"when you should realize that Bush did the deed, he just framed the next guy."

Hmmm...Can we say 2000?

Vick, how does this differ from the radio windbags like Rush Limbaugh (one of my favorites) that misrepresents almost every single event in political history to shade things to his side? He does it under the guise of "information you need to know"... I was amazed in listening to him how often he criticizes dems for something, and praises repubs for the same action a minute later. How he forgets things so quickly... when anyone ever talks about the economy, he never does get around to mentioning that the recessions of the last 30 years always occur during a republican presidency... he just glosses over that and points to "democratic do-goodie liberal money wasting"... forgetting that the democrats never had control of the whitehouse, the senate, and the house at the same time...

I honestly think that type of stuff does way more damage than anything a MM or his kind can ever do, because it is presented with the authority and the "ring of truth"... no attempt at comedy.

Worse, judging by this board, some people actually buy into it. :-(

Alex

Alex - the difference is ......
Rush is a known windbag and his show is obviously his opinion

Moore won an Oscar for a documentary AND THE MOVIE WAS SATIRE!!!!!
Do you see a difference there?

Would Moore give the Oscar back because his movie was satire, filled with inaccuracies and set ups to get his point across?
It was not a documentary, which is what he accepted an award for.

The danger is when satire is presented as FACT and the presenter doesn't acknowledge it

Again everyone is aware that Rush is presenting his take on issues,
Moore is purposely deceiving .... and there in lies the brainwashing and danger

Vick, I see no difference at all. Moore makes his opinion known by taking documentary and adding satirical twists. He claims it is the truth. Rush Limbaugh gets on the radio and states as fact things that are not entirely true (often due to omission, or by taking information out of context).

I am WAY more concerned that people listen to Rush and take his opinion as fact than I do from someone watching one of Moore's films... who has the power?

Rush's site today: "Only The Rich Pay Taxes - Top 50% of Wage Earners Pay 96.09% of Income Taxes " - sounds bad, until you go a little further in the math: What percentage of the US population works at or near minimum wage? of the 96.09% of taxes, how much does the upper 2-3% pay? Are you doing this on a percentage of income or pure dollars?

It is misleading, it isn't entirely honest, and it misrepresents the real facts... you have a sliding tax scale in the US, and 50% of a BIG number is alot higher than 30% of a bunch of small numbers... Say you make a million, pay half a million in tax... another guy makes 15k, pays 30%... how many 15k guys does it take? In this case, top 1% pays 50% of the taxes! OH MY GOD!

It's horseshit at it's finest.

Alex

here's another gem... taking the opinion of one person and applying it to an entire nation:

http://rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_03...rder.guest.html

Sort of like using Jesse Jackson to sum up the entire US... woo hoo!

Alex

Fill in the blank:

Rush Limbaugh is to Democrats as Alex is to ______________________


:P

The Rush Limbaughs and Michael Moores of America put their spin on things, and so do the elected officials. Maybe even moreso the elected officials.

I think you are missing the gravity of extremes that Moore will go to


"Forbes reports that an early scene in "Bowling" in which Mr. Moore tries to demonstrate how easy it is to obtain guns in America was staged. He goes to a small bank in Traverse City, Mich., that offers various inducements to open an account and claims "I put $1,000 in a long-term account, they did the background check, and, within an hour, I walked out with my new Weatherby," a rifle.

But Jan Jacobson, the bank employee who worked with Mr. Moore on his account, says that only happened because Mr. Moore's film company had worked for a month to stage the scene. "What happened at the bank was a prearranged thing," she says. The gun was brought from a gun dealer in another city, where it would normally have to be picked up. "Typically, you're looking at a week to 10 days waiting period," she says. Ms. Jacobson feels used: "He just portrayed us as backward hicks." "


Do you see what Moore did????
and you see this act as the same as Rush presenting figures in a fashion that supports his arguments - and Rush does have a point as to who pays what amout of taxes in America

There is a world of difference between outright lies and deception and uses statistics in a manner that supports your claim

Moore outright lies and deceives and claims his work is factual and accepts an Oscar for his work

Alex, do you find Moore's action acceptable?

Evil Chris the above act goes WAY beyond spin

Fill in the blank:

Rush Limbaugh is to Democrats as Alex is to ______________________


:P[/b][/quote]
Colin, you perfectly exemplfy something I posted yesterday - alot of people here when they are wrong, just don't answer to the points, but rather go into a round of extremism and name calling.

I know you hate it when someone points out that every republicans favorite windbag is lying to you... because until it was pointed out as a lie, you were more than willing to swallow it whole.

Sucks, don't it?

Alex

Vick, I am not saying Rush is worse - but what I am is saying is that there is ALOT of manipulation going on from all sides. Rush speaks "the truth" - his website says: "RushLimbaugh.com Archives: the learning never stops since 24/7 members can scour the website archives for two full weeks"

LEARNING? Usually learning involves telling the truth, don't it?

