It's even worse than that. I do volunteer work for a consumer group in Atlanta and some of the crackpot ideas we get are bizarre.

Just some examples:

Everyone should be paid a fair living wage. If a man is married has 5 kids and is doing the exact same job as a single man, then the "family" man should make a lot more $$$ than the single man. After all, he needs it more.

All businesses should provide full healthcare insurance, cost free, to their employees. If you don't work, then of course the government should provide it.

No one in a business should make X% more than the lowest wage earner.

Workers with families should have more time off than those who are single.

And again - just a few examples and I talk to 10-20 of these people A WEEK. :zoinks:[/b][/quote]
The only one in there I agree with is the healthcare.

And I know it makes me a commy. ;) But I do think in the richest country in the world, people should be able to get reasonable quality healthcare at any time.

The rest of that stuff is retarded though. ;)

as i have said a few times here, i think it is the difference in being left or right brain dominant. some people use both hemispheres equally.

how can two people look at the same issue and see totally different things?

how can two people look at this picture, see totally different things? because the evidence is there to show that both people can see two totally different things and be 100% correct

http://www.exploratorium.edu/xref/ex...young_girl.gif

But why should someone else pay for it? :o Why should there be laws that say I have to pay for my employee's health insurance? And if I have to, then where are the laws that say my employees have to take care of their own health by not over eating, smoking, etc.?

Top notch healthcare is available to every citizen AND illegal alien in the US. There are laws which prevent ANYONE standing on US soil to be denied life saving medical treatment.

However, go to a public hospital some night and see the people sitting in the ER waiting room with minor problems. It will cost a minimum of $400 to the taxpayers when the patient could have gone to a clinic for $15. But the ER is free, so they go there. I have no pity for those people, sorry. :(

Exactly my point, Peaches...

These people BELIEVE in these thoughts....it is their philosophy of life....and it's not just some trailer-trash, welfare-skimming, peons....this thinking was born in academia, not the pub...

Read the "history" of the Twentieth Century Motor Company. It follows these "ideas" to their logical and inevitable conclusion. :wnw:

IMHO, liberals tend to be better educated and have a better sense of all the wonderful possibilities "the government" could provide to the needy to make life better for everyone. A separate class of "liberals" are the uneducated poor who have a well-developed sense of entitlement to government assistance.

Conservatives tend to be more pragmatic. Their first question is usually, "How are we going to pay for it?". Conservatives generally believe a person's lot in life is determined by their own actions, and are unwilling to pay to subsidize personal choices that do not reflect their own work-ethic.

I agree with you Peaches that people tend to become more "pragmatic" as they get older.

But why should someone else pay for it? :o Why should there be laws that say I have to pay for my employee's health insurance? And if I have to, then where are the laws that say my employees have to take care of their own health by not over eating, smoking, etc.?

Top notch healthcare is available to every citizen AND illegal alien in the US. There are laws which prevent ANYONE standing on US soil to be denied life saving medical treatment.

However, go to a public hospital some night and see the people sitting in the ER waiting room with minor problems. It will cost a minimum of $400 to the taxpayers when the patient could have gone to a clinic for $15. But the ER is free, so they go there. I have no pity for those people, sorry. :([/b][/quote]
The only thing I will say is that having life saving treatment guaranteed for free is great, but sometimes the preventative stuff would save more money in the long run.

I know it would be abused, and I'm not totally certain I would actually support a national healthcare plan. It's just the one thing on your list I agreed with at all in any way. ;) Perhaps I should have said that initially instead of what I did.

This doesn't sound like George Bush to me. How much is he spending on this war again?

I think you have the wrong labels here. You should be saying right wing or left wing or moderate, conservative/liberal are social perspectives only.

I'm right wing from having gone through some REALLY REALLY tough times and pulling myself out of it by my own hard work, and at the same time watching lazy suckers just lay around and suck off the system while complaining that they don't get enough help.

Not only that but how often do you hear of a right-wing artist?

Why aren't conservatives creative? And no, I'm not talking about creative accounting.





