I like the concept

The surfer has to jump through the hoop after they have paid, important consideration

and the Pennywize guys have done good work for years

You really are newbie deluxe, aren't you ?? :yowsa:

Now Vick. After they have paid, and say they are in Europe without a cellphone. Or they don't know how to text message. Or they are in North America and just say at that point their computer fails. What happens then?

Now Vick. After they have paid, and say they are in Europe without a cellphone. Or they don't know how to text message. Or they are in North America and just say at that point their computer fails. What happens then?[/b][/quote]
same thing that happens if your computer packs it in during a standard cc transaction ... in your support section, I would recommend adding a new paragraph to tell your surfer what to do in this case.

you could either a) have them email your support staff or b ) discuss with steve the other alternatives based on how you run your sites.

> Or they don't know how to text message.

for clarification, the surfer doesn't have to text message - they have to RECEIVE a text message with a pin code and enter this on the confirmation page before entering the members area. Most people are capable of pressing 'yes' or 'ok' on their phones to the message that says 'you have a new message from blah, read now?' if not, they might struggle a bit with browsing the members area and installing feed plugins etc!

same thing that happens if your computer packs it in during a standard cc transaction ... in your support section, I would recommend adding a new paragraph to tell your surfer what to do in this case.

you could either a) have them email your support staff or b ) discuss with steve the other alternatives based on how you run your sites.

> Or they don't know how to text message.

for clarification, the surfer doesn't have to text message - they have to RECEIVE a text message with a pin code and enter this on the confirmation page before entering the members area. Most people are capable of pressing 'yes' or 'ok' on their phones to the message that says 'you have a new message from blah, read now?' if not, they might struggle a bit with browsing the members area and installing feed plugins etc![/b][/quote]
but you gotta have the cell phone. I also want my customers to be able to join instantly. Even when I am not around. For instance, in a couple of days I am leaving for Asia to play. I don't need to be dealing with hooking up pissed off clients. I don't allow my staff access to my billing accounts, so it would just not work for me. This is not piss. This is business. Please do not take it personally. Piss about other things if you like.



Last edited by J'sdude at Feb 11 2004, 08:21 PM

Well there's your answer J'

Obviously I'm not qualified or versed in the program so I couldn't answer

But as a business person you have to appreciate the fact the an effort is being made to combat friendly fraud and to further lower CB ratios

Also as a forward thinking business owner you know the solution being offered will grow and undergo it's own evolution to met the demands of the marketplace - what you see today may be radically different from the solution you see 6 months from now as well as 2 years from now

I do appreciate the effort. I am sure a lot of time and devotion has gone in to its creation. I truly hope they can make it work. I have uses Pennywize on all of my sites since 2000 and they do a good job. I have also watched them grow, prosper and improve their product and I appluad them for that. It is the same with Netbilling. I have been with them right from the start and they did the same. They are now a solid and very reliable processing solution. In the very beginning they had their problems which they diligently worked out. If Pennywize can correct what I feel are the shortcomings of this system, I would gladly use them. I just don't feel it is ready yet.

js, if you had've stuck with this point in the first place instead of being a smart ass then we wouldn't have been dribbling!

yes you do have to have a cellphone currently for EU clients, as I said above, toll free numbers for EU are on their way. the biggest problem with this system currently is making it work internationally, which is nothing new - all cc companies, phone billing etc have this problem ... this system probably has the same or less amount of people who 'cant' use it than credit cards do.

"GSM is on target to achieve an historic milestone during the first quarter of 2004. With more than 970 million users at the end of December and an average of 15 million new users a month throughout 2003, the GSM Association, confidently expects the billionth GSM user to be connected during the first quarter"

i'd like a piece of a billion strong audience, no matter how many potential customers it misses!

and like vick said, in 6 months it may be totally different - this is what has worked in trials NOW and it will be changed as the times change.

I have to agree with CJ on this being a good program. Too many are sitting on their hands doing nothing.

Also here in Brisbane we have a much largeer number of quite successful porn companies who have proven to be more innovative and proactive than most overseas. I am sure Steve wouldn't be launching a product and putting his reputation on the line if it wasn't well tested and effective.

That could very well be. But reputation is not what will put money in the bank. Hell even NASA crashed a couple of space shuttles and they have a good rep. I just don't see where this will work for the average web owner. I truly wish I could see it. If you could point it out to me, then I would be willing to give it a try. Please convince me and I truly mean that. Pennywize is a great company.

Hi CJ, Hi Oprano!!

Serge, you killed my account.. Oh, the pain!

