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Mike, the war isn't about oil on the surface - but the difference in approaches between someone who might be re-armed one day (Saddam) and someone who is (permed haired leader of North Korea) shows that there is a difference here.
North Korea doesn't have anything about it that is interesting to the US... so no war to remove a dictator with a nuclear bomb. Containment is good for this one. Because the US (and most western countries) are Oil dependant to the max (including for the plastic that made your keyboard), the west ends up at the feet of these countries too often. Most economies would go to shit if a couple of the OPEC members decided to take a week off of producing oil. Already you can see that higher oil prices are having a negative effect (although not as bad as some people predicted when I suggested a small increase in gas taxes a few months back!). There are MAJOR economic reasons to get rid of Saddam and replace him with a UN friendly government. The huge oil reserves could finally be tapped at a reasonable level, maybe bringing Iraq back past 4 million barrels per day, and with development, maybe up to 8 million barrels per day. Considering that OPEC members are currently capped at 24.5 million barrels per day, that would be a HUGE increase in the amount of oil available, which would push down the price and bring good things to the economies of the west. If you think oil isn't the reason all this is going on, try to explain it in North Korean terms... then suddenly it becomes way more obvious. Boycotting France isn't going to change the economics of the situation, it is just going to put up ANOTHER wall. Alex |
Damn, according to that website, Universal Studios is a French company. I never knew that. Are you guys going to boycott all movies from Universal?
That one could be tough. I hope the Matrix isn't from Universal or I'll be crossing the picket line!! :P |
Sword, I am not complaining about the US and SUVs... I am complaining about the entire western world and it's love of fossil fuels. Don't try to put my in an anti-US spin... I refuse categorically to discuss politics anymore here, it is pointless. Notice I said "western world"... that includes Canada....
This isn't ANTI-US... it is ANTI-getting up the ass from some dictator because we are all stupid enough to lube up and back towards him. Spin that. Alex |
Oh, I looked quick... NISSAN is owned by Renault now... so I trust nobody will buy a Nissan anymore either... and I am sure you will all get rid of your alcatel DSL modems...
Tee-hee... this is fun. Alex |
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Sare, you've gotta just smile at Raw Alex sometimes, he loves to bash the US while he counts his US money and drives his US Harley Davidson. He is a contradiction to himself, but we love him anyway. :nyanya: edit: my dang quote wasn't working right Last edited by Carrie at Feb 26 2003, 02:15 PM |
If you're boycotting everything French,
are you going to give the statue of liberty back? |
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Fuck the UN, it doesn't work. Never has, never will and forget the French - they are not worth fucking. France will eventually collapse |
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http://www.awrats.com which now stands for: Adult Webmasters Rallying Against Terrorist States or AWRATS................. It now does a zero refresh to the boycott page.... I will leave it that way until we don't need it any more :) (dont worry about what AWRATS was originally going to mean...lolololol)[/b][/quote] Your AWESOME!!! :wnw: |
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I don't talk politics here anymore for that exact reason. Alex |
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the continued increase in demand for fossil fuels in the US (131 billions gallons last year, if numbers I have read are correct) - is something that continues to put the western world at the feet of these tin pot dictators... You are clearly putting the Western World's Oil problems upon the feet of the U.S. now.... Spin that |
sarettah, the answer to your question involves alot of things "political", such as CAFE regulations, the nature of transportation systems and their funding, etc. There is no intention in the slightest to bash american in particular, it is to bash all western people who use fuel in a wasteful manner and then are surprised that they are supporting tyranical leaders all over the world.
It isn't US bashing - it is stating facts and looking at more productive things to do than stop drinking evian... the amount of effort that would have to be put in to get france to say "go ahead and bomb them" would be better spent changing the economics of the whole situation... No spin, no bullshit. Boycotting france is fun and all, but it is hardly going to change the oil economy, no? Alex |
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The problem of the moment is Jacques ChIraq and his love affair with Saddam Hussein....... Whether I am for or against invading Iraq doesn't even matter.... What matters is that when we, the western world, are at the U.N., that we present a United Front.... Leave the bickering and the grandstanding in the back room. France does not want any part of that, Germany is not in support of the U.S. on it either, but they are not standing up in the U.N. and showboating about it... anyway, got to go to a meeting... later |
sarettah, sorry, but France is just an itch... people are hoping to scratch it and make it go away... but like any itch, that could be an indication of a more serious problem.
Don't get lost in the details, don't lose site of the forest because of the trees... stand back a few paces, and see what this has to do in the overall situation. Try to find the reasons that France supported UN resolution 1441 but cannot support to current call for quick military action. Most importantly, ask this simple question: Is Saddam any more of a problem than he was a month ago? Is he any more likely to use weapons of mass destruction today than he was in December? While inspections continue, that answer is no. Is Saddam building more weapons of mass destruction right now? I don't think he would do that while inspections are ongoing. So the question is: Why military action today instead of in a month, or 2 months, or 6 months? All the boycotting of things french (and german, and russian, see : http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1430...623_1_A,00.html ) doesn't change the situation. Answer the question above honestly, without spin, without getting into "they have missles that go 5 miles further than they are suppose to, maybe, possibly perhaps" and try to figure out why there are a number of people and counties that are having a hard time with all of this... Alex |
Why military action today instead of in a month, or 2 months, or 6 months?
************************************************ because of the weather.... Alex, you are saying EXACTLY what fuckers were saying about Hitler back ion a day. "Leave him a lone, Germany is not a threat.." we all know waht happned than, right? |
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Intelligence and communications are worlds apart from the late 1930's to today. |
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Intelligence and communications are worlds apart from the late 1930's to today.[/b][/quote] yeah, but the idiots of the world are all the same... human nature hasn't changed at all in the last 5000 years |
best from Netpond:
Yes littleC it is all about the oil. After all if you look back thru history of every war that USA has been a part of, it was all about plundering. We plundered the fuck out of Germany and Japan after the world wars for example. It's amazing there is even countries left there, we plundered them so badly. Desert Storm 91, we plundered the hell out of Kuwait after we liberated it. The entire nation lives in poverty because we took everything from the entire nation. Vietnam, we plundered as much as possible on our way out. Korea, we took every last grain of rice. Somolia, it was all about plundering their ghettos. We plundered those ghettos good. Yugoslavia, fuck yeah we plundered it. Got every last damn yugoslavian basketball player and kidnapped them as our bounty there. We force them to play in the NBA now. It's always about the "oil" or whatever, when the USA is going to war. Like I said, look back through history, everyone we have ever gone to war with, we have plundered and robbed them to the point of non-existance, and then refused to help rebuild or help them in any way. PS: I hope you understand sarcasm. Sword ::: Get a Porche 911 Turbo! Wed Feb 26 16:07:57 2003 - 65.221.88.219 - message #210337 |
No Serge, I did not say "leave him alone"... please don't put words in my mouth... you make it sound like I would like nothing more than everyone to walk away and stop paying any attention to him. That is the fathest things from the truth. (and, I should note, once again, common debating technique of attempting to discredit the messenger, rather than discussing the message)
Serge, the weather will just as good for an attack 6 months from now as it is today... what's the difference? Keep a close eye on him. Let the inspections continue. Keep a strong military option on the table... but the rush to war is just that... I don't see what is different today in the situation that wasn't there a week ago that says "today we blow him up"... While that is going on, attempt to change the economics of the situation so that in the long run, it don't happen again. Otherwise it will be "replacement Saddam" that will fuck us all over again in the future. Alex |
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If you don't think it is about oil, then try to figure the difference between North Korea (nuclear armed, firing test missles actively, etc) vs Iraq (might have weapons, nothing found yet except for missles that might be able to go 15 miles further than the UN allows). There is ONE major difference, and it is what is under the ground in the two countries... one is poor and without the ability to feed it's people, and the other sits on the largest oil reserves in the world. If you can't see the importance of oil in the discussion, then you mainlined the koolaid. Alex |
Best from GFY!