Last edited by Joe Sixpack at Dec 1 2003, 02:06 PM

This doesn't sound like George Bush to me. How much is he spending on this war again?[/b][/quote]
Conservative politicians are generally willing to pay BIG bucks for what they consider legitimate functions of government....things like defense spending, military, and law enforcement.

In a reversal of the usual roles, it is now the liberals who ask, "How are we going to pay for this...."???

fiddy political schools of thought.............

You god damn filthy communist, obviously you have never heard our Attorney General rock the fucking neocon box nigga.

http://www.donweeks.com/donweeks/clips/200...02/ASHCROF1.mp3

Let the Eagle Fly.

Republican or neocon art, ahahaha.

I always love to listen to the confused porn sheep bleat about their love for conservative thought. The same ideology that seeks their very destruction, try and figure that one out. Its like a Third Reich loving Jew who loves Hitlers policy on the environment. I dont give a fuck what Bush and the rest of his corporate xtian Taliban cabinet think on issues I might even remotely agree with, you want to rid the country of how I make my living? Piss off.

You've never heard people clamor for minimum wage increases so the poor people can do better?[/b][/quote]

Where in that did you read I have never heard anyone ask for raising the minimum wage? To 1000 an hour? No, I have heard some absurd shit in my day, but nothing quite that stupid. I was not even aware that minimum wage debate was just a lefty issue. Henry Ford figured out long ago that by paying your employees more, you could get them to work longer and consume more... which I thought was a good thing in a capitalist society.

Yeah, keep your people poor and then complain they dont spend any money. Sounds like some radical lefty theory to me. Buff is funny.

You god damn filthy communist, obviously you have never heard our Attorney General rock the fucking neocon box nigga.

http://www.donweeks.com/donweeks/clips/200...02/ASHCROF1.mp3

Let the Eagle Fly.

Republican or neocon art, ahahaha.[/b][/quote]
That is absolutely fucking hilarious.

He'd be a hit at an over 50's karaoke night.

Where in that did you read I have never heard anyone ask for raising the minimum wage? To 1000 an hour? No, I have heard some absurd shit in my day, but nothing quite that stupid. I was not even aware that minimum wage debate was just a lefty issue. Henry Ford figured out long ago that by paying your employees more, you could get them to work longer and consume more... which I thought was a good thing in a capitalist society.

Yeah, keep your people poor and then complain they dont spend any money. Sounds like some radical lefty theory to me. Buff is funny.[/b][/quote]
The $1000/hour was probably an exageration.

Raising the wages for *your* workers may be great. Raising the national minimum wage does nothing for anybody.

Any examples of "conservative" thought being bleated you can quote? I'm curious as to how they are defining "conservative" thought in academia these days....

Be back after dinner!

LadyLaw is that what they teach in Law schools these days??

cuz i heard that exact same response last night when i asked a friend why most lawyers are Liberals / Dems

Where in that did you read I have never heard anyone ask for raising the minimum wage? To 1000 an hour? No, I have heard some absurd shit in my day, but nothing quite that stupid. I was not even aware that minimum wage debate was just a lefty issue. Henry Ford figured out long ago that by paying your employees more, you could get them to work longer and consume more... which I thought was a good thing in a capitalist society.

Yeah, keep your people poor and then complain they dont spend any money. Sounds like some radical lefty theory to me. Buff is funny.[/b][/quote]
So now it behooves business to increase its costs by paying greater than the market wage for labor.

Brilliant economic theory you have there, Keynes. Any other ignorance you want to share with us?

My theory? I just said what Ford did that flies in the face of what the brilliant porn actor economist Buff claims. Problem with it? Hash it out with Hank.

Why, under the burden of such a brilliant mind, do you insist on working for pennies banging prostitutes? Surely you should be working for Rand er somethin.

My theory? I just said what Ford did that flies in the face of what the brilliant porn actor economist Buff claims. Problem with it? Hash it out with Hank.

Why, under the burden of such a brilliant mind, do you insist on working for pennies banging prostitutes? Surely you should be working for Rand er somethin.[/b][/quote]
You mean like study sociology at a leftist shithole university?

