so, Colin, you do not believe in vertical integration?

I didn't learn anything new as far as the state of the industry while in Vegas. Some people were there, some weren't. There were a few noteable missing parties but I heard good explanations
from a few as to why they weren't and think it probably does not indicate any industry-wide trend.

I'm a huge proponent of vertical integration - on an case-by-case basis.

Where did THAT come from?

I'm a huge proponent of vertical integration - on an case-by-case basis.

Where did THAT come from?[/b][/quote]
case by case???

I thought it's a TREND, therefore "case by case" doesn't apply...
;-)

Sure it's a trend.

But sometimes outsourcing is preferable to integration. Not everyone wants to cut their own checks. I wrote the following in 1999.

- From http://www.buildinganempire.com/1999.html

---------------------------

Outsourcing

Probably anything that you think of can and has been contracted out including wartime soldiers (mercenaries).

One alternative to hiring an employee to perform a certain task is to contract the job out. It might be something as small as paying a cleaning service that would save you or one of your employees a considerable amount of time. You can outsource graphics design, programming, system administrator, payroll, bookkeeping, and almost anything else you can think of. You can hire girls to go to shows wearing your company shirts and saying that they work for you.

The core idea is that you need to focus on what makes you money and grows your company rather than on peripheral issues. The decision to outsource something can include many factors. We would never outsource programming, for example, as it would involve a security risk - allowing someone access to our servers, proprietary programs, and ideas. If one is on a tight budget, having everyone chip in every once in a while to clean the office might be a better idea than having a cleaning service come in. Currently, we have about 1000 square feet of office space and clean the office ourselves. In two weeks we move to a 3000 square foot office and will undoubtebly pay a cleaning service at that point.

I know one webmaster that outsources all his graphics work and always to the same guy. Someone who is both reliable and does excellent work. He prefers this to the alternative of having a full time graphics artist which would include not only aying him or her a constant year-long salary but having to create enough projects to keep a graphics artist busy 2000 hours a year - a problem in and of itself.

If you do have a programming job there are probably temporary services in your area where you can hire someone on a day to day basis and might even find someone you'd like to hire on a full time basis. Like I said, we ourselves would never do it but maybe security isn't such an issue with you.

You might also hire a consultant to see how you can streamline your business' operation or a phase of your business operation.

If you run a webmaster program and are cutting the checks yourself I know it can be quite a hassle. There was one program that ran into a lot of problems doing this - they had so many webmasters in their program so quickly that they were not able to keep up and the checks kept getting sent out late. You can call ADP payroll services and they will send all your webmaster checks out for you for (I think it's) about $1.50 a check. Call them and they will send a very friendly rep out to you and set it all up. You can fax them the info once a week or 2 weeks or whatever your pay period is.

oh well. :rolleyes:

hmmm yes. Refer to my post above. :bwave:

hehehe..

yeah show floor was empty because ME was not there ::)) haha

anyway, I agree with Serge industry is shrinking!

I make more money now than 5 years ago in volume but, we work harder for the money nowdays...

guess all the money has been washed into legal activities::))

maybe thats why show floors are empty?? boothprices are crazy now days and much work......


evil grin***:grrr:


btw: did you got married Serge? that would be the reason for me to cum to Vegas!!!

LittleC,
to bad you couldn't make it to Vegas,
I think it would have been SUPER cool if YOU could give the bride away
;-)))

I'm predicting booth prices will drop significantly this year Little C...
There were a handful of notable no shows for booths at this show, and many more no-shows to come, so AVN won't have any choice but to bring the prices down.

This all could become good news for Fay Sharp. :awinky:

I noticed you weren't there Little C....

and your analogy is pretty accurate
B)
what scares me though, is you agreeing with Sergey
hahahahahahaha&copy

IS AVN really going to lower prices? I cannot see that happening....

They are one greedy group, and what is really fucked up about it - is their service SUCKS ASS. So not only do they over charge, but they also nickel & Dime you to death, then they never deliver what they promise, and make things way to difficult.... What I am amazed at is how THEY stay in business....


There needs to be some major competition for them....

Mike (AI),

How do you REALLY feel?

Colin I completely agree with you about there coming a time when you may need to outsource. Wearing all of the hats is empowering and ensures that you *can* take over a task if need be, but it can also hamper the growth of your business because one person can only do so much.

Here's a question... if you guys are all working harder, what are you doing now that you weren't doing in '97?
If the growth of your business is the reason for you working harder, that's to be expected. There's more to be done when running an affiliate program than there is to be done when you're just an affiliate.
But if you're doing the *same* thing that you were in '97 (which I doubt any of you guys are) and working harder now to make the same amount of money... then perhaps it's time to hang around with some fresh blood who doesn't do things the same way your "network" of contacts do. Perhaps you've been stuck in a rut too long and need a fresh perspective or some ideas.

