One must put this in perspective. How many mass horrors did Stalin bring on his own people? (before, during and after WWII ) What about the countries that fell into the USSR's zone of influence after WWII?

Stalin killed more Russians then Hitler did. [/b][/quote]
very good retort in the style of Fox TV I had the misfortune to watch in Granada, Spain....
Instead of answering the opponent legitimate questions, Fox TV and you Michael, redirect the issue. Won't work on me, I've seen better execution by Communist Party propaganda machine and their typical MO was ABSOLUTELLY the same-
"It's not bad in USSR, because the exploited masses of capitalist countries suffer more and more exploited by their capitalist masters"


Have more ammo up your sleeve, something I haven't seen before on Fox or Communism? Surprise me, ambush me with NEW debate tactics and I'll capitulate...beaten to the pulp.

BTW, I'll entertain your non sequitor-
Stalin and Hitler killed the SAME numbers of Russians, 20 mils each.

Could it be they are anti him because he is a twat?

Serge, I was merely pointing out that Stalin killed more Russians then Hitler.

Both Hitler and Stalin were bad.

FDR and Churchill were wrong for making a deal with Stalin to turn over "liberated Eastern Europe" to the USSR.

It is ironic that the British ( Churchill) went to war with Germany when Hilter invaded Poland. Yet a few years later, the allies were willing to turn over Poland to the same fate from another totalitarian dictator. Even more ironic is that Hitler and Stalin had agreed to divide Poland in the first place!!

Serge, have you seen the latest version of Machurian Candidate? I think your some of the reminants of brainwashing from the same regime Stalin built is starting to show.

Heck you still have come to grips that Russian pilots were flying against US pilots in the Korean war - even after I sent you a bunch of links from Google and Yahoo. ( I know they are 2 capitalist pig companies who spray out nothing but propaganda)

:lol: :lol:

Well that makes Stalin OK then!

:okthumb:

Could it be they are anti him because he is a twat? [/b][/quote]


Wow, what keen thinking - that thought never came to my mind.

The same group did the same with Reagan too.

The mainstream media is never wrong. Ask Dan Rather.

which has the SAME relevance to the discussion at hand as the number condoms sold in Malaysia in 1976... - NON SEQUITOR!

Lambskins condoms do not protect one from AIDS - another non sequitor.

another shot and NON SEQUITOR which missed the mark...KGB headquarters in St Petersburg, has my dossier, listing my anti-soviet activities, as was reported by Palestinians living with me in the student hostel. I have veryfyable record of my anti soviet activities...care to compare MY RECORD and yours? Talk is cheap, Michael.

not really...I was presented with "evidence" in the form of the clips from History Channel and took them for what they worth, true or false I have bought it.
Because...I am older, and my EARS are better developed with age than my mouth. Children cry from the moment they get born, LISTENING and understanding one;s opponent takes practise. You'll get there one day for your own sake
:)

Wow, what keen thinking - that thought never came to my mind.

The same group did the same with Reagan too.

The mainstream media is never wrong. Ask Dan Rather. [/b][/quote]
Reagan?

You mean the guy who was diagnosed as senile during the last 9mths of his Presidency?

which has the SAME relevance to the discussion at hand as the number condoms sold in Malaysia in 1976... - NON SEQUITOR!

Lambskins condoms do not protect one from AIDS - another non sequitor.

another shot and NON SEQUITOR which missed the mark...KGB headquarters in St Petersburg, has my dossier, listing my anti-soviet activities, as was reported by Palestinians living with me in the student hostel. I have veryfyable record of my anti soviet activities...care to compare MY RECORD and yours? Talk is cheap, Michael.

not really...I was presented with "evidence" in the form of the clips from History Channel and took them for what they worth, true or false I have bought it.
Because...I am older, and my EARS are better developed with age than my mouth. Children cry from the moment they get born, LISTENING and understanding one;s opponent takes practise. You'll get there one day for your own sake
:) [/b][/quote]


Serge, you are learning well.

When you cannot win a debate on the merits, change the topic.

I am sure no one even recognized it.