At the end of the day, I can see the same techniques used by Rush being used here - changing history by omitting or ignoring facts that don't jive with the points trying to be made. Shouting people down with name calling and extremism...

We will look back 10-15 years from now and remember this era as the "time of bullshit".

Alex

HAHAHAHAHAHA

You got that right! Alot of it taking place right here. :ph34r:

Bad Example Alex,

95% of the total tax dollars in the US are paid by the top 5% - or whatever the exact percentages are - that is a fact.

Satire is comedy - in this case it is comedy being presented as fact.

I say somewhere that each persons share of the US federal budget is about $3500, what I want to know is where are all those bastids that I am paying for - they should at least come over and cut my freaking lawn.

Alex, there is one glaring ommission in your tax argument. The bottom wage earners, thanks to the earned income tax credit, get an income tax refund that is MORE money than they actually payed so in effect they pay NO taxes at all plus get money from the top wagers to boot. To say the poor guy is paying more taxes as a percent is pure folly.

The fact is that the bulk of the taxes are payed by the middle class. It has to be that way since that is the biggest percentage of wage earners. Democrats love to call any tax cut a tax cut for the rich. We could have a tax cut on baby formula and somehow that would become a tax cut for the rich. We have a couple hundred billionaires in this country. Maybe we should just make them pay all the taxes. That would make everyone happy, wouldn't it? Then when the billionaires all move out to foreign countries that are tax havens that will leave the rest of us to pick up the slack and everyone will wonder what happened. This whole tax cuts for the rich argument is a load of camel dung used for class envy purposes.

I know you won't believe a word I say so I'm not sure why I bother.

Alex - You're really blowing my mind on this one

How can you see Rush's presentations anywhere close to the same as what Moore has done

To the best of my knowledge Rush NEVER set up a business to further his own agenda

Again please let me ask you Alex, do you find Moore's actions acceptable? How can you compare Rush's actions to Moore's

I get that they are both doing what ever to make their point but Moore has purposed performed fraudulent acts

How can you find Moore's actions anything but incredibly reprehensible
and how can you not see a world of difference between Rush's presentation and Moore's deliberate deceitful presentation

Maybe I can explain it like this
Moore has deliberately set up situations and lies to make his point and passed it off as documentary and accepted awards for a documentary (that is at best satire, at worst purposeful deceit)

I would love to interview Moore on national TV and confront him with these issues -

Most of the world believes Moore's work is documentary, we know Rush is a windbag

Oh shit Alex - you're the pivot man in this debate - getting it from all sides - but we haven't gotten personal ... yet he he he :P

If you are set on going to Toronto please be safe - I think you're crazy but it's your life

The Truth about Michael Moore and Columbine

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Documents everything.


a snipit

Equivalent in our biz is bang bus. Yeah, it's all real. sheesh Same with Moore's crap.

"when anyone ever talks about the economy, he never does get around to mentioning that the recessions of the last 30 years always occur during a republican presidency

You obviously were not paying attention to much during Jimmy Carters Watch (which BTW was with a Democratic House and Senate)



... forgetting that the democrats never had control of the whitehouse, the senate, and the house at the same time..."

FDR, JFK, LBJ, and Carter all had Dem House and Senate for their entire terms

Clinton had them for his first 2 years

This is the first time Republicans have controled all 3 since Ike in 1953-55

I am sorry for interrupting the left wing fantasy with some historical fact

All this information was collected from whitehouse.gov and the US House and Senate Websites

Yeah, those gas lines were fun when Carter was President. In PA you could only buy gas every other day based on whether the last number of your liscense plate was odd or even and only if you could find a station that actually had gas. Those 18% interest rates were pretty fun too. I'm sure it's somehow the Republicans fault though that Carter was one of the worst President's ever.

Note to Sykkboy...he has done many great things since with Habitat For Humanity but he was a lousy President.

He's also a good neighbor - so far both times we've gone under "Orange Alert", the secret service guys have showed up - not as many as when he's physically here - either some of his family's around or they're just checking things out.

Granted, the SS guys are going to blow up just as easily as I am when a bomb hits, but for some odd reason, I'm comforted when they're here (and I know the utilities to the subdivision will get fixed really fast if they go down :okthumb: ). I also doubt there would be a phone company POP out here if it weren't for him, so I thank him for my DSL :inlove:

But he was way too "nice" to be president. :(

I was in PA at that time as well, didn't notice the gas lines much since Mom couldn't afford a car at that time.

However she was part of the 10% plus unemployment, of course the astronomical inflation rate was very comforting.

We did however have lots of government subsidized dairy products to eat.

