homegrownmof,

Don't ever give Serge credit for anything. He'll remember it and use it against you whenever he has a chance ;)

Thanks for the good words, but I'm certainly no attorney. I understand and appreciate the arguement "what about the next company that comes knocking".

I can tell you that Hustler and Vivid do not make a policy of settling lawsuits. If other companies think that this means they are easy targets, they are sadly mistaken. Any future lawsuits will be dealt with on a case by case basis on their own merits.

You know that Hustler was sued a long time ago. They did not just settle quickly. That might be the perception, but that is not what happened.

Actually, since I have made money with and for Steve H and Larry H whether or not you take me seriously or not matters very little.

Regarding CE, yes we work with them, but their settlement does not seem to cover us now does it?

This is not about ego, and this is not emotional. This is business. I think our debate on the subject presents a healthy discourse and that is good for business too.

We are both entitled our opinions and the manner in which we choose to run our respective businesses.

Time for me to bow out..



Last edited by Far-L at Oct 6 2003, 07:36 PM

I agree that a healthy debate is a good thing. But offering to send all of the "carpetbaggers" to my door was personal. You act as if I simply advised all of my client to settle and it was so.

I find it a little hypocritical that you chose to question Steve and Larry's decision making ability because they chose to use our services when your own site runs through someone elses affiliate program. I find it even more hypocritical that you think we "ran from the battle field", but you are still partners with another company who settled. Maybe your site is not protected, but it certainly benefits from all the traffic that goes through the CE program, doesn't it?

If you are that committed to this cause, why not terminate your partnership with CE since they settled? Just curious as to why you've had a lot more to say about Hustler and Vivid than you did about CE?

Ken - thanks for clarifying that statement.

Just so everyone is clear, you can NOT double dip in patent lawsuits. You can't collect damages from infridgers and conducer(s). You may only collect ONE set of damages (from any of the parties), you don't get paid more than once for reasonable fees. Therefore, there should have been virtually NO negotiations on your part to get Acacia to indemnify YOUR affiliates for the traffic they send to Vivid / Hustler since you are now in compliance with their patent (in the form of a license). If there is no patent infridgement (since you have a license) then obviously there is no conducing of infridgement. This really isn't big news. If I signed a settlement all my webmasters would be protected as well since there would no patent infridgement since I am now a licensed party.

Whenever a bully arises someone must confront them and beat them down. ARS is committed to invalidating this patent. Some can argue the best business decision is to settle (it could obviously be cheaper) but I choose not to let this be a precedent for anyone else to beckon my door or this industries door again.

Ken: I don't mean any offense and I think you are taking it much too personally.

You are not a hypocrite in the least, nor am I.

You had little to nothing to do with Hustler and Vivid settling. I don't blame you or challenge your business decision in the matter. What I took issue with I was very specific regarding here and at GFY.

I think Steve and Larry made good decisions to go with you. They had mixed success running internet operations previously and so that represented smart business on their part. I don't deny them or you your geniuses and talents in business and I applaud your successes.

I don't have a problem with you settling. I just have a problem with the way you spun it in your announcement.

I am not at liberty to discuss my arrangements with CE. Perhaps you would like to ask Ron directly about what he thinks of us, how much traffic CE is sending, how things are going these days and what is in store for the future.

Marc,

While what you said makes perfect sense, I don't think that is always 100% true. I'm going to get clarification on this issue because I know it was not in the original agreement. I personally asked for it to be added and there was a lot of back and fourth about it. I'm not an attorney, so you very well could be right.

Either way, it's really a non-issue I suppose. Our intention was not and is not to "scare" affiliates into using our programs. Hopefully they will use them for other reasons!

Fair enough.....no offense taken. I think we've both made our points.

I absolutely wish you guys the best in your effots and would like to chat sometime soon about us financially participating in your future efforts through the IMPA.

Ken - I'm no lawyer either but I think its a hard case to file against affiliates of a program that are in compliance with a license attempting to prove they are conducing the infridgement of a patent that not being infridged upon. What a mouthful.

*thinking out loud* It might be a good idea for me to sponsor a 1 hour radio show, question and answer with my IP lawyer. It would be nice for all these webmasters currently without counsel to hear some 'opinions' from a qualified lawyer. Education can only help the industry... Something I know 'someone' is afraid of. Fortunately we're not a bunch of uneducated, weak willed, wanna-be-businessmen as 'someone' may have initially thought :D

Marc, lets talk tommorow - I think we should be able to help you arrange this.

