Explain to me how the U.N. is interfering with America's soverignty, would you?

"We believe these actions to have been taken in error, for we do not accept the use of force as a wise or proper instrument for the settlement of international disputes."

Who said it, when, and why ...

Dwight D. Eisenhower in 1956 regarding the Suez Canal Crisis

PD the UN is trying to interfere with American Soverignity - by telling us we cannot go after Iraq. Of course they cannot stop us, and will not stop us. The United States must do what it can to defend our citizens. The war on terrorism, and those who support them will go on. The UN will continue to try and tie our hands, but Bush understand this - and will not allow it to happen.

Bush is the Soverign leader of the US, he answers only to Congress, US Judicery, and ther American people - not to koffi anniman, or any other goon at the UN.

The UN is a faliure, their policies have always been failures....

Pornodoggy, oil isn't the ONLY issue... but it changes alot of the options on the ground. The current Bush Administration has even admitted this fact. (I saw this on CNN today, less than an hour ago). I don't "rant" about gas guzzling SUVs, I point out that the increased need for oil creates the importance of Arab nations in US policy. SUVs are just a nice "visible" example of the cause... your choices at home does have an effect on the way the world runs. It was my opinion that decreasing demand for oil would have much more positive long term effects than pouring french wine down the drain would.

North Korea has thumbed it nose at the world for over 40 years... How many Americans died in the Korea War (oops, police action... whatever)? Who has weapons of mass destruction? Who is making threats? Who is testing missles with range to reach America?

What's the difference?

Alex

Mike, sorry, but I have to disagree - Iraq isn't an issue of terror on America, heck, Bin Ladin even called Saddam an infidel phony. The link to terrorism was only thrown in at the end to try to create justification for action...

The only proof of terrorists in Iraq wasn't any stronger than the point that there were terrorists living in Buffalo, NY... should an air strike be launched to out the mayor on Buffalo to get rid of the terrorists?

Go back and read the process from the start... terrorism has had nothing to do with this up until the UN members started to say no. Until then, it wasn't even touched on. There are way more terrorists in Pakistan, in Sudan, in Yemen. Why Iraq first?

Alex

So lemme see if I understand you correctly. The UN is "interfering with our soverignty" by "interfering" with our attempt to violate the soverignty of Iraq????? Not following you at all ... it only makes sense if you force it into a preexisting "ugh ... UN SUCKS" mentality.

Not questioning the need to stop Saddam and remove his weapons of mass destruction, Mike. I don't need a lecture on who Bush answers to, either. Trust me, I've heard all this happy horseshit before. I had an Uncle who was a John Bircher in the 50s and 60s. It was lame then, and is even more pathetic now.

Yeah it's all "amateur psychology" here Pornodoggy. Is that the best you can do? If we're talking amateurs here, I'm quite certain every one of your opinions ranks as just that. Unless I missed something regarding your qualifications to debate this being any more extensive than the rest of us.

I won't comment on the rest of your stuff, because I didn't bother to read it. Why should I? Apparently the new thing from you is disregarding everything that is posted by an "amateur" on this board, and your posts certainly qualify for that, just like the rest of us.

I like this thread...and I hate this thread. :zoinks:

Mike, as much as I respect you, I must point out that the 'american ego' is absolutely apparent in this post. (although you DID already say you had a good helping of it...hehe)

The complete lack of acknowledging International Issues/Concerns regarding Iraq is, IMHO, why we see 'anti-American' sentiment.

The UN isn't there to uphold the American constitution or American interest. It's there as a voice for the International World....like 'em or hate 'em. Pretending they don't exist won't change the fact that they are very much a real entity, and deserving of an opinion.

On another note...

The jealous sibling rivalry theory doesn't wash with me. I can't deny that the US is 'the' major power in the world right now...and rightfully so.

HOWEVER, it's more like the 'winning team' is someone like Mike Tyson who doesn't care who he hurts, is self-serving and has a 'fuck you' attitude. You aren't jealous of him, nor do you want to BE him, rather you wish he would change his ways and be more thoughtful and respectful in his dealings, because what he does affects more than just himself.

Colin, with all due respect, if I were Alex, I would also see your question as somewhat 'loaded'. I don't think his apprehension to answer is 'curious', but realistic considering his previous experience....and I don't mean his experiences with YOU per se....just with the overall goings-on in the previous threads.

