Mike, um, er, I think moving to Florida you've been visiting Disneyland a little too much. :unsure: (Talking about your first opening post here, btw.)

But that said ...

Alex, from everything I've read, from experts on all sides, American, Arab, neutral, military, academia ... All are in agreement on the following:

"If you retaliate, Muslims will fight back harder. If you give in, they see it as weakness and fight back harder. It's a no-win situation."

Now, I have heard that quote in myriad forms over and over again. And I agree with it -- all execpt the last part.

Sorry, if you're screwed if you do and screwed if you don't, the answer is simple: You kick the shit out of them!!! You do not lay down and die while leaving the enemy alone. No one would, no one does.




Last edited by Dravyk at May 25 2004, 03:13 PM

Mike I saw row A in the corner, yesterday
so sit alone?
hehehehe
$450 but on the GLASS
boom

Hey hey hey Drav

Get it right

In Florida it's DisneyWORLD

Where I trade much $$$ for much, much :D :lol: :)

and worth every damn cent

>> Bush is trying to save the middle east.

I would think not since its in Al Queda's interests for the US to attack Arab countries, torture prisoners and generally act badly so they can get more Arabs on their side. They know they don't have a hope in hell of bringing down America on their own so their terrorism is a strategy that depends on Americans like Bush to react in a certain way when provoked.

Personally I don't think Bush and his boys are stupid enough not to realise this is their game and are just using the terrorists as an excuse to further US interests and settle scores in the middle east. Who knows if I was being really paranoid I'd say Bin Laden could still be working with the CIA, upping the militancy as an excuse for military action to intimidate and control Arab states to secure oil, support Israel etc.


should vote him out he acts stupid but his people are deeply shady look at his dad hes another sinister ex cia fucker invading panama and shit

Umm no. You don't save the Middle East. They been fighting there for a few years now, at least since the 70's right? Bush and his buddies have shortened more lives than the poor suckers who signed up to protect our country and found themselves invading another. BFE shit box anyway...that just happens to have a lot of oil.

Might as well go back to Korea, fuck them up; bitchslap Vietnam back to rocks and stix, Pakistan, then India, Syria, everyone with any bio-science capability, or any country that can spell WMD or ever tried to kill GBoosh Sr.

Watch for more bombs on our soil, mailed toxins and deadly horrific disorder stemming from this disgusting little power grab. You're all on borrowed time, talking about playing world cop.

btw. I got a side deal going with the devil, a nice office, condo, car...so evbody with sense start sucking up now.

:salute:

Yeah, the 670s.

Yeah, the 670s.[/b][/quote]
Sargon and Hammurabi would have said earlier still. :rolleyes:

Yeah, yeah. You're talking Islam; I'm talking fighting in the Middle East in general.




Last edited by Dravyk at May 25 2004, 07:26 PM

I wonder if people really belive, if any other than Bush was president, then there would be world peace, and there would be no islamic fundamentalist looking to kill EVERY person who are not one of them?

Islam function best in societies where people have no freedom, are poor, and have no or little education. With the extreme population growth in arab and asian countries, where freedom, education, and wealth is rare, then we are headed towards a world where Islam is the biggest religion, controlling billions of suppressed, undereducated, and poor people... and a good % of those people will be angry, and who do you think they will blame for their misfortune? (themself, or others - hint the answer is in the Koran)

The world is so connected today, that we can not shut our eyes, build fortress around our lands, and hope that maybe "they" will leave us alone... it takes just an islamic uprising in saudi arabia, and it would have drastic changes in the western world, and our day to day life.

And that just the short term consequences - long term a world divided into modern democracies and islamic states will head us towards the final war, which will be replaced with sticks and stones...

For many Iraq have been turned into for or against Bush, but the truth is that the cat is out of the bag... No matter who is president, then he/she has to deal with problems, which usual only have a choice between two evils, and not like many might think between good or evil.
I don´t like Bush more than the next man, but if I had to choose between Islamic Chaos or Democratic Chaos, then I choose the last (and don´t belive for 1 minute that the Islamist would not take power and turn it into Taliban, if the US left Iraq or any other arab/asian nation alone).



Last edited by Rolo at May 25 2004, 04:23 PM

You are 100% right.

See:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/431868.html


Uri

That is incorrect.

There are many societies where Islam and each of the various factions of Muslims live normal lives and are not interested in engaging in War or Terrorism.

This is true in Morocco, the United States, Canada just to name a few counties. In these countries the citizens live in peace with themselves and their neighbors of different religions. There is always an exception, but it is RARE.

Uri

Morocco might be 99% muslim, but it is not ruled by Islamist, and Morocco being muslim didn´t stop Islamist from making terrorist attacks at their financial centre in 2003.

Is there one country in the world, where Islamist are in power, where they live in peace, love and harmony with the rest of world?

Israel has taken every action with her hands tied behind her back by the US

If US did not interfere, Israel would have wiped out half its neighbors long time ago and everyone would have lived happily ever after

WRONG, the harder you hit them
they faster they'll learn

Did Saddam stay so long in power by being nice to his enemies ??

This is a great post. You should write speachs for Bush.

Democracy in the Middle East. Why not?

The US helped Afganistan against the USSR. Still they attack us.
The US helped Kuwait. Still they attack us.
The US helped put an end to a number of Israeli/Arab conflicts. Still they attack us.
The US armed Kuwait. Still they attack us.
The US armed Saudi Arabia. Still they attack us.
Camp David Accords? Peace with Egypt? Still they attack us.

The US have been way more neutral in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict than any Middle Eastern country. You know, all those nations filled with Arab brothers that refuse to take in Palestinian refugees. Like Kuwait who expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their land. What's the real agenda? Kill all the Jews, I'm sure. Hell, they've tried.

Some wackos think US policy is to blame - as if the US made the population of the Middle East explode and the standard of living go down while keeping nearly half the population veiled and unproductive. That crazy idea probably originated in the Arab press - you know the same people that print stories that the US used a nuke in Iraq and that the Jews caused 9/11.

So why not? Give them democracy - even if it is by the sword - and see what happens. What do we have to lose?



Last edited by Colin at May 26 2004, 07:32 PM

colin you can't have democracy in a land where religion is paramount
my jew friendn told me

Meni,

Go look up the religious demographics of Turkey. Remember, this nation was once part of the Ottoman Empire. Now they are a NATO-alliance democracy with a population greater than France.

Because democracy is the first step in killing a religion...

Islamic countries is mostly made up off people who beyond their own rational control, are member of Islam, because through their society and laws there is no chance to be anything other than Muslim.

All humans are born as Atheist (person who do not belive in god), it is society which makes some become Theist (person who belive in god or gods). Making societies democratic removes power from religion, and will fragment larger groups by presenting the many alternatives which are normal in a democracy. At first democracy will be slow - only taking a few members from the larger groups, but this repeats/continues over time, and at some point democracy becomes stable, and the larger groups can not attack all the new small groups, because they will become disliked.

Look at religion in the western democratic world - the big religions are failing, because they are no longer needed. Babies born today can remain Atheists, and later in life they can make their own choice if they want to belive in God(s) or not, and no matter their choice, then they will still be equal.

Ofcourse democracy in the middle east will not be easy (they have been brianwashed for so long), but its the first step in killing religion in the region, and all the bad things which religion make people do.

:okthumb: :okthumb:

You're exactly right. It's poverty and oppression that's most responsible for the terrorist problem the western world is facing today. I think there are only 2 ways of winning the war on terror. 1. nuke them and kill them all. I don't support that option at all. or 2. help them (by force if necessary) to attain democracy and prosperity. A much better option I think.