Very SMOOOOOOOOOTH!

:lol:

Nick, now you compiling history....don't get "Foxized",
it's a non winner in the argument.

Serge, in referance to your anti-USSR activities that are documented. That is interesting.

Could it be that this is just a ruse, and it was just planted by the KGB to make you appear to be a strient anti-Communist?

The KGB, and USSR were pretty sneaky - heck Putin has the world thinking he is not a communist!!

With your latest arguements, I think the "evidence" could be manufactured. Just like the evidence from Google on the soviet pilots who flew against Americans in Korea.

very good attempt to project, but once again it failed. I was on the topic, you brought non sequitors, I pointed it out and you abandoned the topic.

Good try, but won't work on me as the previous attempts haven't worked.

Care to get back to the topic at hand and drop all the non sequitors?

Reagan?

You mean the guy who was diagnosed as senile during the last 9mths of his Presidency? [/b][/quote]

That is him - remember his funeral last year?

:lol:

another good try -
if you can't produce the RECORD of your own -
put mine in doubt.


Yes, it was manufactured by KGB for the sole of me impressing you on Oprano.
You got me!
:)

Now...can you master ONE debate technique I haven't seen in Communist Russia before?
I don't ask for much....or do I?

That is him - remember his funeral last year?

:lol: [/b][/quote]
Wasn't he the guy that was senile for his last 9 mths as King Penguin of Moriava?

Nick, you see how easy it is to be dragged into gutter by bringing items which has NOTHING to do with the topic? Do you really beleive ALL your references to Reagan has ANYTHING to do with topic at hand?

I Love it when Serge gets inspired....

This is making for a great day... :okthumb:

Life is so much simpler when the world is flat ...

Mike - it's not as if Churchill and Roosevelt had a whole lot of choice. They didn't GIVE him Poland - his armies took it, and I don't think we had enough military power to take it back from them.

They (Roosevelt and Churchill) also still had that little scrap going on in the Pacific, which Stalin had sat out.

Roosevelt, let alone Truman, could not have gotten political support from anyone in either party for continuing or resuming a war against the Soviet Union. Hell's bells, even Mr. Republican himself (Taft) was opposed to most of the efforts Truman undertook in the early days of the "Cold War."

PD, Michael meant Czechoslovakia and Chamberlain's pronouncement to the British Parliament:
"I brought you Peace" after he assured Hitler that he can take it.

He is busy researching Soviet pilots in Korea and got confused a bit with Chamberlain due to the preasure I put on him
:)

Sorry , allow me to return to topic.

Some facts.... (I know how MikeAI hates them )

UK Attorney General , Lord Goldsmith ,Advises Blair of the possible illegality of invading Iraq.

"""36. Finally, I must stress that the lawfulness of military action depends not only on the existence of a legal basis, but also on the question of proportionality. Any force used pursuant to the authorisation in resolution 678 (whether or not there is a second resolution):


must have as its objective the enforcement the terms of the cease-fire contained in resolution 687 (1990) and subsequent relevant resolutions;
be limited to what is necessary to achieve that objective; and
must be a proportionate response to that objective, ie securing compliance with Iraq's disarmament obligations.
That is not to say that action may not be taken to remove Saddam Hussein from power if it can be demonstrated that such action is a necessary and proportionate measure to secure the disarmament of Iraq. But regime change cannot be the objective of military action. This should be borne in mind in considering the list of military targets and in making public statements about any campaign.

(signed) ATTORNEY GENERAL 7 March 2003 """"


In hindsight the US/UK conducted the invasion in a manner in which in the opinion of the British Attorney General was illegal.

you betcha,
today is my
"go get 'em all" day
;)

http://www.winetalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1300

P.S. Michael and me have a pent up demand,
even before we have left for Spain, we signed the Boca Accord-
no political discussions on the trip!
;)

The iraq war was stupid - it could have been solved by a simple headshot at Saddam :snipe: :papow: however somehow politicians and dictators have ruled good old assassinations out off modern warfare (probably because they know they would be next ;-)))