forwarded from my "Ex-Marine" Father in law.. thought it was appropriate to share on this thread... Evil Chris should come tell us his alternate plan of diplomacy... ;-)) > > Dear Dad, > > > > A funny thing happened to me yesterday at Camp Bondsteel (Bosnia): A > French > > army officer walked up to me in the PX, and told me he thought we > > (Americans) were a bunch of cowboys and were going to provoke a war in > > Iraq. > > He said if such a thing happens, we wouldn't be able to count on the > > support > > of France. > > > > I told him that it didn't surprise me. Since we had come to France's > rescue > > in World War I, World War II, Vietnam, and the Cold War, their ingratitude > > and jealousy was due to surface [again] at some point in the near future > > anyway. > > > > I also told him that is why France is a third-rate military power with a > > socialist economy and a bunch of pansies for soldiers. I additionally told > > him that America, being a nation of deeds and action, not words, would do > > whatever it had to do, and France's support, if it ever came, was only for > > show anyway. > > > > Just like in ALL NATO exercises, the US would shoulder 85% of the burden, > > and provide 85% of the support, as evidenced by the fact that this French > > officer was shopping in the American PX, and not the other way around. > > > > He began to get belligerent at that point, and I told him if he would like > > to, I would meet him outside in front of the Burger King and whip his ass > > in > > front of the entire Multi-National Brigade East, thus demonstrating that > > even the smallest American had more fight in him than the average > > Frenchman. > > > > He called me a barbarian cowboy and walked away in a huff. > > > > With friends like these, who needs enemies? > > > > Dad, tell Mom I love her, > > > > Your loving daughter, > > > > Mary Beth Johnson LtCol., USMC by GregX |
... hmmmm ... just bought some more french wine and drove it home with my brandnew SLK ... gotta love it !!!
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That is perhaps the most asinine thing you have written in a while. I simply pointed out the absurdity of assuming it is all about oil, when throughout history USA has made a point of NOT plundering or robbing countries it has warred with. In fact quite the opposite, USA has gone far above what any other country has in history to rebuild and strengthen it's post-war opponents. Nothing more than a look at history. You really went off the deep end trying to say it was an attempt to discredit and mock values. No one else needs to "spin that" as you say. You're spinning in circles all by yourself. |
Sword, you entire opinion starts from the assumption that someone said the US is going to plunder Iraq.
That isn't the point. The free flow of oil is... putting a friendly regime in charge of the largest oil reserves in the world is a very important part of this whole situation. As soon as someone says "maybe it's not a good idea" and "all you want is the oil" you jump all the way over to "america plunders the world". That just isn't the case, and nobody suggests it. All you were doing is sarcastically belittling the other person for the opinion, not the opinion itself. Don't think so? "Maybe you need to lay off the yayo or something" - suggesting my comments aren't important because I have taken something... that's sad - and as a result, you dismiss everything I say without an answer (except to repeat yourself that America is not a plunderer, which I never said it was...) Try actually dicussing the place of oil in the whole situation, and why Iraq is different from North Korea... don't attack me, look at the idea put forward and come up with real reasons... Alex |
Alex I wasn't trying to be down on you. Nor was I trying to be down to the other person in my post on Netpond. That's my way of saying what I feel. I think to examine how much importance the oil issue is, it was important to consider what happened at the end of other wars. My way of stating it with sarcasm, was just that, sarcasm for the sake of making a point. Not trying to discredit or mock anyone.
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Sword, I think you misunderstood what Claudia was trying to get at:
It would be, IMHO, foolish to think that the US isn't going to Iraq for the oil. Yes, they want to get control of the oil (and to get solid control over OPEC) by having a democratic government that is propped up by US dollars of support... to be indirectly in control of the largest reserves around. No, they are not going to "plunder", but what is the difference between Iraq and North Korea (besides the obvious fact that NK is actually nuclear armed, and Saddam doesn't appear to be) - hint, it's under ground, and it ain't dirt. What do you think about THIS? Alex |
Can I make a suggestion to all our Canadian friends
Please concentrate on the things you do well - Brewing Excellent Beers :stout: , having Beautiful women and incredible Strip clubs :groucho: , Curling, Cirque du Soleil, Hockey and getting paid in American Dollars for your work/porn efforts and please stay out of US Politics - the US will get the job done and we'll all be better off for it! |
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Vick, you got it.
:ph34r: Alex |
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Just to add a little fuel to the fire...