Far-L... I think you definitely are a hypocrite on this issue... I called you on your silence over R-n settling.. and you were just fine with it!

In fact You and a tide of other people wanted to shout me down when I said R-n had shafted you and now everyone else would be forced into the position of having to settle... Why didn't you complain about CE settling like you are about Ken?? Money involved for you was it?? Business decision to shut up that time maybe?

I am sure your initial intentions were good and i applauded you at the start.. but you corrupted your entire effort imho when you wimped out on calling R-n out for the backstabbing scumbag he was.

Why didn't you attack the real person who ruined your chances of putting up a proper bi-partisan industry fight? R-n Shafted your fighting fund when it mattered... YOU didnt want to bitch about that then for your own reasons....... it looks like these guys made a smart business decision that had to be made to me...

The companies with something to protect will all be forced to settle now imho.... I predict many of us wont be sending traffic to those that dont settle by the end of this year.. will be too dangerous.. why would I want to risk being taken out for sending traffic to ARS once Acacia is finished this round and starts attacking all the non-compliant program's traffic sources?

Sorry Marc.. but unless you know something special I can't see you being able to stick to this line of "fight till the death" for long.

Acacia simply divided and conquered... it's over... move on and make sure we dont let it happen next time... I cant wait until R-n starts attempting his version of "VoiceAcacia" .. will you have a fighting fund against that one too Far-L?

Opti - again, Acacia can sue everyone they want but IF (that is one big if) they win, they'll only get ONE settlement, not multiple. You can assume what you like... Affiliates should not be scared to do business with anyone, including companies that have not settled.

Far-L's defense fund took a hit when Ron settled? How is that? I also fail to see how Acacia divided and conquered? CE / Hustler / Vivid do NOT make up a huge portion of this industry... The signing of those 3 companies truthfully doesn't mean much of anything to me or my will to invalidate this patent or defend myself. The good news is I know I'm not alone.

Damn!!!

All I can say , is I now understand how/why Marc De has reached the position he has in this biz.

I am very very impressed. :)

:inlove:

MikeAI,

I disagree. Sykkboy said several things that are simply not true.

1. We never claimed that our settling would help the industry as a whole. I honestly doubt it won't effect it one way or the other. There are much larger threats to the industry than Acacia.

2. We never claimed this was done out of the goodness of our hearts

3. We did say over and over that this was the best choice for Hustler and Vivid, which is true. Part of running a successful business is making sound business decisions. They made the decision that they thought was best for their respective businesses.

4. It remains to be seen whether it will be better for our webmasters, but it certainly is not worse. They can rest assured that they will not be financially harmed by this issue with regard to the business they do with us. Hustler and Vivid have simply ensured that they will be able to continue paying webmasters a heafty comission now and into future.

I understand his point.....but in this case, if you look at the statements made, nothing he said is all that accurate.[/b][/quote]
Ken, I didn't mean any personal opffense and my post was simply my feelings on the subject.

You know that I respect you more than just about anyone else in this business. The underlying theme to your post and from what I've seen posted from CE was "well, we settled with them but here's what we did for you".

While I understand why Steve and Larry did what was in their best interests and in their spot, I would have done the same thing, I simply see the section I interpret as "look at what we're doing for our affiliates", when this was based on a business decision and not a "we love our affiliates, look at what we've done decision".

I simply felt we were being "spun". Who wouldn't agree to pay $1500 or whatever small fee to ACACIA over spenidng hundreds of thiousands on a drawn out legal battle? I sure as fuck would, but I wouldn't spin it as if I were doing it for my affiliates. That was my point.

This post wasn't all 100% at you either, it was an amalgam of frustration over what's happening in this industry.

You have to udnerstand, every day we seem to be told how much companies are doing for this industry and how they do it out of the goodness of their heart. Just tell it straight, it's a business decision, it'll make Company X this much more money. Just be honest, don't spin us, we've seen it all before.

Again, that's not directed at you personally, just everyone in general who makes a business decision and acts like they are being some sort of savior.

Sorry for not replying sooner, it's my wedding anniversary, so went out for awhile.

SykkBoy,

Thanks man....I knew it wasn't personal. I understand your frustration and feelings on the subject.

Most businesses do make decisions based on what is best for their them and that is what Hustler and Vivid did. However, those decisions, in my opinion will have a positive impact on their affiliates over the long term.

Look at it this way. If they made a bad decision and were financially impacted by it, they might need to pass on the financial impact to affiliates in the form of lower payouts. By settling, they have taken the risk factor away from their affiliates in terms of their potential liability and in terms of possibly having to lower payouts, etc.

Affiliates are a very important part of their business, therefore it IS in theirr best interest to protect them and look after their best interests. Did they make the decision to settle just to help their affiliates? Or course not. But I do think they will benefit from this in the long run.

Now get back to your wife and Happy Anniversary! ;)

It's all IFs.. ie: IF Acacia send me a notice threatening me if I send traffic to ARS what will I do... You or Far-L and every lawyer in the land can tell me they wont win... but will I still be sending traffic to ARS or maybe switching to CE or Hustler? That's the reality of the what will happen.

IFs are what is causing our downfall.. Acacia play the game of IFs far better than our industry has so far..

We are here to make money... lets cut a deal... make money and let the likes of the recording industry fight this if they want... I'm not here to save the world.. just make some cash. imho adult failed to stand together and has already lost this fight. Add it to your list of bottom line costs.. pass it on and lets go forward! Our industry has the first opportunity to cut a deal with Acacia... even if they dont get our market segment they will go for another one... and then we wont be in bargaining position any longer.

As far as those companies proving to be enough of a foot in the door to break the industry resolve.. Maybe I underestimate the ulturism of our industry "leaders".. but once Acacia start scaring the traffic away we will find out for sure.

Persoanlly, I think CE was a major turning point no matter how much $$ they turn over compared to other majors. They shifted opinion and made sure most webmasters wont trust ANY company on this issue..

btw Marc.. you get my highest respect for standing by what you believe in.. but dont get left holding the baton alone :\

Opti - I appreciate your take on this. I can say IF Acacia threatened affiliates sending traffic to 'certain' programs including ARS with a law suit you can bet they would be served as well. I have no problem fighting fire with fire :)

There still is a great group of companies besides ARS who are not standing down on this. I'm not alone and I doubt ever will be!

I also reflect back to my comment on education. There is a lot of educating that needs to take place so smaller affiliates aren't 'scared' of Acacia. The more educated we are the better decisions we'll make.

This is cut and dried a business decision.

What they want to do is safeguard themselves and not spend money fighting the cause. While they hope others who are fighting the cause and paying for it win, so they will no longer have to pay for the licenses.

Seems very clear.

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that Acacia was counting on this to go exactly as it is right now and that they are stronger for each "licensing agreement" they sign.... and settling with them while may be in the interests of the companies that do so, its definately not in the interest of anyone else in this business. in fact, trying to spin it as a positive thing is both insulting and offensive and is a little like making and selling ammunition to the army that is attacking you and saying "we just sell lead and gun powder while creating jobs and growing the economy, nothing more"

Lets not forget the possible negative costs industry wide of these "settlements" and how they come at the expense of everyone who has an interest in fighting and who knows who else.

why?

I have no problems posting ALL the contracts I EVER made in this life,
business and personal, including all real estate transactions, divorce decrees, traffic brokering, my cemetery plot terms, etc, etc, etc....

I am a shaver and a goat fucker, of course, but I don't mind even posting my contract with a Devil!

and to pre-empty your argument about:
"you are piece of shit with no $$$ to compare with LF and Vivid",
I can bet YOU the same million I bet Marc that the value of all my contracts I made over the life time is bigger than the $$ value of the contract between Acacia and the interests you represent....

Here is your chance to grab a mil without writing one single line of code
;-))))))

People should be required to write a line of code before they make $200 million/year.

My bet is on the europeans and russians - they have shown excellent survival skills thru history, and they are not threaten by all of these US lawsuites.

Acacia´s "posterboy campaign" continues, and I was a bit disappointed to see yet more big names beg for mercy from Acacia... Just go to show you that most who "get big" did not take a journey "full of glory" and "kicking ass", which can be made into a Hollywood movie, but rather a journey which was "full of compromises" and "kissing ass".

Uncompromising people are rare, and I admire them, since they are the ones who will truly "be there" regardless of what comes their way...

My bet is on the europeans and russians - they have shown excellent survival skills thru history, and they are not threaten by all of these US lawsuites.

Acacia´s "posterboy campaign" continues, and I was a bit disappointed to see yet more big names beg for mercy from Acacia... Just go to show you that most who "get big" did not take a journey "full of glory" and "kicking ass", which can be made into a Hollywood movie, but rather a journey which was "full of compromises" and "kissing ass".

Uncompromising people are rare, and I admire them, since they are the ones who will truly "be there" regardless of what comes their way...[/b][/quote]
Funny you say that...
Larry Flynt made it all the way to Hollywood being "uncompromised"....
but...
I guess money and compromises come and go and are subject of age
;-)))

People should be required to write a line of code before they make $200 million/year.[/b][/quote]
why do you say that?

I don't follow the drift, it's early in the morning and I haven't had my coffee yet
;-)

MarcDE,
I know you good for your money and therefore I offer you a friendly bet...

I bet you $1,000,000 US thta you'll never see those contracts posted on the boards....the parties will claim "confidentiality clauses".

Give me the number of your escrow agent and I'll wire up the funds if you accept the bet...[/b][/quote]
there's escrow companies that facilitate illegal betting? =)

this is NOT an Illegal Betting,
this is just a FRIENDLY BET!
;-)))

It's no wonder that the EEC Parliment is thinking long and hard about Software Patents. What will Acacia do to companies working in Europe, will the "licensed" companies insist only those with the license can sell videos?

And as for the argument of settling and moving on until someone else brings this down for us. That is what those who have signed up are hoping. They do not want to spend the money fighting, they want someone else to do and pay for it, then they can carry on as before having paid out nothing. What would be their reaction if they knew that they could not sell videos IF Acacia lost. Nice when you can play both sides with immunity.

I think this has been a test of integrity and some have come out badly.

If you think these patents are solid, then come out and tell us what reasearch was done to reach that decision and the results. There is some confusion over whether the lawyers know if "Double Dipping" is allowed in patent cases. Maybe it's not and therefore is not required to be in a license, or can be put in very easily. Or "Double"Dipping" is legal and a concession was gained.

Or was this just a commercial decision, which was carried out by the Accountants and not the legal department. They would look simply at bottom line and little else.

It will cost xzy to fight
It will cost xyz to settle
Can we still sell videos if Acacia lose?
Can we sell videos if they win?

Morals, ethics and reputation do not show up on a balance sheet.

pearl!! :)

d i t t o!

And for me , a new mantra :)

Morning Serge :)

I sleep little , do you sleep at all? ;)

I sleep alot!

I sleep with my wife, her girlfriend, my friend, her friend and few hitchhikers....

c'mon, Nick, we all know that sleep is for the weak ones
;-)))

Damn! Keeps you out of mischief I guess ;-))

I hear the :
1.) just
2.) content
3.) the clear of conscience

all sleep well.

Couldn't confirm this , myself , however. ;-))

spanno,
only insolvent person like you would make a bet like you did...what a pity...or was it intended to be pithy?
;-)))[/b][/quote]
bet you a million dollars my broke ass is worth more than you at 27 you crazy old man :o)

Paul - good post :)

I do not think Acacia will be in Europe anytime soon, and when/if they come to Europe, then they are in for a surprise, since the european legal system(s) doesn´t quit work the same way as in the US. Heck, Acacia do not even have patents in many of the new countries/states joining the EU next year.

If Acacia or any other patent parasite are looking for a real battle, then come to Europe... their whole legal system is build by socialists :rolleyes:

bet you a million dollars my broke ass is worth more than you at 27 you crazy old man :o)[/b][/quote]
hmmm...are you trying to make a bet with 27 years old Serge?
you are 18 years too late...
come back in 50 years....

why?

I have no problems posting ALL the contracts I EVER made in this life,
business and personal, including all real estate transactions, divorce decrees, traffic brokering, my cemetery plot terms, etc, etc, etc....
[/b][/quote]
That's because they're YOUR contracts. This isn't Ken's contract. :)

Opti: You are entitled to your opinion.

I don't remember you "calling me out", but allow me to answer to it now.

Personally, I am not happy about CE settling. The one nice thing about it is how can Acacia claim that I am head of conspiracy to prevent licensing when I cannot even convince our marketing partner not to license?

I have taken quite a bit of abuse about our relationship with CE under the circumstances. It sucks but I am not the kind of person to complain publicly about a partner regardless.

Does that make me a hypocrite?

No, it makes me a solid partner.

Besides, CE is not funding our defense at all, nor does their license apply to us. Ron is not my Daddy and he is not going to come to the rescue.

You think I am a hypocrite? How much have you spent protecting the industry from this type of abuse?

Ulitimately, Ron said the "truth will come out and surprise everyone". I can't wait.... but of course I won't be surprised at all.

That's because they're YOUR contracts. This isn't Ken's contract. :)[/b][/quote]
you right, Peaches....

as a matter of fact,
I took a vitamin E and recalled that I basically did the same thing with sexia.com and Cohen.

and one shouldn't poke other eyes when one has a sore in his mown,
you are 100% right and I withdraw my bet and just sit on the sideline, thanks for letting me to see the light