BTW, I do understand Alex's reference to the difference between being Anti-American and being against US policy.

I saw the same thing on another board where someone was accused of spewing 'anti-semitic garbage' when in fact, he was acknowledging his dislike for Israeli policy and Sharon's dealings with Palestinians.

I love America, and everything she stands for.....however that doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything her government does. :unsure:

Touchy, touchy, touchy ... and while I may have disagreed with what you said, I didn't get petulant and stop reading what you had to say.

You seem to feel that it's all a matter of jealousy - Mike used the sibling rivalry analogy, and I think you were using the sports team scenario. By that way of thinking, you almost give credence to the morons who say it's all just a question of the American bully flexing his muscles and beating up on small brown people he can get to because he's mad - that would be the "either/or" to your analogy. I would dismiss that as amateur psychology, too, and also call it shallow, superficial, muddle-headed thinking. And as far as the term "amateur" goes ... when I read lines like "it is the basic psychology of class envy or in this case country envy" the word amateur does pop into mind. Country envy? Puh-leaze!

Yes ... I'm sure that there are some people all across the world who oppose a war with Iraq just because America is pushing for it. They are stupid. There are people in this country who don't know the difference between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, and think the majority of hijackers were Iraqi. They are stupid too. There are lots of stupid people out there.

IMHO, not everyone who thinks the United States is/may be going down a dangererous path here is some immature nitwit responding in some Freudian/Marxist way to all the wonderful things America has that they don't. If the term "amateur psychology" bothers you, I apologize - you know us liberals, we are always sensetive to other peole's feelings.

Allow me to replace it with "shallow, superficial, muddle-headed thinking."

If that's too many words, try 'BULLSHIT."

i posted this in another thread about "what sports teams do you hate", but i feel it applys here too.
------

dont hate.

except you can hate circus clowns. i hate those fuckers. whats with the big feet, the funny nose and those dumb little cars. scary bastards, jumping around throwing shit and hitting each other with pies and honking those fucking horns? and how did they all get into that little car anyways? those dipshits.

if you are gonna hate... hate clowns. then when the clowns form an NBA team that sucks, you can hate them twice. When the clowns start playing good defense and getting more rebounds, you may have to reconsider though.

"There are way more terrorists in Pakistan, in Sudan, in Yemen. Why Iraq first?"

From a stratigic stand point - I would say because once Iraq is "occupied" it would be very easy to control the entire middle east.

With troops in Afghanastan and Iraq - Iran - part 2 of the "Axis of Evil" is flanked on both sides - would make is rather easy to walk over them as well.

Pakistan - even though they are a nuclear power has their hand full worrying about a billion people in India that would like to remove them as a country.

Saudi Arabia - will fall right into line once Iraq is under US control (and here is where the oil part comes in) because with what is in Iraq the US could turn off the Saudis Cash cow.

This will not end with Iraq - it is the start of a play to control the middle east

:unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

I like this thread...and I hate this thread. :zoinks:

Mike, as much as I respect you, I must point out that the 'american ego' is absolutely apparent in this post. (although you DID already say you had a good helping of it...hehe)

The complete lack of acknowledging International Issues/Concerns regarding Iraq is, IMHO, why we see 'anti-American' sentiment.

The UN isn't there to uphold the American constitution or American interest. It's there as a voice for the International World....like 'em or hate 'em. Pretending they don't exist won't change the fact that they are very much a real entity, and deserving of an opinion.

On another note...

The jealous sibling rivalry theory doesn't wash with me. I can't deny that the US is 'the' major power in the world right now...and rightfully so.

HOWEVER, it's more like the 'winning team' is someone like Mike Tyson who doesn't care who he hurts, is self-serving and has a 'fuck you' attitude. You aren't jealous of him, nor do you want to BE him, rather you wish he would change his ways and be more thoughtful and respectful in his dealings, because what he does affects more than just himself.

