hell, down here, IF you dont have a least one bird gun, one deer rifle, one snake gun, maybe a couple handguns for target shooting and at least one bow your not shit :ph34r:


oh, I have none of the above

An opinion from someone not giving an opinion that was a misleading opinion all along.

How surprising. :yowsa:

Look, numbernuts ... the NRA's stand on gun issues is a matter of public record. As recently as this spring they were quite vocal in their opposition to an extension on the ban of certain kinds of weapons and clips (and I'll concede the hairsplitting point that this is more evidence of laws against weapons). If you would like to do a compare and contrast to the public records of the NRA and like minded folks as compared to the public record of the politicians you mentioned, you would have to spin pretty fucking hard to back up your assumptions.

I did not say that gangs of criminals make their way from urban areas to the suburbs specifically to steal guns in most cases, and anyone with a 5th grade reading comprehension level would understand that. While you may think you are clever in implying that thieves are stupid, they quite often are just the opposite. Have you done any reading at all on the black and gray markets for weapons?

Is this the great libertarian mind at work? Legal restrictions on weapons ownership will not stop all weapons crimes, therefore restrictions on weapons ownership are absurd. It follows logically that restrictions on larceny will not stop all larceny; restrictions on homicide will not stop all homicides; restrictions on the abuse of children will not stop all abuse of children.

Let's just eliminate all the laws. :wnw:



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Aug 26 2003, 02:40 PM

By the way... Carrie and whoever else showed this URL:
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

This page is nothing more than an extension of opinions expressed in this thread. Any one of us could have written it.


I'm surprised at the level of defensivness that B for C creates among those who feel it's their right or whatever to arm themselves.
Satire? No, I don't believe that this film is a satire. The numbers and stats given in the movie are real. Black is black. White is white.

Guns kill people, people kill people... whatever. People with guns kill other people. The more guns that are available, the more people who will be killed by them. And since many (too many) Americans figure they need to arm themselves against their neighbour, people will continue to needlessly die at the hands of people who own handguns and automatic military weaponry (for sport only!).

And Alex... now that I have lured you back to Oprano, do you mind answering the question I already posed?

Do you believe eliminating weapons transfers from Bubba to the criminal (whether they are stolen or sold) will actually eliminate the black market for guns altogether and hence have a positive affect on gun crime?

And further, in your opinion, will the criminalization of all guns in a country with 300 million guns, actually prevent gun crime?

Hey fella, you are the one with the fanciful stories.

I am not defending what the NRA does or does not do. My point, which has been pretty clear, is that gun control does nothing to prevent gun crime. Criminalizing guns will have no better affect on gun crime than criminalizing drugs have had on drug use.

All it does it create more of a black market than already exists.

Criminals don't care about gun laws. That's why they are called criminals.

Chris, you are not much of a critical thinker are you?

Show me where I said "restrictions on weapons ownership are absurd."

I have ackowledged the existing laws and have offered the opinion that creating more will not help curtail the problem. I have not offered support to repealing any laws and have even stated that I respect anyones decision to live in a jurisdiction that has outlawed all guns.

I have commented on the creation of more laws at the federal level and how it will unfairly affect me personally.

That is it. Put that in your 50 year old pipe and smoke it until your next protest. :nyanya:

I admit it... I am nuts about numbers. :D

You do mean you are not anti-gun nor pro-gun, right?

Yeah, you are a model of objectivity and moderation.

What's the difference? I call it as I see it.

By the way, your question(s) to Raw Alex are laughable. It's like putting a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.

he is,
FB says he does nothing around the house but critisizing her
;-)))

What's the difference? I call it as I see it.

By the way, your question(s) to Raw Alex are laughable. It's like putting a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.[/b][/quote]
So with your great intellect and critical thinking, your answer to whether more gun laws or a ban will end the black market and gun violence is:

"It's like putting a band-aid on a sucking chest wound."


How profound.

Do you have anything besides cute little expressions?