Nah, I have other plans.

I'm not sure which is more idiotic - [labert]'s assertion that there are no "thinking" conservatives or Buffy's $1000 an hour minimum wage statement. Granted, the Anne Coulters of today aren't worthy of sharpening the pencils of a Wm. F. Buckley, but there are just as many - or, more correctly, just as few - thinking conservatives as there are liberals. And sheep bleating is sheep bleating ... whether it's the born again crowd or the perpetual (as opposed to the professional) academics.

Peaches - I heard that. After I have my geritol, I may think of a witty retort, if I can think of one that won't piss off your lovers, Gonzo and Confucy. :D

I'm from a mixed home - one New Deal Democrat White Trash Baptist and a moderate Republican German Catholic. Not so strangely enough, the majority of the White Trash side of the family has become Republican; the German side is split pretty much down the middle between what Torone would call RINO (McCain style Republicans) and Democrats.

The main thing that casued me to go further left was civil rights.

While the crackers and their fellow travellers like to talk about the 130+ years since the end of slavery, I am old enough to remember folks, many of them veterans of the U.S. military, getting killed for wanting to vote or the right to get food poisoning from a dime store lunch counter. I am old enough to remember terrorists blowing up churches and murdering people with the protection, if not support and cooperation, of a number of state governments, and sometimes even the FBI. I am old enough to remember watching scumbags like Bull Connor send police dogs and fire hoses on school children.

The more I listened to the blatant racism of my grandfather, and the convoluted semilogic of my father (who tried to put a wrapper on his racism so that it didn't sound like grandpop) - the more I began to drift left.

DJ - in the abstract, I tend to agree with you and Marie Antoinette. As a pratical matter, however, it's never worked.

Well, I can't say my method has ever really been tried. :)

However, I would tend to agree with you. The same human nature that makes communism a failure would make my ideal philosophy a failure also. Like most things, what works is somewhere in the middle...

Still waiting for the conservative sheep bleating quotes. As it typical, rhetoric above substance....but then, that's the plan, anyway...

If I was a smartass, Jim, I'd suggest you look at any post by Torone and a couple of others ... it's often as predictable as the dolls you pull the string to get them to talk. One easy way to tell is the frequency with which the find a way to work Clinton into the conversation.

I don't think conservatives bleat any more than liberals do. Hell, I may get kicked out of the Liberal's club just for admitting that liberals are just as likely to bleat as conservatives are.



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Dec 1 2003, 10:52 PM

Of course how you are raised and what your parents' political affiliations are is going to be a huge factor, but I think the biggest factor in determining someone's political beliefs is experience.

In my experience, sitting in a class talking about the wonders of welfare, free health care, and poor people is quite different than being in the trenches actually counseling those people from week to week and seeing how they do their damndest to use and abuse the system.

Being "poor" and turning around one day to find that you're "comfortable" is an eye-opener as well, especially when you take a look at your check and see how much of it is being ripped away from you to pay for those same system abusers you were counseling a couple of years before.

Experience is what you gain as you grow older, which is why *I* think that most people grow more conservative as they grow older. They lose the ideallic dream of how good society could be "if only"... and experience the truth of how the majority of people are lazy and will cheat at the slightest opportunity, exploit something until it's gone all just for a handout that they don't have to work for.

You start seeing how the people busting their asses day in and day out are being punished, while the people sitting back collecting your tax dollars that you worked for are being rewarded more and more for their refusal to get off of their duffs and take responsibility for themselves.

Have you been working in different trenches than I have?

While I know there is fraud in the system, I've personally worked with a lot of people who've ran into hard times, I'm met a LOT who simply need a little help getting back on their feet and are trying their damnedest to do it...I've also had to deal with a lot of people with various mental disorders (not including myself ;-)) and these are the people who are forgotten when we talk about welfare and medical handouts...for every "able bodied" person mooching off the system, I can find equal numbers or even more who suffer from various mental problems...

While I don't believe in cradle to grave handouts, I see no societal problem with helping our less fortunate..many many of whom just need a little help once in awhile, especially if they are faced with mental problems which have a lot to do with things like the ability to hold a job or even a conversation.