CJ mentioned to me just before that she'd posted some info about Client Confirm here, so I just wanted to stop by and say hello.. it's been a while.

We've been working on this in-house for actually about 8 months now, and we've had it deployed on sites for 6 to 7. It really has made an enormous difference, to the point that these sites now process through a raw merchant account without any kind of scrubbing except Client Confirm. They are now well under the 1% chargeback threshold.

Just clarifying a few things :

Both ways a surfer can verify themselves are free. In the USA, canada, hawaii and mexico it's a 1-800 toll free number.
The rest of the world we use the SMS system, which is also free to RECEIVE an SMS message.

We are also establishing some infrastructure in europe, australia and asia now to allow free calls for surfers from those parts.


Also, the verification happens AFTER the join is done, so conversion rates are not affected. The obvious question is 'what happens to people who can't confirm themselves?'. Well, since most people have just payed money to join, over 90% go through and complete the verification stage. The remaining 10% is at your discretion on what you want to do.

I think as the year wears on, and the card associations clamp down harder and harder on processing companies, it's going to be imperative that people really manage their fraud control. Gone are the days where you can sit back and rely on simple card velocity checking and other automated credit card checks. Friendly fraud is now the biggest source of fraud and Client Confirm just about eliminates that.

I will be around to answer any questions you may have about Client Confirm. We are officially launching the service next week but feel free to stop by the website and check out the demo! We are already busy setting up Pennywize clients from our pre-launch, so please bear with me if I am a bit slow to reply!

We are also keen to partner with companies (eg. billing companies) who want to deploy this technlogy across all their clients and create an extra ongoing revenue stream from commissions.

Thanks

Steve Harris

I think it's a good idea. But i think SMS for the rest of the world is a bad idea. Obviously, not everyone has a phone, so you're going to be missing out on legitimate customers.

I think it wuold be great if it only applied to surfers from countries that have the toll free number. Like, if you could use some sort of GeoIP script so that until you have toll free numbers in say, Australia, then only Americans, Canadians, and Mexicans would have to go through this confirmation. And then when you do get a toll free number setup in Austrlia, then add Australia to the list of countries that need to confirm.

You'll obviously still be making a little dent in chargebacks, but you'd also be minimising the number of surfers unable to join your site.

Okay one issue about this in the midst of this piss I never saw anyone answer.... retention.

Given the amount of people who cancel before never seeing the site, 15-20% or higher, don't you believe a program like this could adversely affect that number and drive it even higher? I don't know about you but the last thing I want to do when I'm in jerk off mode is pause, call somebody, and tell them it's me. I'd be more apt to cancel, and go somewhere else immediately :)

It all sounds great and I'm sure as it gets tested on even *more* sites with even more real-world situations being applied to it, it will be refined and modified so that it truly kicks ass.

My question is what happens when the customer doesn't call the processor or site owner, but instead calls Visa or their bank directly?
I've heard horror stories of amateur girls who had ip logs, access logs, chat logs, emails, and even pictures (sent via email) going as far back as 8 months for a customer trying to claim that he'd never accessed the site, but he got his chargeback anyway.

I can understand if the customer calls the site owner or processor, you can have someone tell him "we have your voice recording", but I don't see how this helps if he calls the bank or Visa directly?

I like Pennywize a lot. I think they are going in the right direction and with the best of intentions. The concept is good, but I think from what I see, it is a bit cumbersome and will scare off business when customers are asked to phone. I do believe it will certainly lower chargebacks, but at the same time, will lower profit. JMHO.

we can already see this via our epoch data... I can see exactly which affilates have chargebacks and credits... and we did a housecleaning a few months ago.. not only did it lower our cb rate.. but it raised our average retention..

also.. i'm not sure on the percent anymore.. but what about all of the surfers on dialup and only one phone line? I really do not see someone wiht a rock hard, .. lubed up dick in hand.. logging off.. calling an 800 number.. then loggin back on.. etc etc.. I think they would find another site...

just my opinion of course :)

Whatever causes chargebacks to be less is good (just ask VISA/MC :-)))

Too slay the chargeback beast, then there is no magic weapon (unless you want to have fewer billing options) - instead you need to use an arsenal of weapons, which targets all of the possible areas where chargebacks can infest your business. The trick is too find the right balance without hurting your business.

I think a system like this would work well on some CC transactions, and with a few changes it could also be used to cut down the number of ACH returns.

Toolz, quite simply, the customers don't cancel immediately and go somewhere else any more or less than they do normally. They've already signed up and paid for the service, the step is just a confirmation to let them into the members areas.