Vick, I happen to like Michael Moore. He gets carried away like most comedians...Dennis Miller, Bill Maher, George Carlin, Chris Rock...but they make a point and create controversy. We can't believe anything we read, so what's the difference if Moore's work was technically a documentary. It's just another category.

Here is Calif. our beloved Governor said he was going to sign the bill which would allow *illegal aliens* to apply for and be granted Calif Drivers Licenses. A representative of the bill came forward yesterday and said the bill says *legal aliens with greencards* not *illegal aliens*...the radio station, KFI, was going crazy trying to decide if the latimes was wrong when they have printed *illegal aliens* over and over in their articles.

Look what happened at the nytimes when a reporter made up stories which wer printed by the nytimes as nonfiction. Several executives left the paper. Bush says one thing, and then he changes his mind and tries to cover up the truth.

All you gun-toting porn aficionados should go to this site and give up your guns. http://www.goodbyeguns.org (sign the petiton and cleanse your souls) :yowsa:

Well, part of my weekend plans are to attend the Gun Show that happens every year over Labor Day here. I'm neither pro- or anti-gun, any more than I am pro- or anti- refrigerators, hammers, ginsu knives or callzappers.

As long as I am regarded as a wild-eyed radical by both the NRA and the (oh, I shouldn't ... but I can't help myself) Brady bunch, I figure I'm on the right track.

he is,
FB says he does nothing around the house but critisizing her
;-)))[/b][/quote]
Who is FB?

FB=FunBrunette - his wife. B)

Should of figured you would know. :D

Wig, as I mentioned in the other thread (so kind of you to have a thread for me, even though I only read occassionally and post rarely if ever anymore), I only added to this discussion to put some facts out there for people to take into consideration.

Peaches, my apologies, I missed the word decade. Further research brought out that California had 1.7 million stolen in that same time frame alone, with more than 1 million outstanding "never recovered".

I have no opinion on the subject, just trying to provide facts as needed to keep things moving along.

Alex

Next scheduled post: November.

uh huh. go back to your hole then.

EC- you're 100% incorrect and deceiving yourself
IT IS SATIRE, Moore has even admitted as much

That my whole issue with BfC, Moore lied

Try calling the bank that Moore alleged was giving away guns when opeing up an account ... Moore set them up

So with your great intellect and critical thinking, your answer to whether more gun laws or a ban will end the black market and gun violence is:

"It's like putting a band-aid on a sucking chest wound."


How profound.

Do you have anything besides cute little expressions?[/b][/quote]
It makes sense. You can't just make a new rule and expect everyone to follow it, esp when it pertains to everyone's beloved firearms.

Your society has been socially conditioned for too long to be able to just step in and "make a new law". Won't work.

Society needs to be "un-brainwashed".

I thought you'd like that one ... :D

I am a gun owner who very much believes in the right to possess weapons...

I also think MM is a hoot....

as my eleven year old daughter told me a week ago about something else....

"Dad, it isn't real, it's just a movie... Movies and TV aren't real"...

(and yes, I am very proud of her...)

:yowsa:

http://www.awrats.com/images/postal.jpg
http://www.awrats.com/images/generalstore.jpg

It makes sense. You can't just make a new rule and expect everyone to follow it, esp when it pertains to everyone's beloved firearms.

Your society has been socially conditioned for too long to be able to just step in and "make a new law". Won't work.

Society needs to be "un-brainwashed".[/b][/quote]
Un-brainwashed courtesy of Michael Moore and Evil Chris? :blink:

PD just like to argue with me and is trying to be in the middle now, so we are left with RawAlex, Michael Moore and Evil Chris.

Who else wants to jump on this bandwagon of morons? Seems like with last nights invasion, there has got to be some more. :D

wig, I don't feel like getting into a "yes it is, no it's not" kind of debate with you. Seems that is basically all you can muster re: issues relating to guns.

American is a gun society. Too many of you are armed just because you are allowed to be. Most common answer after having asked someone why they own a gun? "Because I can."

