Right. Was thinking the same thing.

Right. Was thinking the same thing.[/b][/quote]
Yeah, me too. The only time they got up and clapped was when Bush looked right at them and thanked the military. Other than that, they sat there like they were against him all the way....

Do you remember, your President Nixon?
Do you remember, the bills you have to pay
Or even yesterday?
Have you have been an un-American?

Just you and your idol singing falsetto 'bout
Leather, leather everywhere, and
Not a myth left from the ghetto
Well, well, well, would you carry a razor
In case, just in case of depression?
Sit on your hands on a bus of survivors
Blushing at all the afro-Sheilas

Ain't that close to love?
Well, ain't that poster love?
Well, it ain't that Barbie doll
Her heart's been broken just like you have

All night
You want the young American

Something about Bush has never set right with me, and I couldn't put my finger on it. Think I finally have:

I believe he is a big phoney........... he comes over to me as being INSINCERE. I just can't shake that feeling. I think he is play acting at being a Christian.

President Carter - yeh he walked and talked like a Christian. He was a Chritian. He was sincere and continues to live his life that way. Bush.... it is all play acting, and overdone at that.

I think he is a hypacrite - I have trouble trusting him.

that's what i read yesterday, the military is against Bush's strategy and
there's already a real rift between the civilians and the military lifers. Not a good thing!

I believe it is VERY important to keep a strict seperation of church and state. When you mix the two you end up with something very similar to the crusades, national religions, and divine rulers. I don't think anyone wants that.

So, Torone...I don't think it is just the "Libs". And I don't think they/we fear the word God...it is more of the consequences that result in bringing organized religion too close to government.

That is all...

Torone, what would a political debate be without the extreme left of the extreme left be?

I don't fear the word "god". I use it alot myself, as in "god damn" and "Jesus H Christ"...

Seriously, the word itself is never and issue. 1st amendment says anyone has the right to use it all they want. But your constitution also discusses seperation of church and state. I personally feel that some of the programs, ideas, and examples used by your President showed a certain failure to understand that seperation. Many examples were given of "good christians" doing good things... but apparently no muslim, shinto,buddist, jewish, or other organization does good for their community. That is sad. As a politician, he should be know what politically correct means - it means working to include all groups in everything you do, and not to promote one group over the other. "Faith based initiatives" is just nice words for giving tax dollars to christian churches. That isn't in everyones best interest.

I have explained to you many times over my personal stake in this. A rock dropped in the pond in the US still rippled all over the world. My business comes from the US, many of my clients, and the political and economic situation in the US is important to me as a result.

Alex

Yeah, me too. The only time they got up and clapped was when Bush looked right at them and thanked the military. Other than that, they sat there like they were against him all the way....[/b][/quote]
It doesn't have anything to do with them being "against him all the way...." I think it has something to do with the separation of military and civil authority. They have to appear to be impartial, and have less freedom even than Cabinet members to voice an opinion on matters outside their immediate areas of responsibility. They have sat like bumps on a log like that through just about every State of the Union I can remember

I believe you are correct about the nuclear first strike being the only way to win a war with North Korea (It would be horrible of course) and also being a road we would rather not go down. I started a thread on this topic the other day.

The genie has been out of the bottle since 1945.

Yeah, me too. The only time they got up and clapped was when Bush looked right at them and thanked the military. Other than that, they sat there like they were against him all the way....[/b][/quote]
I wondered the exact same thing as I watched. Then I formulated a theory based on when they did and did not clap. They did not clap any time their clapping would indicate that they favored a particular decision about what the military should be doing.

My thinking is, they are military and are to take orders. Therefore it is their view that it is inappropriate to show any favor to any particular orders they may or may not receive.

In other words, when it comes to Bush's statements of opinion about what military type actions should be taken, they must not applaud. They are soldiers awaiting orders and do not express their opinions on those orders.



Last edited by Sword at Jan 29 2003, 11:27 AM

I believe the word is "reasonable".

PD,

Good point.

It's not reasonable in any way. It's not going to happen. The genie is back in the bottle and the US is not going to uncork it.

I'm taking over control of the USA
and my message to the rest of the world


I used to be such a sweet, sweet thing
'Til they got a hold of me.
I opened doors for little old ladies,
I helped the blind to see.
I'm gettin' real shot down
And I'm feeling mean.

No more Mister Nice Guy,
No more Mister Clean,
No more Mister Nice Guy



Last edited by Vick at Jan 29 2003, 11:34 AM

I have no reason why the "Libs" fear the word GOD so much, 'cause I'm not a liberal.
One thing I do know is that I don't want to be burned at the stake as a heritic because of my non-religious (anti-religious) views.