The type of people who cancel immediately are the type of friendly fraud customers we are trying to stop anyway ... at the end of the day, what you lose on the merry go round you pick up on the ferris wheel - less chargebacks is never a bad thing, even if a certain amount of signups needs to be lost to do that ... isn't that what everyone has been doing for 6 months? compromising on sales in order to reduce chargebacks?

and with the phone call, you aren't calling 'somebody' - you are calling an answering service to leave a voice recording ...

I just want to state right off the top, this is not piss but a genuine inquiry. CJ, I was just wondering if you had any financial interest or benefit from this new Toolz programme or Pennywize. I have no idea what you do, so I am curious. It is a good thing to know this when someone is recommending a product or service.

When you have your own merchant account (which realistically, this is what this is best used for) and the customer calls visa, visa contacts the bank and the bank sends you a notice which you have the ability to defend yourself against (quickly!).

What 3rd party processors DON'T do properly is jump in at this point and provide the information to their banks or directly to the customer. For whatever reason i'm not sure, but this is where having your own merchant account allows you a better control over how your customers are handled.

When most customers realize how much info you have gathered about them, usually they drop the chargeback request ... anywhere between 60% & 70% of people just drop it immediately - the rest may still become chargebacks, no matter what info you present - but 'friendly fraud' customers panic when they realize you can prove it was them.

Nothing is 100% going to stop the chargeback problem though, visa will still let them through - but it is up to us to put some protective barriers between our products and visa.

I don't have any financial interest in this product at all - Steve & I go way back and we always help each other out with what we can. I'm always one of the first to have these products installed on my servers as a test (although i still don't have a copy of bloody pennywize!!!) so basically Steve provides me with software and I help him explain his products to webmasters.

I've been testing this product with Steve since he started the idea & feel very passionately about *something* being done about chargebacks, whether its perfect straight away or not.

When you have your own merchant account (which realistically, this is what this is best used for) and the customer calls visa, visa contacts the bank and the bank sends you a notice which you have the ability to defend yourself against (quickly!).

What 3rd party processors DON'T do properly is jump in at this point and provide the information to their banks or directly to the customer. For whatever reason i'm not sure, but this is where having your own merchant account allows you a better control over how your customers are handled.

When most customers realize how much info you have gathered about them, usually they drop the chargeback request ... anywhere between 60% & 70% of people just drop it immediately - the rest may still become chargebacks, no matter what info you present - but 'friendly fraud' customers panic when they realize you can prove it was them.

Nothing is 100% going to stop the chargeback problem though, visa will still let them through - but it is up to us to put some protective barriers between our products and visa.[/b][/quote]
However, for this you first need a retrieval. That is less than 10% of all cb's. By the time you have been hit, you are done. I have even had customers try and reverse their cb after they realize the error of their ways to no avail. So could you please explain how this will help.

we can already see this via our epoch data... I can see exactly which affilates have chargebacks and credits... and we did a housecleaning a few months ago.. not only did it lower our cb rate.. but it raised our average retention..

also.. i'm not sure on the percent anymore.. but what about all of the surfers on dialup and only one phone line? I really do not see someone wiht a rock hard, .. lubed up dick in hand.. logging off.. calling an 800 number.. then loggin back on.. etc etc.. I think they would find another site...

just my opinion of course :)[/b][/quote]
Greg, not everyone uses epoch ;-)

and yes, the dial up thing sucks ass currently - its bigger than any of the other problems raised on this page :rolleyes:

Solution: Voice Over IP is on its way and will be used to connect and record directly without the use of a phone. The same solution can be used for the entire world, preventing more of these 'what if i dont have a cell phone' problems for the EU clients.

Hi J'sdude,

From our testing, our customers get retrieval requests in around 50% of cases. So we get a chance to help them answer them before they become chargebacks.

The big thing tho, this actually deterrs chargebacks from happening in the first place, so your incidences of these chargebacks coming through are greatly reduced anyway. It pretty much eliminates outright fraud (what password hacker is going to want to use a stolen credit card when he has to ring up on mum and dad's phone line) and severely reduces friendly fraud.

When a chargeback does come in however we have had enormous success in ringing people as soon as we do get the notification. People *ARE* able to reverse a chargeback, but the surfer has to ring his bank and ask them to reverse it. Also, once you get the first one, you're able to contact them immediately and stop them from charging back other ones that they might be about to hit their credit card statements.

In fact, most chargebacks we investigated were because the customer didnt recognise the descriptor on their statements. When we told them what it was for, they were fine about it. At least with this solution you have a concrete way to contact them to resolve any issues.