But since we couldn´t just kill Saddam and his close associates, then we had to invade... was it justifiable? Thinking on how much damage Saddam had done, then YES it was justifiable! - thinking on the 1000s of dead iraqies and western, then no it was not justifiable... bottomline I think assassinations could solve alot of problems in this world :ph34r:

fallacy...they NEVER solved anything...ever.

fallacy...they NEVER solved anything...ever. [/b][/quote]
They solve isolated problems - ex. Saddam dead, then we got a new situation with another possible solution... However you are right, that in the end all solutions only leads to new problems - this is the curse or gift of mankind :unsure:

Nick - laws are created by men, to be re-inturperted by other men, and then broken when convinient. Why isn't Tony Blair in jail with Saddam?

Serge, I was talking about Poland - that is when England declared war on Germany. Of course the Germans assumed the British would back down just like they did with Czechoslovakia.

PD you have points, they were in a tough posistion - I just found it ironic what started the war, did not get solved until the lates 1980s. Though the US did have a monopoly on nuclear weapons at the time, so defeating the Russians - at least booting them out of Eastern Europe was feasable.

Funny how group think is starting to effect Oprano.... even on politics.

Serge, I remember when you used to actually be Conservative.... now you are becoming another boring, typical liberal. It is ok, I know you will come back to right thinking. You change posistions every few years.... that is the one thing you are consistent on!

:okthumb:

assumed...Britan GAVE Czeckoslovakia away, assuring Hitler that they will do nothing.

Do you have any evidence giving the credibility to your asumption about German assumption?

I say Germany was looking forward to the war with England, and got when they wanted when they atacked Poland.

Me boring? Your have a lot to learn from Tom G from Winetalk.
He arguments his points better, more presize, executes better, has better oratorial skills, avoids using labels on his opponents. We learn somethinjg from each other and I am looking forward to the day I can learn something from you
:)

As for me changing my views of the world...sorry, I don't watch the same TV station, my mind is not influenced by "ANALysts" from neither left nor the right, neither in politics, nor the stock market and PERSONAL expereince is a good foundation for the views...beats FOX "ANALysts", CBC "ANALysts" ...being a "doer" since the age of 15 rather than "watcher" gives one more credible ammunition in life.

:nyanya:

Me boring? Your have a lot to learn from Tom G from Winetalk.
He arguments his points better, more presize, executes better, has better oratorial skills, avoids using labels on his opponents. We learn somethinjg from each other and I am looking forward to the day I can learn something from you
:)

As for me changing my views of the world...sorry, I don't watch the same TV station, my mind is not influenced by "ANALysts" from neither left nor the right, neither in politics, nor the stock market and PERSONAL expereince is a good foundation for the views...beats FOX "ANALysts", CBC "ANALysts" ...being a "doer" since the age of 15 rather than "watcher" gives one more credible ammunition in life.

:nyanya: [/b][/quote]


Serge - I understand you are a doer.... I am but a mere lazy, ignorant, uneducated, barely successful cad, who cannot live up to his father's debating skills. Gosh I guess anytime my bubble will bust, and I will be forced to live on my parents porch again....



:lol:


One day Serge, I hope to be as big of a DOER as YOU think YOU are! Imagine what I could accomplish if I actually applied myself??

The estimates of the number of Americans who would die were an invasion of the Japanese home islands were more than a million. The numbers resulting from an offensive against the Soviets would have dwarfed that, even given the advantage presented by nuclear weapons.

There are more than enough ironies surrounding World War II to go around. If the Japanese had invaded Russia when or shortly after Hitler did, the whole war would have been different. If the Japanese had gone after American shipping destined for Russia before or after Pearl Harbor, some of the offensives launched by Russia would have been delayed.

If the Isolationists (the niave who believed that we could avoid the war, the cynical Nazi/Facist sympathizers of America First and other organizations, traitors like Lindbergh) had not prevented Roosevelt from preparing for the inevitable, the United States might have been an effective player in the war before 1943.

if you applied yourself,
you'd stop being a faithful Fox TV viewr and become an INDEPENDENT thinker,
isn't it obvious!?

..and I doubt you'd be able to achive what I have achieved...I brought USSR to the end,
short 6 years after I left it just collapsed, couldn't do it without me
:)

Beat that, Michael
:)

What is the difference between a boring, typical liberal and a boring, typical conservative?

I'd venture to say that the boring Liberal repeats everything he/she have heard in the Liberal Media,
boring Conservative repeats everything he/she have heard in Conservative Media.

I enjoy debates with Michaels' father, they are more based on personal experiences than on "they said, I'll repeat"...which pisses Michael off
:)

if you applied yourself,
you'd stop being a faithful Fox TV viewr and become an INDEPENDENT thinker,
isn't it obvious!?

..and I doubt you'd be able to achive what I have achieved...I brought USSR to the end,
short 6 years after I left it just collapsed, couldn't do it without me
:)

Beat that, Michael
:) [/b][/quote]


Serge, your assumptions are pretty damn amusing with my TV habits. Maybe the Neilsons have been spending way to much time tracing peoples viewing habits, they should just call "Know it all Serge".

Take your time and read this - it was on Fox, according to your ignorant rants above, this type of analysis would never be on Fox: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157960,00.html

Serge, I figured by now you know what ASSUMING gets you.

I am sure you are comfortable knowing that PD, JoeSho, both Nicks, agree with you 100%.... I am comfortable with them dissagreeing with me 100%.

Reagan?

You mean the guy who was diagnosed as senile during the last 9mths of his Presidency? [/b][/quote]
i thought he was senile since that show with the monkey. or was that his presidency and his wife they meant.

i lived the in the US for a few years. I have a good understanding of it. If you think the media is liberal bised, that means you start your political spectrum somewhere to the right of reagan.

why has there been no truth on 9-11 yet, with the air force stand down....what the fuck is that about? 9-11 widows trying to find the truth about why their husband are dead...being shut down by congress. Don't you wonder why, or is it easy to be blinkered.....if you prefer blinkers I have a saddle and can run you in the 2.20 at newmarket.

i lived the in the US for a few years. I have a good understanding of it. If you think the media is liberal bised, that means you start your political spectrum somewhere to the right of reagan.

why has there been no truth on 9-11 yet, with the air force stand down....what the fuck is that about? 9-11 widows trying to find the truth about why their husband are dead...being shut down by congress. Don't you wonder why, or is it easy to be blinkered.....if you prefer blinkers I have a saddle and can run you in the 2.20 at newmarket. [/b][/quote]


Oh I am sorry, you are one of the tin foil 9-11 conspiracy guys.

So who did it? Was it Bush family with Halliburton and tripartite council?

Was it Israel/Jewish plot?

Please tell us....

I am sure Serge Knows as well. Heck he might even be part of the plot!

:yowsa:

I will refrain from political discussions on Oprano, now that I know it has turned into GFY.

once again,
you are trying to express your "own opinion" thru the "ANALysts"...why don't you use your own words? You can do it!?

as for others agreeing or disagreeing with me,
being an Independent Thinker,
I am not looking for consensus, even though, I have to take heart being a "Uniter" and not "Devider" of people....
please being olive branch to put on my head stone to remember me by...
;)

(if it's made out of gold, I suggest you insure it first)
;)

Oprano has turned into GFY????

I think we sold it way too cheap than! I told you:
Let's have a call option on the sale!!!! we'd be soaking in cash now
;)

TomG haven't walked out from Winetalk in protest and his Conservative Voice is a bit lonely at times...."uts" should learn "staying power" from the "old guards"...and it ain't making us blind!
;)

very keen observation...the year was 1980, I just came to USA and was talking to an older female collegue about the USSR, The Second World War, about the blockade of Leningrad by Germans when 3/4 of the city population have died from starvation...she interrupted me with:
Yes, I remember those war days in USA, it was real difficult times,
I couldn't even get my husband a white shirt for Xmass!"

THAT was her definition of "war horrors" [/b][/quote]
wasnt that stalingrad?:)

Here's my question: Did Michael and Serge debate politics in Italy or did the wine and food mellow them both out? :D