I cannot see how anyone with an IQ over 100 could believe the religious psycho-babble that has been spewed by zealots through-out ages in the light of today's knowledge and science.

Either brain washing from birth or peer presure is responsable for this mass stupidity, just like those poor bastards in the middle east who would be tortured or killed if they said Alah was a crock of shit.

PD and Sword... I was just talking with someone in our office who told me basically the same thing. And that they have always sat there like "bumps on a log" during the State of the Union. Guess I just never noticed before...



Last edited by VooMan at Jan 29 2003, 11:43 AM

I could live with a "God" thrown in here & there if I didn't know he was saying it more for effect (and as a nod to his butt-buddies in the Christian Coalition) than as a man with a true passion for his faith. I think his fake preachy ass-kissing, giving fed money -- and worse yet, putting such emphasis on it -- to faith-based organizations is a mistake, and IMO it's a slap in the face to Americans who believe the principle of a "wall of separation" to be critical to Liberty.

The thing that had ME screaming in my car on the freeway was that this fucktard has a TEAM of people to write his speeches and coach him in precisely how to deliver every word, gesture and nuance -- and yet he must have used the non-word "nuke-u-lar" at least a dozen times. For the love of GOD, can't someone in his entourage sit this monkey down and make him repeat "nuc-le-ar, nuc-le-ar" until he can pronounce it properly?

I am against anything he wants to do that gives gov't more power over and access into the lives of Americans -- Terrorists still scare me far less than rampant government intrusion into the lives of citizens does.

Now I must put on the bar-coded employee ID, and the swipe card I must use to gain access to the parking lot, the building door, the lobby desk, and finally my floor from the elevator, and get my ass to work!!! :headwall:

(edit for typing fuckup)



Last edited by Rox at Jan 29 2003, 08:52 AM

I used to think this too. In time though I've had to abandon the hypothesis. I've met a lot of really bright people that believe in a God. History is filled with examples in case you don't know any personally.

It's not reasonable in any way. It's not going to happen. The genie is back in the bottle and the US is not going to uncork it.[/b][/quote]
Oh, I see they put the genie back in the bottle, Oh of course they did.
And exactly how was that done? Since I'm no genie expert.

(I know we haven't used nukes on an enemy since 1945 and I was even going to mention the genie being put back in the bottle analogy in my post but realised the genie is not back in the bottle. The genie has been busy granting wishes and being good but the genie is still out of the bottle so to speak and won't be put back in the bottle.)

North Korea has a genie running around too, and we don't control it.

OK Alice.

Actually, it's impossible not to be true.

By definition, 50% of people have an IQ over 100.
83% of US citizens polled (Gallup) claim to be Christians.

Lots of overlap.

From the math desk ...

My wife "Shannon Rush" and I loose our fuckin' minds everytime this guy says "nuke-u-lar" .
I can't understand why they haven't fixed that.
Jimmy Carter used to do it too!

I been told by someone who would know ....
There are no atheists in foxholes

Because immediately after WW II the policy of the government became to use the nuclear arsenal as a deterrence. Panel recommendations have even concluded that the US should not even threaten to use nuclear weapons in response to conventional. chemical, or biological attacks. Mainly because it is believed that conventional forces are powerful enough to deliver a retaliatory blow. Certainly the US or any country holding such weapons reserves the right to retaliate with such however a pre-=emptive strike of that kind would be completely against all US policy to date and extremely unlikely.

A few years ago there were rumors that the US was planning to use nuclear weapons to destroy Iraqi chemical storage facilities and the US had to release a statement that even if there were a biological or chemical attack against the US, the US would respond with a devastating retaliatory strike without using nuclear weapons. - in line with panel recommendations.

I used to think this too. In time though I've had to abandon the hypothesis. I've met a lot of really bright people that believe in a God. History is filled with examples in case you don't know any personally.[/b][/quote]
Yes, I have met relatively intelligent people who were religious and most were using this front to advance in life one way or another. (In straight business you can make alot of contacts in church and thay stick together!)

We all want to believe in a power that looks out our for us, it's hope beyond hope. It's tough to be all alone.

I also think that the old line there are no atheists in foxholes is more or less a true statement, when a person has no hope for the future and may meet their doom at any second they will grab onto any real or imagined lifeline they can, I know this. (In a foxhole with grenades and bombs going off in my general proximity or under torture I'd most likely be apologizing my ass of for the whole GOD blowjob episode at the top of this thread and praying to whatever deity would come to my rescue, I don't know!!!)

