i think so :)
now ive figured out who KC is....

Sponsor programs are already doing this.. if we do end up totally corrupting the TGP traffic pool with loads of dirty TGP sites full of ads an no content would the surfers just put up with more ads to see the free porn? or stop surfing TGPs altogether? What do you think they will surf if that happens? P2P and newsgroups? Look for paysites to join in google adwords listings maybe...

With porn email traffic already much harder to get... would the biz have a terminal problem if the concentration of surfers around TGPs dispersed is another question worth thinking about it too. (lack of cheap/free sources of bulk traffic will make everyones costs skyrocket)

Sponsor programs are already doing this.. if we do end up totally corrupting the TGP traffic pool with loads of dirty TGP sites full of ads an no content would the surfers just put up with more ads to see the free porn? or stop surfing TGPs altogether? What do you think they will surf if that happens? P2P and newsgroups? Look for paysites to join in google adwords listings maybe...

With porn email traffic already much harder to get... would the biz have a terminal problem if the concentration of surfers around TGPs dispersed is another question worth thinking about it too. (lack of cheap/free sources of bulk traffic will make everyones costs skyrocket) [/b][/quote]
do you really think surfers will flee their current TGP havens and support sites where they will get "worked over".

the best thing sponsors can do is to try to work with these TGPs, geez its only been 7 years now. they should be going after strategic alliances, where their programs/galleries are highlited on the page, or as i have often arranged.... to take over a FPA page or a complete category page....

I'm loving reading Shemp's perspective in this thread. I really appreciate him taking the time to share his thoughts.

Thanks KK.

MasterP/Pornstar2Pac/Free-Poker-Ideaman doesn't care about counters or TGPs... he just wants to kick a little dirt in my face. Like you said before, "I've moved on". [/b][/quote]
hey now, I care about people like me not getting fucked by dialers and spyware. don't try to change the subject here. The Hun banned sextracker and paycounter for a reason...not for my amusement

No of course not... but do you think TGPs can live on bookmarks and trades alone?

If things go the "sponsor tampering" way you mentioned... I do think less people will go in search of any style gallery post to find porn because they will be jaded from hitting crappy sites that look like TGPs all the time.

But I wasnt making a point in my post.. I was more posign the "what if" questions; 1) Where would the traffic go? and 2) Would the industry adapt or die without TGPs?

ya, a very good discussion on an old topic.
you know before we had TGPs we had the sears catalog, lingerie section...
its was apparently very effective...

Yes, it will be, and I think paysites who start up TGPs will use the "if you can´t join them, then beat them" motivation, and with the amount of hosted galleries being produced by paysites, then I do not think its an impossible task.

I think there is a good amount of surfers, which by nature/situation are freeloaders, because of their age, income/matrial status, country etc. Sure they will end up seaching for free everything, and will never buy anything from the internet - let it adult memberships, dvds, pills etc.
However a good % of surfers are still able, and willing to pay for products - these are the people we want, they are consumers, so why build systems which cater to the lowest form of surfers - the freeloaders? Why not build system, which cater to the consumer instinct, variety of products, experiences etc.?

Freeloaders already have P2P systems like Kazaa etc. however consumers will not use hours on P2P to find their adult entertaiment, just to save $10-$30/month, they got jobs, families etc. to spend their time on, so if they only had the choice between P2P or paysite, then most of them would choose paysites...

Why make a TGP with focus on freeloaders, when TGPs make their money from consumers... is it better to have focus on this group? Sure on a counter a freeloader and a consumer count equal, however its the consumer who buys the subscription, the dvds, the pills, and this is the only thing which matters in the long run.

ya, a very good discussion on an old topic.
you know before we had TGPs we had the sears catalog, lingerie section...
its was apparently very effective... [/b][/quote]
Love that! Sears and Roebuck catalog analogy!!

I for one am loving this dialog without someone saying ...hey Shemp why dont you approve my gallery!

Yes, it will be, and I think paysites who start up TGPs will use the "if you can´t join them, then beat them" motivation, and with the amount of hosted galleries being produced by paysites, then I do not think its an impossible task.