Colin, with all due respect, if I were Alex, I would also see your question as somewhat 'loaded'. I don't think his apprehension to answer is 'curious', but realistic considering his previous experience....and I don't mean his experiences with YOU per se....just with the overall goings-on in the previous threads.[/b][/quote]
*applause*
a voice of reason!!!




what a joke of a thread
yet another bunch of (the same) americans ganging up on anyone with an opposing opinion and issuing demands to answer your questions. colin, you are still pushing your original point which is 'alex, i demand you answer my loaded question'.

why would anyone want to answer you when you have posts like mike's & vick's come along?

vick gives us a word for word copy of the book that must be issued at birth to americans ... 'defend america with cliched patriotic statements' and mike pops up with his chest beating act.

Big bad UN isn't looking after poor wittle america and instead its considering the effects on the world?!!?! shit 'eh. wasn't that its purpose? so a country like america can't bully their way into controlling every country of the world? is that why you don't like it mike?

why would ANY foreigner want to post on this board?
answer me THAT question colin, vick, mike and the rest of you who can't seem to accept opinions of others.

*I* even feel unwelcome and overpowered by the american ego that proceeds to squash every other view point or opinion on this board, and I consider this to be my home. The WORST part of these discussions is that you actually manage to convince each other you are being fair and reasonable ... you constantly repeat phrases like 'dont get me wrong i like you personally' in an attempt to make you appear reasonable to each other. Do you think that as long as you say 'i like you' that you can be as ignorant and rude as you like?

if only your board was welcoming to ALL view points you might have some of the foreign LURKERS posting, who currently are too scared to make a comment for fear of the pack of yanks attacking them personally.

way to have a fair discussion guys ... what a great democracy this is!!

oprano, home of the american ego and fuck all else!!
YEAH!!! now lets go blow something up

Don’t' hate the player...

Maybe this is a little more of the "American Ego" but I'll contribute an observation about my trip to Europe in December.

In London I could definitely pick up on the anti-Americanism, it was right underneath the surface. All I had to do was speak with my "American Accent" (we all know they are the ones with the accents) ;). I heard about how:
"Americans are assholes"
"Americans are stupid"
"Americans are brainwashed by CNN"
"George Bush is a scumbag and caused September 11th to happen"

It went on and on... I was constantly amazed at the shit I heard.

I realized that Americans don't spend their days hating other countries. I never hear, "The British are assholes", "Australians are this...", “Japanese are this... ". Sure we like to make fun of our Canadian friends to the north every once in a while, but they know deep down we love them! :)

Why is it that America and America's foreign policy matters so much?
Why is it so "cool" to "hate Americans"?

"The US has the largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world, with a per capita GDP of $36,300. "

That excerpt was taken from the “CIA World Factbook” (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/us.html). How does it go Webfather, "Numbers I trust, people I don't!"?

If another country was the "largest and most technologically powerful economy in the world", we’d all be talking about how much we hate them. It comes down to jealousy.

I'll admit it, if I were not a US Citizen I would be jealous too!



Last edited by KC at Feb 27 2003, 07:22 PM

YEAH!!!!

KC FOR PRESIDENT!!!!


:rokk: :rokk: :wnw: :wnw: :rokk: :rokk:

i am jealous of my own Americanized success :D
and all the non believers are infidels






Last edited by slavdogg at Feb 27 2003, 07:49 PM

You know, I didn't even think of that part of it. Perhaps there are people who assume that people who disagree with American policy have to assume they do so on account of jealousy because that's the kind of petty criteria they would base things on.

Damn. Too many options.

Bravo KC! Well put

CJ - I went back and read the things I posted in this thread - and I sincerely believe in every word I said, it's not propaganda, it's not clichés. For me where I stand today it the honest truth.
It's not in a book handed to you at birth, it's the realizations that come with age and experience

Every nation must do what is best for it's own well being. That's part of the reason the US is having problems with France and the UN. France has decided that it is better for them to support Iraq that to support it's long time ally America. To each their own

"why would ANY foreigner want to post on this board?" - maybe to take the opportunity to share their perspective and get a little positive back in return.
The Oprano community is primarily composed of Americans (and a few are chest beaters like myself) but I'd like to think that even as chest beating American's we are not so dense as to discard another's valid viewpoints, perspectives or experiences just because they do not agree with our concepts


and again please understand how tired we are as American's of all the America bashing that goes on - and that does lead to the fuck all attitude
If the shoe was on the other foot I hope citizens of other nations could take all the flack as well as American's have - especially after everything that America has done positive in the last 2 centuries

LMFAO!!!!

never?
americans never say anything hateful about other countries??