This proves nothing!!! There is no proof only hope!

And that is not reasonable.

Oh, here ya' go with the evidence again!!! >;-))


Not evidence of god evidence of man.

Funny thing is, I was typing my foxhole thoery as you were typing this.

Hey maybe it was GOD spoofing us all.

Some stats (just because Colin loves this stuff:)

During 2001-FEB to APR, the Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted an American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS). It was a massive poll, questioning 50,281 American adults about their religious affiliations during 2001-FEB to APR. 2 They obtained some results that are noticeably different from the Pluralism Project's data. The differences are mainly because they asked their poll subjects what religion they considered themselves to be, rather than what religion they were actually affiliated with. Results included: 76.5% of American adults are Christian (52% Protestant; 24.5% Catholic).
14.1% do not follow any organized religion; they are Agnostics, Atheists, Humanists, Secularists, or have no religious affiliation.
1.3% are Jewish.
0.5% are Muslim, followers of Islam.
0.5% are Buddhist.
0.4% are Hindu.
0.3% are Unitarian Universalist.
0.1% are Neopagan (Druids, Pagans, Wiccans, etc)
There are many more small religions, each of whom are followed by fewer than 0.1% of American adults.


Interesting, only 24% catholic....

Alex

Helping the truly needy might be construed that way; but it is also the American way.

Sooo, the American way has Socialist leanings then? :awinky:

Tax cuts were not what I was talking about. I was talking about:

- alloting 600M to kids in need
- alloting $? to medical for elderly
- alloting $? to drug rehabilitation

These are ALL social programs....the very same social programs you have expressed that you abhor in the past......BUT, it IS the American way after all. ;)

By definition, 50% of people have an IQ over 100.

Is this based on the US population? Or the world population?

I don't think even this poll gives an accurate perception of the division of religions in America.

I know MANY people who were born and raised in a particular religion, and who would say 'I'm Catholic', or 'I'm Jewish', but they do not practice their religion, nor believe in what it teaches.

Their only connection is the fact that they were raised that way....







Last edited by gigi at Jan 29 2003, 01:15 PM

By definition, 50% of people have an IQ over 100.

Is this based on the US population? Or the world population?[/b][/quote]
Well, the DEFINITION of IQ is

IQ = 100*(Mental Age/Age)

IQ is Intelligence Quotient - hence the division (quotient)

Examples:

1. If a child's age is 10 and the child scores the same as the average 10 year old, the IQ is
100*(10/10) = 100

2. If the 10 year old child scores the same as the average 13 year old, the IQ is
100*(13/10) = 130

So the test is always comparative and in theory is continually renormalized so an average score is 100. Any subgroup may average higher or lower on average than 100 - either due to chance, environment, and/or hereditary factors. Big arguments therein.

There are many different IQ tests - none of them standard. Results may vary across tests though there is fairly strong correlation. If you score well on one test, you are likely to score well on another test.



Last edited by Colin at Jan 29 2003, 01:21 PM

GiGi, I think you are correct on this... I refrained from point out that, as an example, I am technically "protestant", but I sure wouldn't be able to pickout a protestant church on a map of my neighborhood.

I went to Catholic private school, and their only choices for religeon was "Catholic" or "none"... very inclusionarty!

Seriously, I think you could take a big percentage of protestants, plus a fair bit of each of the other groups, and quickly find 60-70% that are reasonably non-religeous... labeled, perhaps, but not part of the organized church.

I suspect that Bush will suffer in the long run from his inability to seperate church and state properly in his own mind. It could go nuke-a-lur...

Alex

Okay, I see LOTS of problems with that then....

This 'average 10 year old'....where do they find him/her? That would give me a much better idea of what this is based on....

I agree with Doug on this.

I felt like there was too much pep talking like he was trying to cushion the fall before dropping the bomb.

I don't trust Bush. I never have.

This country was founded on a belief in god, and those who created this country and this government had no problem mentioning god freely during their speeches and government functions. Why should that change now?[/b][/quote]
Because it's land of the free, liberty and justice for all....
and in this free land we have people of all walks and faith.

The concept of God is broad. It's the course of action that needs to be less threathening.

I'm tired today. I'll be ranting more about this friday!

She called and told me she would rather have watched the speech!!! :nyanya:

:D

You are a search engine maniac aren't you?

>;-))

Then they weren't religious,they were hypocrites :)