I think there is a good amount of surfers, which by nature/situation are freeloaders, because of their age, income/matrial status, country etc. Sure they will end up seaching for free everything, and will never buy anything from the internet - let it adult memberships, dvds, pills etc.
However a good % of surfers are still able, and willing to pay for products - these are the people we want, they are consumers, so why build systems which cater to the lowest form of surfers - the freeloaders? Why not build system, which cater to the consumer instinct, variety of products, experiences etc.?

Freeloaders already have P2P systems like Kazaa etc. however consumers will not use hours on P2P to find their adult entertaiment, just to save $10-$30/month, they got jobs, families etc. to spend their time on, so if they only had the choice between P2P or paysite, then most of them would choose paysites...

Why make a TGP with focus on freeloaders, when TGPs make their money from consumers... is it better to have focus on this group? Sure on a counter a freeloader and a consumer count equal, however its the consumer who buys the subscription, the dvds, the pills, and this is the only thing which matters in the long run. [/b][/quote]
what site do you run? its a courtesy that i like to know who im talking with....

I disagree with you about P2P and so does Big Champaigne.

Yes, it will be, and I think paysites who start up TGPs will use the "if you can´t join them, then beat them" motivation, and with the amount of hosted galleries being produced by paysites, then I do not think its an impossible task.

I think there is a good amount of surfers, which by nature/situation are freeloaders, because of their age, income/matrial status, country etc. Sure they will end up seaching for free everything, and will never buy anything from the internet - let it adult memberships, dvds, pills etc.
However a good % of surfers are still able, and willing to pay for products - these are the people we want, they are consumers, so why build systems which cater to the lowest form of surfers - the freeloaders? Why not build system, which cater to the consumer instinct, variety of products, experiences etc.?

Freeloaders already have P2P systems like Kazaa etc. however consumers will not use hours on P2P to find their adult entertaiment, just to save $10-$30/month, they got jobs, families etc. to spend their time on, so if they only had the choice between P2P or paysite, then most of them would choose paysites...

Why make a TGP with focus on freeloaders, when TGPs make their money from consumers... is it better to have focus on this group? Sure on a counter a freeloader and a consumer count equal, however its the consumer who buys the subscription, the dvds, the pills, and this is the only thing which matters in the long run. [/b][/quote]
are you really saying that the TGP model needs to be changed for my benefit or for someones elses benefit? you sound like you are whining about the success of the TGPs... the surfers ultimately decide who makes money and who doesnt, all the theories and speculation dont mean a lot.

If the TGP model didnt work it would have died real quick, the surfers liked it and they still like it. Surfers still buy memerships too, but of course with those thousands and thousands of paysites out there, its a little bit thin now...

The point of this industry is to generate revenue from adult traffic. We're not in the business of giving away unlimited amounts of free porn to anyone and everyone (including kids! but that's another issue altogether).

TGP owners in general seem to think that using techniques like exit consoles, dialers or even "too many links" is pushing the surfer too hard. I tend to believe that giving away too much porn (whether it's a TGP, P2P Network) for free harms the adult industry as a whole by devaluing the traffic supply.

As competition increases (and as more free porn is disributed) several things are happening in order for people to maintain revenue levels.
- Exit consoles
- Dialers
- Increased Spamming
- Agressive Cross Sales
- Misleading Toolbars
- Spyware/Adware

I've even been hearing about spyware/Virus that hijacks people's computers to swap out affiliate codes on all kinds of sites including adult!!

What other industry gives away so much free product in order to sell more of that same product? Imagine applying the unlimited FREE PORN model to other businesses. I'm not just talking about loss leaders, I'm talking just pissing away product for free.

Car dealships giving away an unlimited supply of free low end cars in order to sell full featured cars!

Movie Theatres showing unlimited films for free outside in order to upsell the nice comfy seats inside!

IBM, Dell, Compaq all giving away unlimited laptops for free to show off the features of their higher end models that cost thousands of dollars.