Pointing out that Carter is a democrat and a bad president is bad logic.

Might as well point out that Carter was from Georgia and a bad president. The two have very little to do with eachother.

It amazes me how much people like to play on a "team"... you're either a dem or a rep (at least on this board).. do people feel the need to join "teams" and choose sides just because they like to feel like part of something? Dont forget that a republican from the northeast is usually more liberal than a democrat from the south. And all this Liberal vs. Conservative policy, do you mean social issues, economic issues, or international issues?

GW is a terrible president, his economic policy is damning (can you remember the last time that the chairman of the federal reserve came out with a statement that the president was instituting bad economic policy? no. cause it's never happened before.), his international policy is no better than that of a 12 year old with plastic G.I. Joe's and a passion for symbolism (never has the USA had more sympathy than after 9/11... every expert with half a brain now acknowledges that the GW admin has managed to completely destroy all of that goodwill), the man was a C student at a university that he only got into because his daddy was an Alum.

I could really care less what fuckin party he belongs to. I vote for the man not the party, and next time I have the chance to vote, you can bet that I will pick a man who doesnt "Mis-Underestimate" the power of "Nuculear" bombs.

Who in their right mind stands behind this man as though he is our nations savior? He is a short sited, closed minded, unintelligent, symbol driven, greedy man and he is hurting our country.



Last edited by Hooper at Mar 28 2003, 08:40 PM

OK, he was just a bad President, happy now?

:wnw: :wnw: :wnw: :wnw: :wnw: :wnw:

Carter was a very weak, well intentioned and unluckily President
Unlikely to be Pres at when OPEC started oil embargoes and drove prices of Oil up giving the US the terrible recession of the 70's
- Clinton was a VERY luckily Pres, lucky to be in office at the time of the internet boom and high flying tech times


Hooper - Who are you going to offer as an alternative to Bush?
Were you glad it is Bush in office on 9/12/2001 and not Gore - I certainly was, but I am glad it is Bush everyday and not Gore

Depending on many things, in particularly the outcome of the war with Iraq Bush could be seen as a Great President when history looks back

:okthumb: :rokk: :wnw:

well said!!!

the one thing i've had the most trouble understanding about usa politics is the 'teams' ... you have to be on 1 side on the other and you can't disagree with any policy or elected politician if they belong to the party you belong to ... i never understood how the best person would be picked for the job if everyone stuck with their own teams ...

the other thing that i've noticed is that this method produces a lot of sheep who agree with their party's leader for no other reason than he is a 'democrat' or a 'republican' ...

from what i gather, being a democrat or a republican is decided on a set of rules and policies ... you agree with all or none of the rules and that's what decides which party you belong to. I wonder sometimes why Torone and Mike have so much trouble accepting the opinions of others, and I've realized its because of the rules of the political system ... you can't say anything negative about the party you belong to or you aren't truly a loyal member of that party, even if your party is flat out wrong on a particular issue. every opinion you do have contributes to making you a 'left wing' or 'right wing' or a combination of 'labels' which you are then a part of for life.

What's wrong with just having an actual opinion based on the situation of the moment and considering the facts as they relate to that specific situation?

The political test we did here on oprano was really interesting ... we got to see everyone cast into an 'identity' based on a small series of questions ... are our views any more or less valid if we fit into the right or wrong category?

And more importantly, relating to this thread, does being a republican make George Bush a good or a bad president? Or does the fact that he's made bad decisions for america make him a bad republican? Or does the fact that he's a republican make him a good president/bad president no matter what he's done with his term in office?

and does being a pornographer make one a good or bad person?

or how's that old song go...

When you're a jet you're a jet
You're a Jet All The Way
From Your First Cigarette
To Your Last Dying Day.

It's all very reminiscent (sp?.. too lazy to check) of some bad gay broadway musical where people are choosing sides and grandstanding without noticing that the actual "choosing of sides" is the problem that our antagonists and protagonists are all really encountering.

Well clearly Gore wasn't funny enough for anybody. I would vote for the reagan daughter or chelsea clinton... or maybe Jeb bush...

Seriously though? There are some fantastic politicians out there who unfortunately dont have the ability to connect with the "average joe" which raises another question... why do we want a president who we can associate with and feel like he's the kinda guy we'd like to joke and drink a beer with? shouldnt we desire to have a president who is smarter than us? somebody who is truly a genius? somebody who doesn't slow down on the highway to stare at the purty red lights of the fire truck?

John Kerry... Richard Gephard... who was the senator with the really huge ears? anybody remember him? he was one smart motherfucker...

*note. edited to notate that i am not claiming that kerry or gephard are geniuses*

I think from now on we should have a new set of criteria for picking presidents... Just answer yes to four questions and he has my vote.

