

Agree, don't agree, whatever... but it would be nice for once to come to a board and be able to have a good heated discussion without having the name-calling "fool" BS going on. Wouldn't it?

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

I apologize, I obviously described the scene badly, but it has been a long time since I saw it. You would have to watch the movie and see for yourself to know what I mean.... those parents were talking to the kid as if the kid was in charge, not them. They were basically asking (begging) the kid to be reasonable.

It was quite a good scene actuallly. Very telling of the times.

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

Spanking?

First time I had to discipline my twins was over this past summer. I used the same tactic my grandmother did to me. Slap their hands with a ruler. I didn't have a ruler, so I used a back scratcher.

After that was done, I put them in the corner for a timeout, or so they thought. I had them hold up two dvd's from blockbuster shoulder high for 10 minutes. They didn't make the 10 minutes. Once they couldn't do that, they did a jar of my creatine each for another 5. Once they couldn't do that, they stood in the corner for 4 hours.

I didn't have one peep out of them the rest of our vacation.

Children need to be shown the boundaries.

My kids are my world, but I'll be damned if I let them grow up to be disrespectful bastards.

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

CD - I was not calling you a fool personally. You don't have kids, so you can't know how your attitude toward child rearing will change when you do. You strike me as an intelligent person, so I'd be quite suprised if your attitudes didn't.

As far as the rest of it goes Ah, the old man rant.

I don't buy it. If you check literature from at least the time it switched from stone carvings to papyrus, you will find the same lament. From personal experience, I have heard my own father say it about my generation, his mother reminding him that she and grandpa said the same thing about his generation - and have now heard my own daughter make a similar grumble about her son.

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

I agree with you in part that there is a difference between raising your own kids and having years of experience with the kids of others, etc. Although not directly my own, my family does have plenty of kids, thus I have numerous neices and nephews, even a small flock of great-nieces and nephews. I have had a small hand in looking after them to the tune of many years. I was also in the Big Brothers of Canada organization for several years back in the mid-to-late 80's.

And I have eyes and ears... and they all work. :)

Drawing from my own childhood experience I just know that I was raised a certain way, and I know that were I to have kids of my own I would raise them in that same spirit, because I truly was blessed with two great caring parents who did not put up with a lot of shit from us and weren't afraid to draw the line, yet were nonetheless loving and set good examples.

I should add here about corporal punishment that it was rarely the first punishment us kids received. Often you'd be told several times to behave, and even sent to your room on occasion.... but some behavior warrants more sever consequences, especially repetitive and utter defiantly bad behavior, and for that we got spanked. Believe me, we didn't like it.

Do any of us kids now harbor an ill will towards our parents? Not a chance. In my adult years I have thanked my parents for caring enough to swat my bratty ass, which brings me to your second point....

Things just seem a bit different now that there is no meaningful punishment allowed in schools, and with so many single parents out there, AND with so many parents out there letting their kids run rampant.

What about 12 and 13 yr old girls getting piercings and tats, WTF is up with that?

You can't deny that teen car thefts aren't way up compared to what it was 20 years ago. I hear this confirmed on the news often here, have even had a few attempts made at my own vehicle in recent years. Some kids were caught taking a hammer to my bike lock a few years back, a 15 yr old and a 16 yr old... and yeah, like a disgruntled old fucker I get a bit peeved and ask out loud "Where are the fucking parents?" and yes it does occur to me that there are a lot of kids out there being raised with no fear of reprisals, no fear or respect at all when an adult tells them that what they are doing is wrong, and these kids are growing up to be utter jerks.

Again, not all... but a lot. Were there jerks back when I was a kid? Of course there were. Just not this many, and.... listen up... when an adult came by and yelled at a kid for doing something stupid, back then the kid would normally be afraid of reprisals and would listen to the adult, because you did not want a spanking and you did not want your dad to spank you for it either. Nowadays more often than not you have kids.... even little kids.... telling an adult to "fuck off asshole, you can't touch me fuckface".... because they know that one call to CFS or word to a teacher or counselor and that adult is under investigation for child abuse or even arrested.

It wasn't like that 20 - 30 - 40 years ago.


Look man, I am not sitting here trying to tell you or anyone you're doing it all wrong do it this way. I am simply stating there is a problem, a large one in fact, maybe not with your kids but with a lot of other kids and a lot of parents and in the system. That's all. I understand we won't all see eye to eye about how to raise our children, I would never presume to expect that. But what we can do is at least admit that problems exist in society with respect to this issue, and talk about what might be causing the problems and throw out some thoughts towards finding solutions.

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

...unless of course this moment happens to be in a store, restaurant, or other public place. Then, according to thread consensus, the child should be appeased as soon as possible in order not to disturb the other patrons. :huh:

Sin, move that "infant" mark up a bit. It's not just 6mo or less... 1 1/2 yr olds have wants and needs too that don't have a thing to do with materialism (gimme gimme I waaaaaant that).
OTOH, it's not always possible to make sure the kid is completely fed, well-rested, and in a good mood before having to go to the store to get groceries. Unfortunately these moments are more rare than not and we don't live in Utopia. Taking a moment to soothe a baby is nothing, though... the next time this happens, step up to the baby and start interacting with him/her and making comments like "awww, are you tired sweetie?". No better way to get a parent's attention; plus you might find out that said child was sound asleep just 3 minutes ago, usually sleeps straight through for another hour, but someone made a loud bang near the cart and woke the poor kid up (who has now realized he's not in his usual sleeping spot and is NOT happy about it) but he should fall back asleep in another minute or two after having an opportunity to let the world know he's not happy about not being in his own bed...

It's not always what it seems, especially when there's kids involved.

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

Pre-kid I called them "small, stupid humans". I hated them. They were loud, dirty, misbehaving annoyances. Always making a disturbance, always being a problem.

Now it's MUCH different. I'm about as pro-kid as you can get. I can tell the difference in a kid that's acting up on purpose and a kid that's just overstimulated with a single glance or a few seconds of hearing them. No matter where I am, a kid cries or yells "mom" and I'm turning around automatically to help, even if all of mine are right in front of me. I know what it's like to have been there, done that, and my sympathy for other parents extends much further.

15 years ago I used to be a glarer. Now I'm a sympathetic smiler, and someone who will stop and interact with the kid (distraction works wonders). Boy how things have changed since having my own.

There's a great mass email out there floating around about a mom who used to be childless and think parents were sooo stupid for things like having a kid with two mismatched socks, a tank top when it's snowing outside, and they're in the grocery store stuffing their face full of a chocolate bar; and now that she's had kids she realizes that those are the kid's favorite socks and she refuses to take them off, there was already a half-hour battle to get ready to leave when the kid suddenly appears wearing that tank top instead of the sweatshirt he had been wearing and it'll be another half-hour battle to get him to change back, and kids' appetites sometimes strike without warning and it's better to give them a candy bar now and let them eat dinner a little later than have them screaming and wailing the whole time you're in the store. Wish I had it handy, it's perfect for this thread.

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

Spanking kids??

The last time one got "spanked" ( ie a swift slap on the ass) was my eldest son on the way back from a restaurant for being a total cunt to Anthony.

Thought he could get away with it too as we were walking down a street.

He was wrong

He's never done anything like that since.

That must be 3 yrs ago.

I taught my kids early on that good manners cost absolutely nothing.

:)

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

Oh yeah, public humiliation tends to stick in one's mind. :)

My twins also have heard that saying, "Good manners cost nothing".

Might bring them up next summer actually. It's an idea.

Re: I cannot stand some people...
 

We have the room! :)