Yes America is somewhat of a Gun Society - in part because ownership of guns (rifles) help to liberate this great Nation

as for the "Because I can" answer - I'd like to see data on that :P

I really don't think many gun owners would answer "Because I can" when asked why they own firearms

I searched Google for guns black market http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navc...s+black+markets and here are the top links.

http://wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/90/126/04_3_m.html

http://webpages.charter.net/mad_prophet/ar...t/ge000016.html

http://www.free-researchpapers.com/dbs/a8/euz241.shtml


http://www.children.smartlibrary.org/NewIn...fm?segment=2096

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0894c.asp

http://www.womenshooters.com/archive/old05...acnutt0501.html

Most of these articles support the same or similar position as I do, although none of them seem to be really calling for a massive deregulation of weapons or as some have put it, "no laws are good laws".

Yes, their argument is that the laws themselves are exasperating the problem, so it would be fair to say that they are for deregulation of some degree.

Re: the 2nd Amendment. Here is the testimony of Eugene Volokh on the Second Amendment, Senate Subcommittee on the Constitution, Sept. 23, 1998

He is a law professor from UCLA who teaches one of the few classes on firearm regulation. He was also a clerk for Sandra O'Connor.

http://www1.law.ucla.edu/~volokh/beararms/...timon.htm#TOC.I

Michael Moore is to liberal as Rush Limbaugh is to conservative. Just as most conservatives have learned to be embarassed and hide their listening to or reading Rush Limbaugh I think liberals will soon feel soon the same way about Michael Moore.

Now I laughed my ass off at Bowling for Columbine. The cartoon in the middle was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. His points regarding fear in the media are dead-on. Of course they are dead-on for every other nation too. People are pretty freaked out and afraid in this world. Everywhere the nightly news is filled with things one should be afraid of much more than stories of say, scientific progress. That part was presented very well too. It's a very entertaining movie, so entertaining that I'll probably rush right out to watch his next one.

I don't think "Bowling for Columbine" can be taken seriously in any way though. Moore said that the belligerency of US administrations causes it's citizens to be more violent than other industrial nations. There are no statistics to back him up. My own quick analysis of the homicide rates in the US showed no obvious correlation with major military actions, for example. US homicide rates pretty much rose from the beginning of the century until 1933, then reversed and fell until 1958, rose again until the mid 1990s and have since dropped back to their lowest levels in 30 years. In fact, the homicide rate today is about the same as it was in 1913.

Moore makes such proclamations though and then shows anecdotal evidence (at times even falsified). I'm sure some of this will be convincing to liberals in the same way that Rush Limbaugh is to conservatives. Both say things that their audience already believes and want to believe.



Last edited by Colin at Aug 27 2003, 04:57 PM

As far as the gun issue itself, the utilitarian argument is interesting. There seems to be some evidence for each side. Seems to me that in some cases stricter handgun laws lead to more violence and in some cases less.

For many American citizens though the question is not a utilitarian one. Even if you could prove conclusively that for all societies at all times and under all conditions stricter handgun laws leads to less violence, I don't think that would be good enough reason for the people that want to maintain their right to bear arms.

For some people a gun is the ultimate symbol of freedom. "Even though it is dangerous I have the freedom to own this gun." Many other people believe in the primacy of the Constitution. They believe that the integrity of the Constitution should be maintained. There's even a party (The Constitution Party). Some see it as a political issue and want to defend it along political lines ("I am a Republican and this is what the Republican party believes"). Others just want to shoot animals or beer cans or trespassers.

Colin,

I know I believe in addressing the cause of the problem and not the symptom.

If we could prove conclusively that for all societies at all times and under all conditions stricter handgun laws leads to less violence, I would be willing to comply.

But I side with Abe who said... "Prohibition goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes crimes out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."

I look at violence and crime in a America the same way I do alchholism or drug abuse. It is better to deal with these things through education (and treatment) than prohibition.

It is the only long term solution IMO.