Having spent a lot of time helping out in homeless shelters, I've come across people who've lost their homes and have problems getting back on their feet (hard to get a job without a phone and an address).

It's easy to say "well, they made a choice, now live with it" but should someone lose thier whole life over a mistake? Once beyond that point, they might just need a simple handup and are more than happy to work for it.

Isn't it ironic than Ronald Reagen cut spending on mental health programs and now suffers from alzheimers?

as for my nurturing, my mother isn't very politcal at all but is pretty mucha liberal, help your fello man type of person and my father went into Vietnam a red, white and blue conservative loe it or leave it type guy and came out a very changed man and very liberal but the last decade or so hasn't really voted along any party line...

It's a matter of intelligence and education. Someone further down tried to make the point that most universities are liberal; therefore Liberals are better educated. Sorry, that's NOT education, it's indoctrination...most of the people coming out of those places cannot read, write, or spell above jr. high school levels.

Think about the way Libs want to do things...read up enough to see what their agenda is. I have. I also was watching when Kruschev was shouting, "We'll bury you!". The USSR is dead; but the philosophy lives on...China, Viet Nam, France, Berkely, the DNC, etc.

My point is that Conservatives look at things logically; and Libs look emotionally. The aforementioned philosophy fits their way of doing things to a "T". Problem is, countries trying it are doomed. It sounds great; but sooner or later, there is no one left to pay the bills. Then, if the country can't coerce money out of other countries, the same thing happens that happened to the USSR.



Last edited by Torone at Dec 2 2003, 07:13 AM

Jesus, what a load of horse shit. What never fails to amaze me is those of you who have never even attended any secondary education like to incessantly comment about what it is, what it requires, and what it produces.

France, Berkely, and the DNC are "communist"? Holy shit, turn off Fox news for a day.

Ahh yes, the icing on your mongoloid cupcake... "conservatives look at things logically". Hillbilly logic perhaps. Wrong, conservatives are largerly uneducated reactionary idealogues. Conservatives love the silver bullet approach to problem solving. I am neck deep in studying the penal harm movement right now, and it is a glowing example of "conservative logic". And as a result, we now incarcerate more of our own citizens than any other nation in the world. California alone incarcerates more people than all of Europe's prisons combined. We now incarcerate more people per 100k of population than the Soviet Union did. And we liberated the people of Iraq? But I digress. Conservatives love mandatory minimums, 3 strikes laws, penal harm, elimination of parole, etc etc. And as a result the land of the free now holds the dubious position of kings of global incarceration. That is conservative logic in action.

You will try and argue that the war on porn by Ashcroft is a result of a "logical" conclusion? Please do, I want to hear it.

Humor me and show me the countries that have attempted true communism as Marx outlined. There are no true communist countries, never have been. Typical reactionary hillbilly rhetoric. People attempting communism were viewed as such a threat to the United States that we spent the better part of the 20th century attempting to crush it wherever it reared its ugly ugly head. Sorta kinda hard to flourish with the United States trying to kick your ass wherever the people rise up. Why did the US feel communism was such a threat? Put down the Coulter and step away from the tv slowly. I am amazed any country that deviates from true unfettered American style capitalism manages to feed its people.

How do all these socialist countries around the world do it? After all, socialism is merely the intermediate between communism and capitalism.



Last edited by [Labret] at Dec 2 2003, 06:33 AM

Torone,

The conservatives, and by that I mean the Republicans you support, are just as prone to indoctrination and socialism as the Dems.

The difference is, they more reflect your individual ideology.

There are folks on both sides that think logically and/or emotionally.

Thankfully, the purposely frustrating, two-party system that we have helps to keep things in check!

We now incarcerate more people per 100k of population than the Soviet Union ever did.
***********************************

are you naive or just poorly educated???
You have NO IDEA what you are talking about, son.

Yeah, my apologies, I will make sure and tell my professor, who has spent the last 40 years working in corrections and developing correctional policy for the federal government, that his stats are indeed.... wrong.

A retired russian click broker says so.

Yeah, my apologies, I will make sure and tell my professor, who has spent the last 40 years working in corrections and developing correctional policy for the federal government, that his stats are indeed.... wrong.

A retired russian click broker says so.[/b][/quote]
and he wouldn't be the FIRST proffessor who is wrong, or do you eat from the palm of the hand of stas giving you by "academia"?

please tell him that Serge says that he is full of shit and invite him over...
he won't be the first professor I beaten up with facts also.

And you think WE'RE the sheep? :unsure:

While I do agree with you that we have too many people sitting in jail who have committed victimless crimes, to believe every thing ANYONE tells you isn't very smart. :(

I would love to hear your solution.

What do you do with people who are repeat offenders, especially for violent crimes?

Send em to Australia ? :unsure:
















:yowsa:

Again, I am not quite sure what you uneducated folk think happens when you walk through those doors, but as the article you posted on neocon think tanks so eloquently stated, academia has checks and balances. You dont become a phd and a leader in your field by just making shit up. The entire process is nothing but defending yourself from nonstop attacks on your theories or arguments. Trust me my dearest Serge, if someone tries to spit out bullshit statistics or crackpot science, someone will be there to ram it up their ass, THAT is what academia is in a nutshell. A bunch of nerds doing their best to discredit and destroy someone elses lifes work. Checks and balances.

So in light of that, do I accept the findings of someone who has spent the better part of his life fighting his way to the top of the academic food chain on some statistics as trivial as rates of Soviet imprisonment per 100k of population? Yeah, I do. Like I said, if he was lying, someone would be there to point it out, and they wouldnt do it nicely.

This reminds me of the time Buff claimed to have destroyed Noam Chomsky in an email debate, god thats funny.

And you think WE'RE the sheep? :unsure:

While I do agree with you that we have too many people sitting in jail who have committed victimless crimes, to believe every thing ANYONE tells you isn't very smart. :([/b][/quote]

Your post is answered above.

I guess it just depends on your priorities. Some people trust the President... when it comes to something as trivial as ROI stats provided by someone who is considered a leader in the field, yeah, I am not going to shit my pants and demand sources. I suspect in his 40 years of thesis defense that he has earned his stripes. I dont expect you to understand the process.

From this point on I will require sources from you, I dont want to believe that you have accepted anything anyone has had to say at face value without the proper due diligence.



Last edited by [Labret] at Dec 2 2003, 07:02 AM

Hey Labret, I find some of the things you post interesting, although I am certain we probably disagree on much.

I am curious, though... You spoke about leaving the US because of the consumer indoctrination (among others I suppose) and the course the country is on.

Where would you go?

If you think for one minute that "facts" aren't created in academia, you're kidding yourself. My brother just left his post doctorate "position" (I put that in quotes because it only paid $35K a year and HE was responsible for the almost 100 hours he put into filling out the paperwork for his grant request which paid that $35K) at Duke in genetics because of what he saw once he reached the "lofty levels". And he was dealing with MEDICAL studies which were fudged. If you think the same can't be done by a teacher dealing with prison populations, you truly aren't as smart as you think you are. Again, I would never trust ONE PERSON as a source for any information. :(

BTW, no, I don't have a college degree (went two years but then got married and became a housewife) but I'm the ONLY one in my family for 4 generations who doesn't have a degree and most have masters and/or PhD's. I've been around "educated" people all my life and I can assure you, there's a lot to be said for plain common sense and not everyone who's formally educated, has it. :awinky:

I would love to hear your solution.

What do you do with people who are repeat offenders, especially for violent crimes?[/b][/quote]
I second this ......



.... and the answer may be one of the few things you and I agree on Labret

so, IOW, you just take without questioning ANYTHING delivered to you on the platter...
and you call yourself "rebe"? Independent Thinker?
Labret, THINK of what you are posting, look at the mirror and come to the logical conclusion
;l-)))

you just worship the different Gods,
you are a "true beleiver" and you have no questioning bone in your body
;_)))


...and his statistic IS wrong!