France's protest against the war has much more to do with oil than the US's reasons for war. They have much more to lose when the back door oil deals they currently have (in violation of the UN embargo) are ended then the US has to gain. As far as the gas guzzling SUV's - there are curently 22 million of them regestered in the US about 10% of the total US vehicles. Pick another target. As for the amount of oil the US buys, Why is this a concern for other countries ? OPEC pumps it out of the ground and we BUY it. I for one am more than a little tired of people from outside the US bitching about what we do within our borders. You want to oppose the WAR, fine that is a global concern. If you do not live and pay taxes in the US you do NOT have any right to Bitch about what we drive. Bitch about what we do and do not spend our money on. Tell us what our tax rates on anything should be. Bottom line is the US domestic issues are just that, DOMESTIC issues, if your not paying US taxes you have NO right to have an opinion on them. I can sit here all day long and list what I feel is wrong with the political systems of other countries, however, that is none of my business. By they way, my real hope for the war in IRAQ is it is simply a stepping stone to put a force in place to keep the entire region under control. If we are indeed moving towards a single world government I am very much in favor of ours. |
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France's National Petroleum company has a deal with Iraq for cheap oil BELOW market price. France has the MOST to lose in a war option they will have to pay full price for oil and that will hurt their ecnomy even more than its hurting now AND once we get in there and find all the stuff sadam has been hideing that came from French comnpanies and french scientist....Then we will see why they dont want a war Serge, where is that pic of you fucking Osama... you should put Chirac and sadam instead |
well here is the deal. I have french friends..I am not going to starve them. I am also not going to cut off all contact. Also, living in the UK it is a LOT harder to turn your back on French goods than it may be in N. America. Hell, half the sodas in the supermarket are bought over there and imported here because it is cheaper. Train and bus companies are owned by the French. So, I wouldn't be able to go anywhere on public transport, etc.
There are many reasons not to like things France does..the UK can just talkto you about that until you go blue in the face. You all have EVERY right to boycott anything you want to and to a degree I understand but sorrry, I would be a liar if I said I was going to avoid their products. I don't activly search them out either. There are other countries in this world whose goods I would boycott first. |
I had a date last week with a guy and we drank FRENCH wine, talked about putting a FRENCH drain in my yard, he FRENCH kissed me and he had the personality of a FRENCH fry. I'm boycotting him :okthumb:
Face it - unless we're growing our own crops, walking everywhere (including to conventions - last I checked, planes didn't fly by having all the passengers waving their arms up and down :awinky: ), we're living in a grass hut, going shoeless, watching goats mate for entertainment (Serge is excluded), none of us is using oil for heating our homes, and we have a cotton field and/or sheep in the back yard and we're making our own textiles, we're ALL just as dependent on fossil fuels as the next person. Just because you get 10 MPG better in YOUR car doesn't mean squat. I have a rule: no one gets to criticize what I wear, what I drive, what I eat or what I live in unless they're paying for it :nyanya: |
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I'm surprised you have not come up with the idea of passing a law that says all motor vehicles must be painted shit brown with no power steering or brakes, no A/C, etc. That way, they wouldn't be cool and nobody would drive them. Try thinking outside the box, man. :yowsa: |
As an American, I'm proud to own cars #1 and #3 on the top WORST gas mileage cars produced in the U.S. ;-)))))
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/gasmileage/ :rokk: :rokk: :rokk: Last edited by MikeW at Feb 26 2003, 06:15 PM |
Wig, I love cars. I own cars (and a motorcycle) I use to race cars... might do it again some time soon... I read alot of car magazines...
Would you like to join Vick in asking me not to take part in these discussions? I can handle that just fine. Alex :mellow: |
Alex,
I am not surprised you do not find my post (and parody of your anti-gun rant) funny. After all, you said humor was not my strong point. However, to answer your question... nope, i won't ask you to not take part. not my place. it is a free world (for the most part) and I certainly respect anyones right to say what they believe. In fact, I think the more you post the better. I get a good laugh. :D |
Nahh, wig, I learned something today... I am going to go pick up a good conservative manual of some sort, and start toeing the party line around here. Having any other ideas than "kill them all, amen" is pretty much not popular around here. There are people I thought could actually see things from both sides, appreciate that there is more than one opinion, instead I find that they are narrow minded... and that they prefer to point and snicker rather than actual think about the world around them.
I have alot of work to do. This isn't productive. 'nuff said. Alex :zzz: |
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In my opinion, North Korea is a bigger threat than Iraq and I doubt many in the US administration see it differently. Diplomacy, in the eyes of many, has failed with Iraq. Many Diplomatic efforts will still be made with North Korea. |
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