LIES!
HYPOCRICY!

america is the most hateful nation i have had experience with in the western world. your view of yourself is very well jaded!!!

oh that's right, we don't deal in actual facts around here, just the american version.

KC, its obvious from your post that you just skimmed through the thread, and picked a couple of sentences that you could reply with the same old thing ... you have dismissed all views and opinions expressed on this board by latching onto a single point that makes you feel better about the opinions raised about your country. (ie, the jealousy thing)

Have you ever visited my country? I'm FAR from jealous, believe me. The only thing America has that I wish my country had is Junior Mints, but we've got Tim Tams so you really should be jealous of us.


I have free health care
My streets are clean
People don't carry guns
My country folk are loyal and hardworking and friendly
I can flick through 50 cable channels and watch american sitcoms

I received an icq before by a fellow foreigner telling me to chill ... 'they aren't worth worrying about'

This is what those who you scare away with your childish arguments think:


way to go oprano!!!!
KC for president!!!!
YEAH!!!!

:bjump:

France is "supporting" Iraq? France did not oppose the reinsertion of Weapons Inspectors as unnecessary. I don't recall the French taking the position that Saddam is a good guy who should be left alone. France is taking a more cautious approach to the use of military force than the U.S. would like. There's a big difference there.

Maybe the Europeans use a few more words (assholes, stupid, brainwashed) to describe Americans than a lot of Americans use to describe Europeans. All I hear from most circles is "pussy." Well, there's "anti-semitic' from one crowd, and "pansy socialists" from another, but mostly it's just "pussy." Do I detect "vocabulary envy?"

I was in Spain and Portugal in the mid 70s, as both countries were coming out of long periods of facist rule - facist governments supported by the United States during the cold war in exchange for base rights; facist governments very much guilty of all the things we accuse Saddam Hussein of today (now that his facist government is no longer useful to us). It was an interesting and exciting time to be there - watching people experience free elections for the first time in 50 or 60 years can give you a better appreciation for some things you tend to take for granted.

Perhaps things have changed in the 30 years since I was there; I don't know. What I found, however, is that there were a few people who hated me for being American. There were an awful lot more who hated a lot of the actions of my government without hating me.



Last edited by PornoDoggy at Feb 27 2003, 08:30 PM

Actually, if you slow down and re-read, it says we don't spend out days hating other countries! I don't recall saying never. ;)

I haven't yet been fortunate enough to have visited Oz, but I'm excited to visit. I know several Aussies and hear it's a beautiful place!!

Why is it that you watch America sitcoms? The only Aussie TV Shows we get in America are "Crocodile Hunter" and "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here" (Which is a god awful show with has-been American actors, but is in fact based in the Aussie Bush!)

CJ, Don't take it so personally, I consider you an "Honorary American" because you work with so many Americans! When I come visit I'll buy you a pack of Tim Tams and we can get "pissed" drinking Foster's together!!
:stout:

Slavdogg,

We're all jealous of your success. I think you are the epitome of what makes America great!!

haha

No way!! I'm too selfish to run for public office!!!

Yep this is ... for lack of words ... an "amazing" thread. One which pretty much I'm staying out of as there are land mines everywhere.

I do have to say that I am most interested in reading the opinions of the non-Americans here. I am much more interested in seeing us through their eyes than anything else in this thread.

I've also come away with a greater appreciation for Junior Mints that I had previously. B)

Nice to know I ain't so lonely out here... thanks cj, gigi...

The points have all been well made, the comments bang on... the view from inside the US is extremely different from the view outside.

I respect the view from the inside... but I know from what I can see out here that it isn't the common view of the world.

CJ, I live in sort of the same country... relatively clean, health care, not many guns all considered, few murders, safer streets. Commonwealth countries? I don't know if that is the deal... whatever it is, I don't think we have it all that bad.

Alex

i think you guys are all going in circles.


Drav, i agree i've enjoyed reading non-American's views,. I can understand them, but cant say i agree with most of them.

PD, got me thinking..
Alex does sound like a traditional liberal American.
If he'd move to Berkley, he'd fit right in :)

Canada and Australia ARE great places, but, and I ask this in all honesty, if another country decided to take you over by force, do you have the military ability to protect yourselves?

Peaches, you don't piss people off, you don't have to fight too often.