The key word is Unlimited. To me the model doesn't make sense and even if it did work, it won't work for long because it's devaluing it's own traffic supply. Has anyone else noticed how important paid placement has become to TGP's survival?

I'm not saying TGPs are terrible and people that are extremely agressive with the surfers are perfect. I think there is a happy medium that can be found. Of course the genie is out of the bottle with TGPs and it's not going to go back in unless sponsors stopped accepting TGP traffic for some reason. As we know, money talks and bullshit walks. There will always be sponsors willing to buy the signups!

KC dont try to shoulder TGPs with the burden of creating the environment for the bullshit toolbars now.

I edited my original post to add the following paragraph.... I don't blame them directly.

I'm not saying TGPs are terrible and people that are extremely agressive with the surfers are perfect. I think there is a happy medium that can be found. Of course the genie is out of the bottle with TGPs and it's not going to go back in unless sponsors stopped accepting TGP traffic for some reason. As we know, money talks and bullshit walks. There will always be sponsors willing to buy the signups!

Another thing that kills me is the Hun will ban a counter that uses exit consoles and/or dialers on the same day that he runs galleries promoting Beastiality.

from http://thehun.net/

July 4: A woman loving her dog in this movie from Antwan
July 2: Two blondes doing a horse from Mikael

I edited my original post to add the following paragraph.... I don't blame them directly.

I'm not saying TGPs are terrible and people that are extremely agressive with the surfers are perfect. I think there is a happy medium that can be found. Of course the genie is out of the bottle with TGPs and it's not going to go back in unless sponsors stopped accepting TGP traffic for some reason. As we know, money talks and bullshit walks. There will always be sponsors willing to buy the signups! [/b][/quote]
didnt you just say in this thread that it was all about the revenue?

Without this turning into a debat about philosophy, then I could retort with "do surfers really have a free will where they end up? or are they presented with preselected options which they can choose from?"... sure those are also options, which they can choose from, but if the product/service/desire is not amongst the options, then they might just choose not too choose anything. Thats why its important to give surfers/consumers variety, and always market to them... the more options they see, the higher the chance they will consume.

I´m not whining, because as I said in a previous post, then the TGP evolution has already begun... what I´m saying is that TGPs, paysites, affiliates etc. need to realize that this will be the time, when we can rethink old concepts, since there will be more focus on making $$$... paysite should focus on better sites, tgps should allow more and better ads, and affiliates should learn to market without giving it all away for free... cause and effect will make everyone more $$$.

didnt you just say in this thread that it was all about the revenue? [/b][/quote]
It's not revenue at any cost. However, It's about revenue for sure!

I agree 100%.

Its all about the revenue eh?

Its all about the revenue eh? [/b][/quote]
Are you in the biz for your health? Are we all making the world a better place by provding surfers more FREE Jack Off material?

Maybe so, I don't know.

Are you in the biz for your health? Are we all making the world a better place by provding surfers more FREE Jack Off material?

Maybe so, I don't know. [/b][/quote]
I think its more than just about th revenue....responsible revenue without destroying the biz.

I agree with that too... In fact, I'm sure every webmaster would agree with that statement. The problem, is "responsible revenue" is subjective...

What's responsible and reasonable to one is abusing the surfer to another.

One of the main contributing factors causing people to push the envelope is declining revenue. Even mainstream sites from CNN to the DrudgeReport use popups/popunders when 2 years ago they wouldn't have considered it.

I predict some TGPs will eventually utilize some of the very revenue streams they are banning today.

Remember when 80% of the industry hated the popups used by the other 20%? Now 20% of the industry hates the 80% that uses them. Just an observation.

Most of the problems I'm seeing outlined above are a byproduct of the industry's tendacy toward wanting to take shortcuts and get rich quick.

Very very few people treat their users as customers. Instead they use deception and every trick they can think of to force them to where they want them to be and in many cases charge them for things they never asked to buy.

As surfers have gotten smarter, and billing has gotten more restrictive, margins have shrunk. The result for many companies is desperation and pushing the envelope even harder. We cling to the model of $35 PPS for affiliates even though a signup is worth maybe a third of that these days. No one will back off on the price because they'll lose that traffic to the guy who says he still pays it....even though he's really shaving everyone raw.

Trying to compare what TGPs are doing to giving away free cars doesn't fly. Stick with media comparisons. It's really more like television. You get plenty of free channels loaded with great programming, but you have to put up with commercials.

Do advertisers bitch at the networks if their commercials aren't working? No, the only thing they care about is how many people see 'em. Making the commercial effective and having the product sell is the advertiser's problem. Nor is the answer trying to have certain channels on the dish or cable box that when you tune into them suddenly break your receiver so it only goes to channels owned by that advertiser.

There's gotta be an attitude shift as much as anything before things get better. Now please do go ahead and tell me I'm stupid for not making tens of millions fleecing surfers 5 years ago...

WTF!!!!

I hate that shit mate , sorry.

Responsible pornographers ahahahahahahaha

pornographers with morals ahahahahahahahaha

No matter what shady , iffy things happen , are done , whatever "the biz" will not be destroyed.

Changed , yes. Not destroyed.

And when things change , the smart evolve.

I think this "biz" is do for some changes and those that adapt will survive.

While I'm on this rant.....

I don't know about other webmasters , but if I could make as much money sending traffic to "Buy these golf clubs" as I could by sendeing to "Nuns raped by nazi storn troopers horses" , I'd send to the gold clubs. (its actually now turning that way)

Personally I'm not in the adult business per se , I'm in the traffic/marketing/internet business.

There will always be an adult entertainment business of some sort , but I find myself moving more and more away from it.

Consider it done ;-)))

Consider it done ;-))) [/b][/quote]
Thanks Nick, knew I could count on you!

I find bestiality to be pretty gross, but as a vegetarian I have to say that having sex with animals is not nearly as nasty as killing them and eating their flesh.

I've found that if the Hun likes your gallery a lot but doesn't list it he will take the time to send you mail about it. He said that my advertising was too aggressive on this gallery of mine http://kinky-cleo.com/porn/trans/eve-with-...ke/tgp/hun.html Guess it was the snake, either the one on the model or the one with scales, that made him take the time to tell me that my gallery sucked.

Actually I think that TGPs are like a cancer in this business, but being the traffic whore that I am I build galleries just like the rest.

Cleo, how did your TGP earnings change in the last 3 years?

My earnings are way up from 3 years ago, but this is due mostly to sales off of my own traffic.

I only have a few TGPs that I actually see sales off of the galleries. The rest are done just to get my recip and links out there.

Traffic is a lot of hard work to get and real easy to loose so I build and submit something every day. Some days it is a gallery and some days it is a free site. Doesn't really matter as it is all the same content but I see way more sales off of my free sites but not nearly as much sales as I see from my own internal traffic.

I actually haven't submitted something to the Hun in a very long time but recently have been trying to get something listed with Angel's site as a sponsor since I have done extremely well with his traffic if it is something that his surfers have not seen before.

Grogan has tranny traffic....

Guess I should point out that Shemp's TGP is one of the very few that I actually see sales off of my galleries.

What a great thread. Very interesting for sure.

There is a huge difference between pop-ups and spyware. Those who are pushing spyware should have their nuts cut off. Pop-ups might be annoynig but spyware is all about STEALING!

yes Mike. The few threads that I do start always end up being industry movers or shakers.

good thread:)

May I use this oppt:) yo shemp, did u get my email last week?

no Dan...
try
rob at shemp dot com

:)

i think so :)
now ive figured out who KC is.... [/b][/quote]
I'll be happy to buy you both a drink in Miami and introduce you properly :)

I'll be happy to buy you both a drink in Miami and introduce you properly :) [/b][/quote]
2 players being introduced on Oprano?

What are the odds?

:rolleyes:

2 players being introduced on Oprano?

What are the odds?

:rolleyes: [/b][/quote]
in the words of Crocodile Dundee when he was asked what are the chances of him getting out of the joint alive:
"Better than average"
;-))))