Speaking of which - Colin, you said you didn't hear any new ideas this convention, but KK said she did. Did you hang around with any new people and give them a significant amount of time to discuss things with you, or did you hang out with the same folks you usually do and just give a brief "hi" to everyone else?

I don't think I said that. *confused look*

I DID hear some new ideas. Pretty good ones. From old-timers, no less.

Carrie,

I don't think most of us are really working harder. The boards get all quiet on the weekends now but many of us used to work weekends and nights. The business is more 9-5 now than it ever was.

I think the difference was that if you worked twice as many hours in 1996 you made twice as much money - because there was so much room for expansion, because we were starting from comparatively nothing and because the industry itself was in such a massive growth stage it was fairly common to have months where one made twice as much money as the month before. More work meant lots more money.

The thing about new ideas is that almost all of them fail. The Holy Triumverate of a new idea is
the idea itself, it's execution, and it's acceptance. After getting an idea past the conceptual drawing board, the idea still has to be effectively brought to market. After that, it still needs acceptance by either or both surfer and webmaster. Most new ideas aren't good to start with and will still fail after all that.

If I were a newer webmaster I would consider partnering with an established industry entity
in order to promote the "next big thing-amabob" and to obtain enough resources to keep it alive.

Same time, different locatoin, but a show that will make a difference ?

Humm.. anybody else up for that ??

Inter who ?

errr don't waste your efforts readers.

There is no money in that! :)

Billy, I wrote and asked Missy at AVN if the aisles were going to be wider in florida, if there would be better accommodations for smokers (I call that sun-baked patio the Smoker's Broil), and if there would be any other significant changes/improvements to the show from last year.

She just got back to me after returning from Internext/AVN and crushed my hopes:
"There aren't any significant changes to the show in Florida. Aisles will
remain the same and because the facility is non-smoking...everyone will have to smoke outside."

:(

Like I said in Sharpie's Cybernet thread - same mistakes, just on a smaller scale.

Colin, you're right, my apologies.
I was referring to this line that you wrote: "I didn't learn anything new as far as the state of the industry while in Vegas. "

When remembering it and replying, what I remembered was the "I didn't learn anything new", not the "as far as the state of the industry".

Sorry, my bad!

Bingo Colin... not sure how I missed seeing you but we are in complete agreement on this point.

Serge, lol - yes I would have especially "shaved my moustache" for that purpose haha


Booths: prices dropping? will that get new webmasters to the show?

Are there any new webmasters?

The days of easy money is gone so, that leaves 2 kinds of people in our bizz:

the hard workers & crooks


Noticed a lot of "fake webmasters" using their lists of creditcards into our systems....funny thing should be something for a new subject...

We always here about sponsors shaving while there is also a BIG problem in our bizz!!! Fake WM with huge lists of stolen creditCards!!!

who solves this problem gets the big buck !!!

Who is first to collect?


:grrr:

Bingo Colin... not sure how I missed seeing you but we are in complete agreement on this point.[/b][/quote]
I'm not sure how either. :blink:

Let's not let it happen ever again.

AVN dropping prices? I doubt it. What makes a booth costly has nothing really to do with AVN.. what do they charge.. like 2500 per 10x10.. so in order to have the biggest space on the floor is only 10k... what IS expensive are the hotel charges for items such as internet and carpet rentals.

As well a booth itself physically can easily cost 200k... and the man/womanpower to run a booth effectively and throw a party also is definitely more than anything AVN related.

In the end (for example) we decided against having a booth because it simply wasnt "profitable" last time. Spend 20k to have a little booth and give away a lot of t-shirts.. then take that same 20k and spend it on webmaster advertising on boards and resources along with perhaps a party co-sponsorship and it makes money.

My point is only that avn is a very tiny cost in the grand scheme of booths imho.

!



Last edited by Colin at Jan 13 2003, 01:22 PM

Hooper,

I have heard a fair number of programs state the same thing - that the booths are not profitable for them. Bottom line.

Good to see you at the show. I'll call you in a few days re: what we discussed.

I ment to say: are there any webmasters visiting SHOWS !!!

sorry my mistake :P

Florida has recently passed even stricter non-smoking laws. I really didn't pay attention to them since I don't live in FL and I don't smoke :awinky: , but I doubt ANYONE has any ability to allow smoking within a venue. :(

I'm not so sure about that. Since this is essentially a *private* event and not open to the public, couldn't we determine our own smoking rules?
If the hotel itself has proclaimed it to be a non-smoking venue (as I believe it has), that's one thing, but adhering to a "no smoking in public venues" law is another matter entirely. Then it comes down to whether it's public or private.