1) Is his dick bigger than mine?
2) Does he know how to do long division without a calculator?
3) Can he talk for 10 minutes without referring to God?
4) Can he beat me in a spelling bee?


i'd like to have a president who can beat me in a spelling bee is all realy want.. is that too much to ask?

New Slogan.. "George Bush, he cant beat you in a spelling bee... but he sure knows how to wave!"



Last edited by Hooper at Mar 28 2003, 10:11 PM

CJ - I'll give you the simplest explanation of the America 2 party political system you'll ever get

Republicans = Rich White Guys

Democrats = Rich White Guys Who Feel Guilty


If you think I'm kidding think about the Republicans (MikeAI, Ulfie, Vick, Torone) and Democrats (Todd, Porndoggy, Hooper) here at Oprano

Yeah I'll catch hell for this post he he he he

he he he Hooper :D

That's from West Side Story

Can go for the Bush twins but then I like twins

I have a theory -
Anyone who aspires to the office of President is unfit for the office, just by the simple fact of what sort of egomanic would want to be President of the USA
If you want it, you're too flawed for the job

I'm not a democrat by any stretch, i vote a very mixed ticket.. it's just that right now since the repubs have a majority in pretty much everything anything "anti policy" sounds anti republican...

I do think however that you everybody you named as a dem is a jew (perhaps the explanation for the guilt?) and all the repubs are wasps... just an observation :)

No, MikeAI is half Jew and I think PornoDoggy is Goim

I would have included Serge as a Rep but not sure about his affiliation



Last edited by Vick at Mar 28 2003, 10:38 PM

I'm about as Jewish as a Kosher Ham ... and I don't feel guilty about jack shit. As far as rich, well, I ain't on welfare and I ain't got enough.

I've voted for more Democrats for President than I have Republicans only if you figure in the independents that I've voted for (and that first vote for Truman [Nixon v McGovern]). Frankly, I'm far less a Democrat than I am an anti-Republican.

The funny thing is, I'm not nearly as far to the left as I used to be, but I'm further away from the Republican party than I ever have been. Beginning with the "Mitchell Plan" in the late 60s/early 70s to attract the Trent Lott bubbas to the party, and continuing with Reagan's mobilization of the religious right in the 80s, I've watched the Republican Party move further and further to the right.

yuummmmmmm... ham :D

you were voting in the 60's? how friggin old are you dude? i thought torone was the only ww1 veteran here ;-)

I have a birthday coming up in a couple of weeks that involves a five and a zero. At the moment, I am 49.

And that was 1972, not the friggin 60s .... No way was I gonna vote for Richard (no Dick) Nixon, but couldn't bring myself to vote for McGovern either.

youngin's ... :blink:



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Mar 28 2003, 10:52 PM

Vick, that's a god damn pearl if ever i heard one ;-))))

:biglaugh:

I guess I shouldn't mention that my mum's 50th was the 17th march, and I passed quarter of a century a few days prior ;-)))

50 is FAR from old pd, my crazy nutcase (said lovingly) of a mother proves that to me every day ;-)

Well said, Hooper. Georgie couldn't even convince me he was worthy of my vote even if it was only to cast my vote against Al Gore, for Chrissake... that's saying something. For all of the reasons you so eloquently pointed out, and more, I think Bush is a fucking horrible president. It is like a knife in my gut to know this guy is the face of America.

Voting for the man and not the party gets more difficult with every election, that's for sure. What we need more than ever is more than just two really shitty choices.

Y'know, the Presidential Package is no concern of mine, but as for the other three, I believe we ought to codify those criteria!

Good Eve,

just got back from seeing Basic with the family. Ok Movie, but nothing to brag about :)

Good points PD, Hooper, Vick, Rox.

I still remember being about 10 years old and my mom jumping up and down when Carter won the presidency, she was in tears and estatic. A Life long democrat, god rest her soul.

Carter forsure has made up for some of the bad times during his 4 years. He Def. cares about america and loves his country.

As far as bush goes, fuck I can't even tell you where my thoughts are with him. I give up until nov. 2004. At first I just didn't like him, didn't like his policies, his values, etc. But I have truly learned to despise him. As people in the state dept. are quitting over Iraq and policies, I can only PRAY to the almighty, that mabey Sec. Powell will finally get so sick of him and the hawks, that he too will quit. But I think he might be gone if bush wins 2004 anyways.

Who do I like right now, I like and always have loved Sen. Kerry, can't fuck with his patriotic record, that is forsure.

Officer on Navy Gun boat in Vietnam, 1 or 2 purple hearts, silver star, etc.

The reason I truly have respect for Kerry, is in the few years of the clinton admin. He chaired the sub commitee on POW / Mia's from vietnam for 1 whole year. I watched Cspan every night that year. He yelled, fought his ass off to find out any info on lost soldiers, I commend him for that..