The bottom line is that in all our testing it has worked marvellously to drop chargebacks and fraud significantly. We're hooking up a heap of Pennywize clients now, so in the next few weeks you'll have alot more people to come forward and give their own analysis :)


Steve

10% seems like an incredibly low number of retrievals for your bank to be sending you ... does anyone else running their own merchant account have similar results?

Greg, not everyone uses epoch ;-)

and yes, the dial up thing sucks ass currently - its bigger than any of the other problems raised on this page :rolleyes:

Solution: Voice Over IP is on its way and will be used to connect and record directly without the use of a phone. The same solution can be used for the entire world, preventing more of these 'what if i dont have a cell phone' problems for the EU clients.[/b][/quote]
damn.. I thought everyone used Epoch?? ;-))

also.. would this also increase man power to answer the phone or is it automated? and would then the research cause the banks more money.. therefore.. deciding it may be easier to just charge it back.. vs wasting the man power to research ever $40 charge in question.. I honestly think that has something to do with the ease of the situation now.. why waste countless hours on affidavits.. etc.. when they can just make "their" customer happy.. screw the adult merchant ???

the actual recording of the message is an automated process, the phone gets answered by an answering machine where they are asked to record basic details.

A person gets involved when there is a chargeback - you can request from client confirm (for a $10 fee) to have the recording retrieved from the database and sent to you.

Basically YOU (ie, the merchant account holder, web site owner etc) is responsible for contacting the person who is trying to charge back. All visa and your bank are going to do for you is send you a notice, which you then choose how to handle ... so its not creating any extra work for anyone but yourself.

In our situation, we have chosen to have our customer support staff pick up the phone and make a call to the person attempting the chargeback. The staff required to do this depends on your volume and how many signups you do per day and how many of them become chargebacks etc ...

Think about it this way & it sounds much more realistic to be making those phonecalls ...

100 signups per day
1-5% chargebacks = 1 - 5 chargebacks = 1 - 5 calls per day

1000 signups per day
1-5% chargebacks = 10 - 50 chargebacks = 10 - 50 calls per day

All you are trying to do is make enough of an impact to guarantee under 1% chargebacks (or .75% if it gets to that!!)

Hi,

you guys & gals are legends! I've gotta say. Where else can you get such good and well though out feedback on something like this.. kudos!

We are looking at a few options for processing the 10% or so of members who are not able to confirm themselves. I wouldnt mind getting the Oprano think tank on the job -- any thoughts or comments you have would be appreciated.

One idea i am looking at is implementing a customer support team here which can actually call the customer if they are unable to verify by SMS or 1-800 toll free. Most big programs send all their foreign traffic to diallers and therefore loose all of that potential recurring income... but for 70 or 80 cents per join (after a $1.95 trial for example) we could potentially fraud screen and therefore allow programs to take foreign joins again with comfort.

We are also looking at putting the client confirm process *before* the join process, because we have had alot of requests for this with regard to check processing. This would affect conversions however, but for check joins that's better than paying affiliates and then copping a return. That feature will be ready for release.

What do you think guys - we're open to suggestions before launch


thanks, i appreciate it

Steve

"One idea i am looking at is implementing a customer support team here which can actually call the customer if they are unable to verify by SMS or 1-800 toll free. Most big programs send all their foreign traffic to diallers and therefore loose all of that potential recurring income... but for 70 or 80 cents per join (after a $1.95 trial for example) we could potentially fraud screen and therefore allow programs to take foreign joins again with comfort."

Steve, my secondary processor is 2000 charge. They do that for most of their clients. I cut a special deal with them because I do a good volume, to stop that. My cb ratio is also very low. I was losing so much business because of that phone policy. Whatever you do, do not do that. It scares business off big time when they get phone calls. I hope this helps. Good luck in this endeavour because I think you are on the right track, but personal contact is anathema in our business.

My concern on this is leaving out those customers that don't have a cell phone. They are then left out in the cold, and that will take some weighing.

Has anyone using this experienced any customer complaints about it? If so, what is the average?

How is Pennywise customer service? Meaning if I have to get ahold of them because something isn't working right, or orders aren't processing correctly, how prompt are they with a response?

Actually I agree with this last part.
It's 2am, you're sitting there with weenie in hand waiting to log in, and the phone rings? Ack. Not good.

Heck I signed up for an affiliate program a couple of weeks ago (one of the poker sites) and for some reason they kept calling and calling me. Annoyed me to no end - I haven't bothered putting up any banners.

Thanks Kittyfuzz and Carrie, both good comments.

I think i have something on the boil now that will eliminate most of the problems raised here.

Thanks,

Steve