Besides out neighbor to the south ("you knighted stays"), there are very few countries with enough fire power to do us in... China, Russia, the usual offenders... I don't think we have too much to worry about from the Laotian air force, ya know?

US could take us over... the only difference would be less health care, more crime... :-)

Slavdogg, sorry I don't fit in much of anywhere in the political system of the US...

Alex

Everyone always brings up guns. They think America is a dangerous place because of guns.. guns this guns that.

After watching the movie "Bowling for Columbine" I did some research to see what the gun related death rates really were. People constantly bring up how safe Japan is, because there were so few gun related deaths. Statistics can often be skewed in any direction to support almost any argument. Obviously the movie "Bowling for Columbine" took those stats and presented them in a very skewed way.

Suicidal Americans often use a gun in the process of their suicide. So all of those incidents get included in the "Gun related death" stats. Did you know that most Japanese commit suicide with knife into their stomach? (seppuku)

So let's look at a chart that displays "international violent death rates showing gun and non-gun homicide, suicide, and total violent death rates". After all, safety should include all forms of homicide.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

Here are a few highlights:

Country....................... Death Rate per 100,000 people
Austria......................... 23.36
Switzerland................. 22.80
France......................... 22.67
Mexico......................... 21.74
Belgium....................... 20.77
United States.............. 18.57
Japan.......................... 17.34
Sweden....................... 17.12
Germany...................... 17.00
Canada........................ 15.64
Australia....................... 14.65
Israel............................ 9.80

Go look at the whole list.. America hardly looks like such a dangerous place to live!!

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html

yeah you do somewhere between far left and the green party, or both.

very good point KC,

i recently read a new story about Australia.
They banned guns ( not sure in what form )
and their crime death rate remained the same, they just found new ways to commit murder.

Well, yeah, the scrawny 80 pound weakling isn't going to kick sand in too many bully's faces :awinky:

KC, almost any number can be brought up to express a given point. But this list is missing some very important issues...

US murder rate: 6.8 for every 100,000 (1997 number I found on CNN)
In Japan, the United Nations reports the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000 (common number quoted on pro-gun sites).

In other words, you are 6.8 times more likely to get killed in the US than in Japan. You are more likely to commit suicide in Japan, as your numbers show, but it is VERY misleading to combine suicide and crime together to try to show things are just as safe. I am not suicidal (although posting here could cause it... not)... so I am almost 7 times safer living in Japan.

Sorry, but your stats are misleading, combine non-relevant information in an attempt to create false impression.

I mean, imagine: You are more likely to getting murdered in the middle of Idaho then you are in Japan...

Alex

Oh, KC, I went to look, from the same page you used:

United States: Total homicide 5.70 by gun 3.72
Japan: Total homicide 0.62 by gun 0.02 (!)

You are 18600% more likely to get murdered with a gun in the US than you are in Japan.

You are 9 times more likely to get murdered in the US then in Japan.

Idaho murder rate (http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-guncontrol.htm) was 2.9 - so you are still almost 5 times more likely to get murdered in Idaho than in Japan.

Gee, which country is safer?

Alex

The numbers are the numbers!!

Maybe the murder rate is lower because when a Japanese person screws over someone in Japan, They'd rather off themselves and die with honor than get shot for revenge. They're dead either way.

The result is that the surroundings cause suicide (ie: death)! So which is really safer? What about France, it looks like they're killing themselves like it's going out of style.

I don't think I'd want to live in a place that makes my want to commit suicide. ;)

Alex,

Isreal is safer than Canada. Maybe you should move there for "safety sake" ;)

KC, whenyou are 18600% more likely to get murdered by gun in the US, maybe people don't have time to slink off and commit suicide.

Seriously, though, unless you know Japan, you won't realize that their culture is VERY different from American culture. Honor and Cho is much more important to them than you can imagine. The pressure to do well in Japan, to fit in, and to be part of their society is huge... some people don't make it, and take their own lives. It is VERY sad, and their culture doesn't allow for much discussion of this subject. Things are changing, but it is a very slow process.

I love Japan, I would love to live there... it is a beautiful country.

Alex

I would love to visit Japan. I definitely plan on it!

I doubt I'll feel safer walking around the streets in Japan as a tourist than I do walking around about any US town.

Dinner time, I'll check the thread later. :awinky: