Hot air Nick.

I have yet to see any concrete example of how Bush is trying to spread born against Christianity through out the world.

Try dealing in facts, rather then parroting the same breathless propaganda.


Nick, the one getting blinkered is you.

Could it be that alchohol HELPED your vision rather then impare it? [/b][/quote]
Nawww...

You see I tolerate all arguments and then decide, but I'm ready to have my opinion changed by rational argument.

When I drank , I sometimes thought irrationally.

Whats your excuse?

Nick, don't worry, Mike never let facts get in the way of a good rant against the rest of the world (and those communist muslim bastard terrorist rouge non-nation and government sponsored terror minded groups).

Iran is very smart. They know that GW has overplayed the US forces, and there really are not enough soldiers around to do anything about Iran. The UN will certainly not be in the mood to support action, and the usual list of countries will not be interested.

As a result, Iran more than likely IS working on nuclear capabilities, and the US created the situation under which it could happen without potential for "correction".

Because Colin Powell and the US cried wolf already, less people are likely to pay attention this time.

It's just how it goes.

Alex

I do the same Nick, but my world perspective is a little different.

Alex, you bring up VERY good points. I am in shock.

Iran is doing a masteful job in RealPolitik. They are playing the US off the Europeans.

The US is in a weaker posistion because there was no WMDs found in Iraq.

It will be more difficult to convince the world to go along with the US to put real, significant pressure on Iran. The UN, and most of the world would be against any military action, or any real pressure that would change Iran's mind.

However, this does not change the fact that Iran is a threat to the US, and with nuclear weapons it would become untouchable.

If the UN and Europe do not come around, the US will be forced to act unilaterally. ( Israel is a wild card here as well). Fortunately, we have a President who understand this, and the US has enough capability to take out Iran's nuclear program on its own.

I give full respect to the Iranian leaders - they have been very effective, and very wise. Certainly they played the game better then Saddam did.

Uhh, ok. "The american people were fooled once on WMD in Iraq... fool them a second time in Iran, well... " - Raw Alex (a few hours ago). So now, after just a few hours, you are being fooled just like all us 'mericans? Cool. I guess Powell got inside your head. That was quick.

Maybe you are new to following world politics but the dispute with the Iranians on this issue has been going on for quite some time, long before Bush's election.

-------------

(April 2000) ENDING A TWO-YEAR dispute with Congress, on March 14 President Clinton signed the Iran Nonproliferation Act of 2000, which authorizes him to take punitive action against individuals or organizations known to be providing material aid to weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs in Iran. The legislation (H.R. 1883) also substantially cuts U.S. funding to Russian space agencies responsible for the joint U.S.-Russian space station project, absent a determination that Russia "has demonstrated and continues to demonstrate a sustained commitment to seek out and prevent" aid to Iran's weapons programs.

Clinton vetoed a 1998 version of the bill that focused on missile proliferation to Iran because it required the imposition of sanctions on Russian entities unless the president determined that a waiver of sanctions was "essential" to U.S. national security. The administration argued that the legislation, the Iran Missile Proliferation Sanctions Act of 1998, would harm the administration's effort to garner Russian cooperation on a wide range of proliferation issues.

However, to demonstrate his commitment to stopping Russian aid to Iran's WMD efforts and to avoid an override of his veto, Clinton amended Executive Order 12938, the 1994 order that declared a national emergency with regard to WMD proliferation, to allow the executive branch to impose financial penalties on proliferators. Clinton immediately exercised this new authority, sanctioning seven Russian entities in June 1998 for their assistance to Iran's ballistic missile program. Three more were sanctioned in January 1999 for the same reason. (See ACT, June/July 1998 and January/February 1999.)

The language of the new law is substantially less restrictive than the 1998 legislation. It requires the president to submit to Congress every six months a list of entities known to be providing material assistance to Iranian WMD programs. The president is then authorized and encouraged to utilize Executive Order 12938 provisions, arms export prohibitions, and dual-use export prohibitions on those entities. But the onus for action remains soundly with the president. Should the president decide not to take action against a particular entity, congressional notification and a written explanation is required, but a waiver is not.

Apart from expanded reporting requirements, the legislation will not require any demonstrable action by the administration against Russian entities. Russian officials nevertheless responded angrily to the suggestion that Russia was aiding Iranian programs.

"Why are we considered fools?" Sergei Ivanov, secretary of the Russian Security Council, asked in an interview with the Interfax news agency. Russia, he said, has no interest in giving Iran "a grenade with a pulled-out pin" that could then "be hurled back" at Moscow.

The Russian Foreign Ministry also balked at the legislation. In a March 15 statement released to Interfax, the Foreign Ministry noted that, depending on the administration's use of the authority granted in the legislation, the bill "may significantly undermine…Russian-American interaction in the field of non-proliferation and export control."

The bill's strong bipartisan support (the measure was passed unanimously in both houses) sent a message to the White House that Congress is concerned about Russian involvement in Iranian proliferation activities. Congressional sources said that many members see the legislation as a gentle reminder to the president that Capitol Hill is watching the administration on this issue.

Source: http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2000_04/irnap00.asp

How is Iran a threat to the U.S. ? (and yes, that is a serious question)

Well - I wouldn´t call the iranian mullahs smart (these are the same people who base their life on 1400 years old outdated ideology) - they have only survived, because nobody really gave a shit (meaning who wanted to die in some iranian desert in the 80s and 90s, beside iraqis?)... however that have changed now - I give them 10 years, then they have either been overthrown, or they have crippled their own economy and people to a point where they will be unable to do anything, beside endless friday prayer rhetoric.

Iran is not surround yet, however freedom have never been closer to their borders, and I think the mullahs are stressed about the future, so we should keep knocking on their door until they break down.

How is Iran a threat to the U.S. ? (and yes, that is a serious question) [/b][/quote]
They keep shooting " Bring it bitch , we are well hard" looks at the USA.

;-))))

:blink:

Unlike our current administration that bases it on a 2000 year old outdated ideaology eh ?

When Bush reinitiate the Inquisition, then you can compare the two...

When Bush reinitiate the Inquisition, then you can compare the two... [/b][/quote]
give him a year two..

Inquisition!!!!!

HA!!!!!!


NOBODY expects the Inquisition!

Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and suprise....

Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency....

Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to George Bush....

Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise....


I'll come in again.






;-)))

AHA!!!!!

NOBODY expects the Inquisition!

Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to George Bush, and nice red uniforms -

Oh damn!

How is Iran a threat to the U.S. ? (and yes, that is a serious question) [/b][/quote]


You are joking I hope.

Iran with nuclear weapons is a huge threat to the US and our interests.

You may want to take some time to read up on the recent history of Iran, and the people who run the show. From about 1970 to today....

To think otherwise would put you in a fringe group that even Al Gore would be scared to support.

give him a year two..

Inquisition!!!!!

HA!!!!!!


NOBODY expects the Inquisition!

Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and suprise....

Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency....

Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....

Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise....


I'll come in again.






;-))) [/b][/quote]
Don't forget "shock"

oh yeah almost forgot, can't leave out "awe"

I waited 4 years for the crackdown from Ashcroft....


:zzz:

How is Iran a threat to the U.S. ? (and yes, that is a serious question) [/b][/quote]
pretty much the same way some ragtag group of guys from the desert of afganastan was

; )))

Unlike our current administration that bases it on a 2000 year old outdated ideaology eh ? [/b][/quote]
I see us Canadians are rubbing off on you, EH?, Sarettah. :yowsa:

Yeah , prior to 1970 it was an idylic oasis of reason in the tumultous sand sea of Arabia.

;-))



( Hell I can use my mouth better than Mary36DD)

;-))

I see us Canadians are rubbing off on you, EH?, Sarettah. :yowsa: [/b][/quote]
I have never "rubbed off" on sarettah!!!

Its a vicious lie!!!

But if he ever comes to Vancouver I may ;-))

A threat to interests we have over there, yes.

A threat to the U.S.... Not yet in any real sense of the word.

Those aren't intercontinental missiles they are developing.

As far as going back to 1970 or there abouts, We created a situation there by openly supporting the Shah and failing to react to what was going on in the country. We could have ended up with a much better situation if we had kept the Shah in reign instead of letting him do his own little tyrranical thing. Funny thing with puppets is that you have to keep a pretty tight hold of the strings to make them do what you want, ya know.

You are joking I hope.

Iran with nuclear weapons is a huge threat to the US and our interests.

You may want to take some time to read up on the recent history of Iran, and the people who run the show. From about 1970 to today....

To think otherwise would put you in a fringe group that even Al Gore would be scared to support. [/b][/quote]
And pretty neat there that you failed to answer my question, you merely repeated your assertion.

So, I will ask again: "How is Iran a threat to the United States ?"

Not our interests, Not Israel, but us, "We the people", The United States of America (oh, and the red states too)

pretty much the same way some ragtag group of guys from the desert of afganastan was

; ))) [/b][/quote]
Same could be said of Timothy McVeigh and other members of groups here in the U.S.

Colin, "more than likely" isn't exactly "yes they are". I wouldn't put it past the Iranian leaders to be taking advantage of the US having played itself out in Iraq. They know that, without a doubt, the US cannot and will not open a THIRD front in the "war on them muslim people who might know they guy who paid the guy who visited the guy who traveled with the guy who once spent a moment in the same country as bin ladin". So they take their moment in the sun, step up to the plate, and move forward with plans to join the "big club".

However, having Colin Powell of all people up there claiming Iran is working on WMD is, well, humorous at best. He has such little credibility on this issue. The world as a whole would be more likely to accept and agree with comments made from the whitehouse janitor than Powell on this issue.

Mike, until the US gets 100% out of Afghanistan, they will not have the military muscle available to really fight a war with Iran. Iran knows it. The US has become very mired down, forces stretched to the practical limits, and there is little or no way out of the situations quickly. Iraq will be another 2 - 3 years, maybe more...

Because Bush has not been good at getting people to be on "his team", he is going it alone. There are only so many military people, so much equipment, and so much desire in the bank before the US will have to stop being the world's policeman.

Alex

Same could be said of Timothy McVeigh and other members of groups here in the U.S. [/b][/quote]
AHA!!!!!

Now, Sarettah!!!

you have one last chance.

Confess the heinous sin of heresy to the great Bush, reject the works of the democrats

*two* last chances.

And you shall be free

*three* last chances.

You have three last chances, the nature of which I have divulged in my previous utterance.

A threat to interests we have over there, yes.

A threat to the U.S.... Not yet in any real sense of the word.

Those aren't intercontinental missiles they are developing.

As far as going back to 1970 or there abouts, We created a situation there by openly supporting the Shah and failing to react to what was going on in the country. We could have ended up with a much better situation if we had kept the Shah in reign instead of letting him do his own little tyrranical thing. Funny thing with puppets is that you have to keep a pretty tight hold of the strings to make them do what you want, ya know. [/b][/quote]


Well where do we draw the line Sarattah? You seem to be against allowing them to attain ICBMs.

The hard part in nuclear weapons is development of the nuclear device itself. Delivery is much easier.

In case you have not figured it out, there are many inventive ways to deliver a nuclear device besides ICBMs.

You could smuggle it through cargo ship, airplane ( 9-11 style), across mexican/candian borders in trucks.

How many tons of drugs cross the US borders everyday?

I am dissappointed that you cannot see nuclear Iran as a direct threat to the US.

Oh and for the record, a Nation's interests around the world are worth fighting for.

errr Mike , this is something maybe we should discuss , privately.


;-))))

What about the World's interests being worth fighting a nation over?

Wrong.

Nuclear devices are actually quite simple to build. Plans used to be on the net in fact. Arose from a college junior designing a practical Nuclear weapon as a class project.

The hard part is obtaining clean fission material. And then the delivery system. Much more time has been devoted in this world to delivering practical delivery systems then there has been to developing nukes.


IMHO of course :)

Same could be said of Timothy McVeigh and other members of groups here in the U.S. [/b][/quote]
doh, anyone can be a threat, just becuause they live across the world dosnt mean they are not. right? and I'm sure there's a few missiles out there for sale that could reach your house. after they have the warheads what do you think will be their next purchase ; ))

Same could be said of Timothy McVeigh and other members of groups here in the U.S. [/b][/quote]
ah, but Timmy was a good, christian boy, not some insane towleheaded camel jockey who wipes his ass without benefit of toilet paper.......

I think we'll see a new civil war in our lifetime long before we see the arab boogeyman launch an all out nuclear atack on us...I fear the enemy within more than one across the sea...

and don't worry Nick, I caught your Monty Python reference ;-)
although, I also have this song in my head called "The Inquisition" featuring Torquemada and some nuns in a pool doing some synchronized swimming...

reading this thread makes me believe that some of you forgot what happened on 9/11. It WILL happen again. no matter who is pres, no matter what Alex says, no matter what I or mikeai say. There's a group of folks on this planet that will not rest(they dont take sundays off:) untill they hit us over and over. They THINK they can beat the US in this war and will do everything they can to prove it.

Who and where are these people , Dan?

I'm happy for them to be identified ,hunted and for these criminals to face justice.

But if in order to do that , you too become a perpetrator of attrocities on innocents of the same magnitude as 9/11...

Exactly, anyone can be a threat, unfortunately for me I was raised with this really weird idea that it was considered anti social to run around beating the hell out of people just because I thought they might hurt me. I was taught that I would have to be able to prove that someone was trying to hurt me before it was ok to take action. I was also taught that just because I was the biggest kid in school (and you know that you and I stand almost eye to eye eh Danny) did not give me the right to appoint myself as class regulator.

Who and where are these people , Dan?

I'm happy for them to be identified ,hunted and for these criminals to face justice.

But if in order to do that , you too become a perpetrator of attrocities on innocents of the same magnitude as 9/11... [/b][/quote]
damn, I'm happy you quit drinking and doing drugs, your down to just a handfull of brain cells.

damn, I'm happy you quit drinking and doing drugs, your down to just a handfull of brain cells. [/b][/quote]
and by that post it proves I STILL have double yours.

Note so far ..

Two of our looney right candidates have brought in my sobriety to use against me in this discussion.

Interesting.

he he he


:wnw:

Nick, welcome to my end of the playing field: Where logic, information, and fact are negated by "your a liberal" "your a commie" "you sucked Fidel off" etc.

I have learned to accept that comments like that are actually their gentle way of saying "your right, but I can't bring myself to admit it".

:-)

Alex

Feels icky when PD is on the rational side...

What a world, what a world...

ignorance is bliss :awinky: