the problem with torute is you dont know if you'll hear what you want to hear or the actual truth.

It is a problem. I don't know much about torture and it's effectiveness. The national psychological association always turns the really interesting papers down.

The principle part is not subjective. The practicality part is subjective.

There is no way to know what information will be given and what its affect on future events would or would not lead to.

Just my two cents worth. :)

I agree with that. It comes down to one's assessment of what information one might likely attain.
There is where we will all disagree.

Excellent posts from you guys over the last few days.

:wnw:

This reminds me of an 'Outer Limits' I saw where a woman was sent back in time to kill Adolf Hitler as a baby.

She became a 'nanny' in the house so she could get close to the baby and finally kill him. She switched the baby with another baby...got him out of the house...and then jumped off a bridge not only killing Hitler, but also herself in the process.

Turned out the baby she killed wasn't Hitler at all.....the parents didn't realize the babies were switched and ending raising the switched baby as Adolf....and it was HE who became the Adolf Hitler we know today.

Her actions were sincere, however if she hadn't have done what she did, we would never have known the horror of the Nazi's.....

I know it's far fetched...lol....but the principle is similar to what we are discussing.....who knows what affect the actions of 'torturing' these people will have....and who knows what information we might attain....it truly is subjective....

Well said, gigi.

Ahhh, Outer Limits and Twilight Zone. Good stuff.

I think we should torture bush till he tells the truth!

being subjected for a prolonged period of time to spannos ignorance, can be considered torture:


http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html
UN CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE
and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading
Treatment or Punishment


The States Parties to this Convention,

Considering that, in accordance with the principles proclaimed in the Charter of the United Nations, recognition of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Recognizing that those rights derive from the inherent dignity of the human person,

Considering the obligation of States under the Charter, in particular Article 55, to promote universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Having regard to article 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and article 7 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, both of which provide that no one may be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment,
Having regard also to the Declaration on the Protection of All Persons from Being Subjected to Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, adopted by the General Assembly on 9 December 1975 (resolution 3452 (XXX)),

Desiring to make more effective the struggle against torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment throughout the world,

Have agreed as follows:


Part I

Article 1

For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.



Last edited by JR at Mar 8 2003, 02:03 PM

States which have Ratified the Convention Against Torture and made declaration, under Article 28, that they do not recognize the competence of the Committee against Torture to investigate allegations of widespread torture within their boundaries

Afghanistan
Belarus
Bulgaria
China
Czech Republic
Slovakia
Israel
Ukraine

States which have Signed but not yet Ratified the Convention Against Torture

Belgium
Bolivia
Costa Rica
Cuba
Dominican Republic
Gabon
Gambia
Iceland
Indonesia
Morocco
Nicaragua
Nigeria
Sierra Leone
Sudan
United States of America

We *are* heading into war with Iraq. It's inevitable.
While Hussein is glibly double-talking and acting innocent, North Korea's leaders are loudly telling us to go fuck ourselves and threatening us openly.
Normal people with kids are actually discussing whether a person should or should not be tortured, and whether it's "right" or "okay" to do so.

Stop the world. I want to get off.

You're right and torture is by FAR a less reliable method of extracting information. Not to mention it's an extremely stupid move diplomatically.

Do as I do... stop watching/hearing the news - you will get more work done, and have less stress and I promiss your mood will be better in less than 1 week :okthumb:

News are overrated... everything is "breaking news", "news flash" etc. no matter how small and unimportant the news REALLY are to your life, then they are presented to you like they are the biggest issues in your life :blink:

Ah well back to my happy news deserted world :bwave:

My answer: ABSOLUTELY.

These are not soldiers of a foreign country that have been captured as a result of a declared and "official" war. These are murderers. Terrorists. Al-Qaeda's primary objective is the murder of as many americans and israelis as possible. Their goal is to kill and terrorize. That is it, period. Electricity to their testicles is too good for them.

Serge...american POW's are already tortured by barbaric enemies. Nothing we do is going to change that, either positively or negatively.

He's a militant fundy, right? I say his torture should consist of sleep deprivation, Ecstasy and sextoy-wielding porn stars!

Seriously, I know it happens everywhere, all the time - no matter what the official stance might be. I wish human beings would evolve past violence, but it's simply the nature of the beast, unfortunately.

Unofficially yes, officially no... that kind of sums it up for me, too. And if we're going to do it, I lean WAY over toward the side of mind-fucking.

And if it *does* involve my first idea, it'd make great pay-per-view, dontchathink? Much better than a public execution. :awinky:

Was he wearing a 'I am Al-Queda chief shirt" on? I didn't see it. Common guys whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? I don't mean to go on a leftist binge here, but this is still part of american justice, yes? Now it's ok to torture people? Does anyone else see a problem developing here?

Was he wearing a 'I am Al-Queda chief shirt" on? I didn't see it. Common guys whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? I don't mean to go on a leftist binge here, but this is still part of american justice, yes? Now it's ok to torture people? Does anyone else see a problem developing here?[/b][/quote]
who is talking about "American Justice"?

he wasn't arrested in North Dakota. Its a good thing for him that he was not left to "Pakistani Justice"




Last edited by JR at Mar 8 2003, 11:58 PM

We could always put him through trial, find him guilty, and then drop him in General Population in some nice *New York* prison.
He'd last about ....oh... two hours maybe.

Unfortunately, if he *were* to go to prison and even if he *were* found guilty (rather than trading off all of his knowledge for a free posh estate with constant surveillance), it would probably be some country club for "special" prisoners that are too high-risk to go into a regular penetentuary (sp?). So the taxpayers - including the relatives of the people he "masterminded" the killing of - would end up paying for him to live far too comfortably for the rest of his natural life. 3 meals a day, cable tv, a full gym, college degrees, book deals, pounds of mail each week from sympathizers telling him to keep his hopes up, endless appeals... etc etc.

Oh fuck it. Let's just bunk him up with Charles Manson and see what happens.