I live in Austin, TX and i think we're 2nd in smoking laws only to San Francisco Peaches.. no restaurant can have any smoking in it at before certain hours and they require seperate ventilation systems etc..etc.... and to boot the rules are getting stricter.. i think there is no smoking within 25 feet of the entrance to a public building.. no smoking anywhere in the austin airport... etc..etc.. In fact I am seeing a trend of bars that dont even allow smoking!

When I smoked (cigars dont count ;-) I hated the segregation of smokers but I quit a few years ago... and now I have to admit that i LOVE not smelling cigarettes.

Rather than trying to start a new show, why not work with a current show that has a good rep and is willing to make changes and see how they work?
Sharpie's Cybernet Expo immediately comes to mind. She's currently looking for suggestions/ideas/feedback on time/place of venue, how to structure it, as well as if it's even worth it to have one with all of the webmaster parties/events that have appeared.

Very true - this is a problem that I had when I was doing scheduling for the AWE locations (in another life - lol). And it wasn't always just the state or local laws - sometimes it was hotel policy. What are you gonna do? I mean - even within the same hotel chain, each individual hotel had it's own rules/restrictions re: smoking, the types of banners that could be hung, the types of AV equipment that could be used - it was a mess.

Unfortunately - webmasters seem to be the biggest group of smokers so perhaps the convention planners need to look more at what areas/chains are smoker-friendly and plan the shows around that. I know a LOT of people said they missed out on much of the AWE info in the first year that was given out in the workshops because they had to take smoke breaks. By the 2nd full year we did smoke breaks between workshops/seminars, but you really can't do that with an expo/exhibit hall.

It's very frustrating indeed - ahhhh for the good old days when wearing a seatbelt wasn't enforced by law and smokers weren't treated like 2nd class citizens - or leppers. Freedom of choice man. Now those were the days...

Fake WM with huge lists of stolen creditCards!!!

who solves this problem gets the big buck !!!
*******************************************

I think I solved this problem for myself...
I befriended one of the sellers
;-)))

Pretty much every business in Florida besides bars goes no smoking July 1.

Bars-only are exempt. Combination bar/restaurants like Applebee's Bar and Grille have to go non-smoking also.

you American people are soooooo funny !!!

You guys rule the world, invented sigarettes + taxes..and there is no fuckin hotel with a smoking area..

hahahaha

Solution: I can get you any hotel in amsterdam and I promise you, you can smoke whatever you want !!!

Serge, lol creative solutions must come from your russian background hehe

:grrr:

MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE.

Please pick up your complimentary nicotine patch at the Pleasure Labs booth.

And candy cigarettes to feed that "hand to mouth" habit. :D

Better than a foot in mouth habit.

(This thread can only go downhill from here)

Rather than trying to start a new show, why not work with a current show that has a good rep and is willing to make changes and see how they work?
Sharpie's Cybernet Expo immediately comes to mind. She's currently looking for suggestions/ideas/feedback on time/place of venue, how to structure it, as well as if it's even worth it to have one with all of the webmaster parties/events that have appeared.[/b][/quote]
Kath..... That would probably just be too damn easy...... :-( Never happen - Just too many egos and too much politics.

I have set and listened to all the complaints and comments over the years and offered alternatives. I listen - then see what people do. Talk is cheap.

It all comes down that if you do not have cooperation, you just can't do things to it's potential. I try and find the middle ground...... it seems to usually be either too much or too little.

I listen - then see what people do...... Sponsors SAY 'they want newbies.... then are not happy if you have the show in a place that newbies and regular webmasters can afford??? For instance - $159 rooms that end up being $199 a night. A glass of house wine for $9 ? The food? all I can say is that I am glad I had a car, because there is nothing else in walking distance.

I listen - then see what people do...... Weather? Florida in August is a dream? Yeh, everyone bitches - but they will show up in droves...............

I listen - then see what people do...... I offer a booth that is for doing business and meeting people in a business "show 'N tell setting". - and at very reasonable hours, I might add since we do not open until 11:30. - Simple pipe and drape with tables, chairs, elec, internet for $2,500. Most do not find this ego building enough. They would rather spend the huge bucks and bitch.

I listen - then see what people do...... Everyone says they want ease of networking............... I make it easy, I put the showroom with sponsored bar and make it a gathering place. I do a hotel show, where what is usually traveling time turns into face time. Last year we even had the Penthouse lounge available for quiet and more private meetings. What still happens: Many make an appearance and then splinter off into their own little groups - and never seen again.

Sorry, all this is not very politically correct............. but, it is frustrating! I have always been open to suggestions, but can't really implemente many of them for lack of cooperation. Don't count on me to be your poster girl for 'being political correct..... been there - done that - over 60 now. Life is too short.